Donetsk rebels call for a truce

originally posted by: victor7
Rebels are calling for truce to cater to humanitarian needs. Block for block fighting in a nearly besieged city will result in more civilian lives hurt and lost.

Ok, that is a fair point....

But then you say:

originally posted by: victor7
Russia should and need not intervene officially. There is a big unguarded gap opened in border around the Luhansk. Russia just needs do send in truckloads and truckloads of anti-tank missiles, RPGs, body armor, drones, ammo etc. Even flatbeds with tarp covers and semi trucks with closed trailers can be used to send tanks, APCs and artillery guns. That will really cost Kiev Junta force some heavy losses in all men, material and money.

So you don't really care for the "humanitarian needs" of the people then - you just want to use it as an excuse for Russia to re-arm the rebels, pro-long the war and cause more death.

Glad to see you've shown your true colours there.

originally posted by: victor7
Btw, Civilians were not getting killed when rebels had the control of the areas. This started to happen only when ATO started and indiscriminate shelling, rocketing and Ariel bombing started to happen. WHO IS THE REAL TERRORIST HERE ??

Actually the rebels have been accused of killing people both in the East and in the Crimea, where Tartars opposed to the Russian takeover have all "mysteriously disappeared" - like Seiran Zinedinov and his colleagues

As for the comments about how bad the Government is - show me one country where, if armed men took over cities and attacked Police/Army units, they wouldn't respond in kind.

You always dodge this point, but isn't this exactly how Russia dealt with the Chechens? Except in that case, hundreds of thousands were killed, many in extra-judicial executions by Russian forces. At least this conflict has actually had relatively few deaths, given the scale of the fighting.

a reply to: victor7

The Ukraine government has established safe corridors for civilians to leave some of these areas and for supplies to get in to the civilians.

Any reason you ignored that info?

originally posted by: lightedhype
They are calling for a truce...'Sounds like things are heating up' - Indeed.

????

do u think the ukranian gov will accept the truce ? I think the russians are upto something hence things heating up hopefully im wrong..

a reply to: robbeh

do u think the ukranian gov will accept the truce ? I think the russians are upto something hence things heating up hopefully im wrong..

It is all going to depend on the separatists, and we have seen in the past they don't take to a ceasefire very well.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

I hope they just over-run the rebels and be done with it.

I also noticed that the Ukrainian Defence minister has said Russian forces have been - and I quote - "trying to provoke us" on the border but they have so far resisted. I assume he means the artillery barrages and I have to commend the Ukrainian Army for resisting the urge to fire back, as this is probably what Russia wants.

Now, they aren't biting, they are going to try and use the "humanitarian" excuse but have been told in no uncertain terms by the US, NATO and the UN that this will be seen as an "invasion" and under international law, this allows intervention whether approved by the UNSC or not.

a reply to: stumason

I hope they just over-run the rebels and be done with it.

I think Russia has been surprised at the way Ukraine military has handled the situation up til now.

Russia thought hey we took Crimea so easily the south and east should be a cake walk, but surprise, surprise, surprise they stood strong and took care of business and now Russia is scrambling to figure out what to do next.

Crossing the border with any military arms would be a grave mistake and hopefully Putin is figuring this out finally.

Although I still think he may try.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Putin tried the same play he used in Georgia...

Create a situation that forces Ukraine to respond to Russian aggression in such a manner Russia can spin it to justify an invasion.

Ukraine not only held their ground, they demonstrated stellar restraint and in the end have embarrassed Putin / Russia by calling them out at every attempt.

The longer this drags on the more Putin / Russia will lose.

a reply to: Xcathdra

The longer this drags on the more Putin / Russia will lose.

Which brings us to the separatists asking for a truce.

What do they really have in mind, because if Ukraine excepts does Russia see a good time to ramp up their peacekeeping charade or do they finally wipe their dirty hands clean of the mess they caused in Ukraine.

Also what does Ukraine do about Crimea as that situation has only been put on the back burner for now, and they have said it isn't over concerning it.

Will Russia decide to send troops into Ukraine when they take back what is rightfully theirs, seems things could still get ugly.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

The truce, imo, is only to allow for the rebels to receive support / aid / supplies / weapons / manpower from Russia. A truce is where both sides would stop fighting with the goal of talking to end the situation. Ukraine is not going to allow Russia to have the South and East of Ