the green flame

a reply to: framedragged

I wonder how an ultrasound bubble would affect sub-surface craft? I keep thinking of all of those reports of USOs that speed through the water at hundred of knots, then pop into the air..

a reply to: clay2 baraka

This is one of those areas that I feel really supports the vacuum corridor narrative. While it stems from a very different mechanism, we know supercavitation is a real phenomena and have applied the tech to torpedoes. Those torpedoes are touchy because they generate their bubble only at one point, but if you can use sound to effectively knock molecules out of your way, then you could easily have multiple control points. It also shouldn't matter what the molecules are, you'll just have to turn the volume up as they get heavier or more viscous.

A bit off topic, a bit not, just a thought I had. Getting a vacuum blimp under water might be a bit of a pain... really gotta wonder how many demonstrators/models have been around all these years.

a reply to: framedragged

That always reminds me of this:

Same principle, drag reduction using sonics, but in this case, you are actually ionizing the molecules further reducing drag..

a reply to: clay2 baraka

Ooooo, I'd never seen that demonstration before, that was awesome. Way cooler to watch than liquefaction.

Man, now I can't stop thinking about the momentum transfer between a speaker diaphragm (or whatever generates our ultrasound) and the airflow around the device. Put it on a plane and you can divert some of the air intake towards generating your ultrasound. Put one of those focusable sound cannon devices on the nose, strip some electrons off your exhaust, and ionize the air in front of the nose too.

What about ufo's and the BBT's though? If they aren't air breathing then they're reflecting ambient air molecules to generate the sound waves. Maybe the skin can act as ultrasound generator all on its own and just change the pressure distribution about the craft. Turn it on in front and off behind and away you go suction style. Strip some electrons off your power generator and shuttle them in whatever direction you're going for a more stable bubble boundary.

But then why the 3 lights on the bottom?

originally posted by: framedragged
a reply to: clay2 baraka
But then why the 3 lights on the bottom?

Plasma [generated] ultrasound emitters?..
www2.warwick.ac.uk...

a reply to: clay2 baraka

You know you and frame got me thinking with your last few posts. In regards to drag mitigation and heat mitigation (from drag) on hypersonic platforms.

What if they use the laser/microwave beam method previously discussed which is already being pulsed but modify it so the pulse creating the plasma bloom just in front of the nose of the craft is at ultrasonic frequencies? The plasma bloom will now expand in pulses that are ultrasonic. Hopefully some momentum transfer happens ultrasonically vibrating the air around the plasma bloom creating basically a ultrasonic bubble of reduced drag big enough for the aircraft to fit in. The aircraft basically constantly flies into this bubble that forms in front of the craft. It would outrun it if it weren't generating in front of the craft and instead on the craft. So It needs the laser to do it instead of a direct plasma ultrasonic emitter (one in contact with aircraft) so that it doesn't out run this bubble if it was being generated by the crafts skin it's self instead of a laser shooting travelling at "C" in front of the craft. Which it could never outrun.

Not sure how much lift the bird would have at this point. But if you are travelling hypersonically, the plane would probably be inclined to go the path of least resistance which would be the ultrasonic corridor as if it were on rails and pushed like a rocket by it's engines. I imagine it would be more like a bullet shooting down a gun barrel then flying.

There would of course be some other tricks to be pulled like making sure some of that hypersonic air makes it into the engines. But that may be where the same Laser/Microwave induced plasma bloom "virtual" engine cowling could come in affect.

But you would have the benefits of a plasma sheath reducing drag but using a ultrasonic sheath instead eliminating the pesky abrading plasma is said to do to the skins of the birds.

I dunno I don't exactly have all my thoughts composed enough to really explain what I'm thinking but I wanted to get them down in a post before work distracts me enough to forget my train of thought.

So what color is a plasma bloom in the atmosphere? Violet? Dull yellowish white? If dull yellowish white then it could explain some things in regards to dull yellowish white lights going from horizon to horizon very quickly. Maybe it's not the craft you are seeing but the plasma bloom in front of it. What if the ultrasound sheath idea is a way to be: one be safer for the skins of the planes by eliminating plasma contact, Two: reduce the tale tell signature of the plasma sheath by making the plasma not a sheath anymore but just a small ball in front of the bird. SO at really high altitudes it would be less noticeable visually?

Any physicists wanna chime in with their thoughts?

a reply to: clay2 baraka
Well that link has an infuriating lack of specific information lol. So tantalizing, yet so far.

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: clay2 baraka
The aircraft basically constantly flies into this bubble that forms in front of the craft.

I still wonder if that would provide an additional boost just from the pressure differential between the front and back of the craft. Though if you're flying faster than air molecules are moving about then no air molecules can give you a boost from behind... Hmm, maybe not then.

Not sure how much lift the bird would have at this point. But if you are travelling hypersonically, the plane would probably be inclined to go the path of least resistance which would be the ultrasonic corridor as if it were on rails and pushed like a rocket by it's engines. I imagine it would be more like a bullet shooting down a gun barrel then flying.

Ah, but lift is the path of least resistance. As long as you have some thrust vectoring and air intake you should be able to steer with no lift/control surfaces while in the bubble, assuming the bubble doesn't cover the exhaust fully. And it would probably be really hard to get out of the bubble path if you were going super fast too. You'd skip off the 'walls' in any direction.

Laser/Microwave induced plasma bloom "virtual" engine cowling could come in affect.

I love this concept. Seems pretty reasonable too.

But you would have the benefits of a plasma sheath reducing drag but using a ultrasonic sheath instead eliminating the pesky abrading plasma is said to do to the skins of the birds.

There's also when holes in the plasma form and suddenly there's a lot of friction and shear on one part of the skin.

So what color is a plasma bloom in the atmosphere? Violet? Dull yellowish white?

The color of lightning. Granted, if you pump energy into it just right than you can fill up specific energy levels and pop off lots of colors. There's a nice picture of the emission spectra for air at this [link]https://www.itp.uni-hannover.de/~zawischa/ITP/atoms.html[/url] under the 'Lightining' section.

If dull yellowish white then it could explain some things in regards to dull yellowish white lights going from horizon to horizon very quickly. Maybe it's not the craft you are seeing but the plasma bloom in front of it. What if the ultrasound sheath idea is a way to be: one be safer for the skins of the planes by eliminating plasma contact, Two: reduce the tale tell signature of the plasma sheath by making the plasma not a sheath anymore but just a small ball in front of the bird. SO at really high altitudes it would be less noticeable visually?

I definitely always assumed it was a plasma bloom that was visible for the yellow-streak-across-the-sky-that-I'll-never-see.™ Seems like there's a lot of benefits to be had with such a setup.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

Could any of you gents put it in laymans terms?

I thought plasma was a particular hot substance, think plasma rifle fires a hot gas "gloop" of moltern substance.

Is plasma made of any type of matter and what is the correlation between plasma and ultrasound.

Then, what is the link between sound (is ultrasound the same as sound?) and a "bubble" around a leading edge or an entire vehicle?

Appreciated.

a reply to: Forensick

From Wiki.:

"A plasma can be created by heating a gas or subjecting it to a strong electromagnetic field applied with a laser or microwave generator. This decreases or increases the number of electrons, creating positive or negative charged particles called ions,[2] and is accompanied by the dissociation of molecular bonds, if present.[3]

The presence of a non-negligible number of charge carriers makes plasma electrically conductive so that it responds strongly to electromagnetic fields. Like gas, plasma does not have a definite shape or a definite volume unless enclosed in a container. Unlike gas, under the influence of a magnetic field, it may form structures such as filaments, beams and double layers."

Plasma doesn't necessarily have to be a hot glowing substance.

a reply to: Forensick

We're just speculating about what you could potentially do if you could generate a plasma which could produce ultrasonic waves in the atmosphere.

Plasmas are just what you get when you put so much energy into a gas that its electrons jump ship and go their own way. The e/m interaction between the positive and negative ions in plasmas give them lots of unique properties. One is that plasmas vibrate. This means you can do the same thing you do with a speaker diaphragm and vibrate the plasma just right right to produce sound waves. 'Ultrasonic' sound waves are just sound waves above the range of our hearing. It's just sound waves that are too high pitched for us to hear.

Based on some scientific papers and a forum mystery from last year there has been some speculation that you can move air out of an airplane's way using a plasma generated ultrasound bubble, which could result in a plane experiencing much less fricitonal drag as it flew/moved through the atmosphere.

Definitely a lot of rabbit holes to explore if you feel like losing some time to the potentially mundane or the possibly fantastic hehe.

originally posted by: Forensick
a reply to: BASSPLYR

Could any of you gents put it in laymans terms?

I thought plasma was a particular hot substance, think plasma rifle fires a hot gas "gloop" of moltern substance.

Is plasma made of any type of matter and what is the correlation between plasma and ultrasound.

Then, what is the link between sound (is ultrasound the same as sound?) and a "bubble" around a leading edge or an entire vehicle?

Appreciated.

I suspect bubble first encapsulates the craft starting from the back and a corridor projected in front. The immediate section from the back is then collapsed. So there is a potential for pushing and pulling occuring in the corridor at the same time.

a reply to: framedragged

Something to consider.

What's the speed of sound in a plasma? (yes there's a formula on line on Wikipedia)

Suppose it's higher (or at least one mode is higher) than the pressure-driven speed of sound in an uncharged gas?
After all, the propagation and dissipation of fluctuations may be transmitted electromagnetically as well as by regular mechanical pressure.

What if you are going "subsonic" relative to a plasma but supersonic relative to an uncharged gas?

Suppose your supersonic shock (without plasma) is transferred into electromagnetic modes (in plasma)? Might you hear the boom less if the shock being dissipated electromagnetically by (making stuff up) coupling to the ionosphere or the ground?

Why that's so simple the equation is:

c_s = (\gamma ZkT_e/m_i)^[1/2] = 9.79\times10^5\,(\gamma ZT_e/\mu)^[1/2]\,\mbox[cm/s],

Anyone wanna do the math cause I'm so bad at math I think 2+2 is 22

a reply to: mbkennel

Are you saying that plasmas can even help dissipate sound if finessed just right?



As I've said before Plasma is your Friend.

a reply to: mbkennel




So if you could MB, explain this equation and what it means. I think it's saying something important but again I ain't so great with math.

Alfvén velocity, the speed of the waves resulting from the mass of the ions and the restoring force of the magnetic field:
v_A = B/(4\pi n_im_i)^[1/2] = 2.18\times10^[11]\,\mu^[-1/2]n_i^[-1/2]B\,\mbox[cm/s]


I always liked Nobel Laureate Alfven. I have a book written by one of his students called the big bang never happened by Eric Learner. It's basically about plasma cosmology refuting the big bang.

bigbangneverhappened.org...

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
Why that's so simple the equation is:

c_s = (\gamma ZkT_e/m_i)^[1/2] = 9.79\times10^5\,(\gamma ZT_e/\mu)^[1/2]\,\mbox[cm/s],

Anyone wanna do the math cause I'm so bad at math I think 2+2 is 22

Well, we won't know what an achievable state of charge "Z" (how many ions per molecule or something like that) or the electron temperature would be in practice.

In regular fluids there is just one speed of sound (propagating pressure waves). In solids which support shear, there are multiple speeds of sound (consider earthquakes). In a plasma there could be many different types of propagation of waves which could all be considered "sound", or ones which couple to mechanical sound.

Sound happens when you press on a fluid, right? So if this fluid also has ways it can propagate disturbances through a coupled fluid & magnetohydrodynamic effect then you could potentially transmit energy & pressure away faster than mechanical motion (regular sound). Think about it: speed of sound is higher in helium than nitrogen oxygen (party balloon talking). Now if you have free electrons which are much much lighter than even hydrogen, if you can couple a significant amount of energy into that type of propagating sound instead of regular old sonic-boom-making sound, then the effect of you moving through the fluid at 4000 nmi/hr wouldn't necessarily make a huge pressure shockwave (and presumably also create drag on you). If you were going what would be 'subsonic' through plasma then it would be nice and easy. Now the trick is to get your motion coupled into the plasma propagating mode substantially. (In practice all would be excited to some degree).

BTW Eric Lerner is a total crackpot w.r.t. big bang. Certainly now the evidence for mainstream big bang cosmology is extensive.

a reply to: mbkennel

Yay, the professional has arrived! Man, plasma is such a beast. Lenz's law, phonons, and ion currents all at once, e/m waves going all over the place. What an analytic nightmare o.O

E/M momentum and energy transfers though, that's straightforward enough. Seems like a damn good way to 'dampen' the physical noise levels.

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
Why that's so simple the equation is:

c_s = ( (How many directions can the ions move)*(what's the charge on the ions)*(boltzman's constnat)*(Electron Temperature)/(divided by the ion mass proton) )^[1/2]

If you make a ton of graphs of this while changing one variable at a time you can get a picture of the possible speeds

I'd kill for some math syntax tools lol.

a reply to: [post=19131046]mbkennel

Well Lerner does have the crazy stare in the pic at the link. But I was more interested in Alfven's work at the time which is why I picked up the book. This was like in 2000 back in college and before the internet was as easy to navigate as it is today for research. So I had to pick up the only book I could that talked about him.

My interest at the time was Alfven's descriptions of plasma vorticies.

"Now the trick is to get your motion coupled into the plasma propagating mode substantially. (In practice all would be excited to some degree)." Any ideas on how to achieve that coupling and keep it stable?

a reply to: framedragged

Oh no don't let me have all the fun making graphs with every possible permutation in the equation, I insist you have the honors of having first crack at them.

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: [post=19131046]mbkennel

"Now the trick is to get your motion coupled into the plasma propagating mode substantially. (In practice all would be excited to some degree)." Any ideas on how to achieve that coupling and keep it stable?

Protip: when a physicist says something like, well the 'trick is xxx' --- unless it's something he's done --- that's an insider way of saying "that's really pretty #ing hard and i have no idea how it would work"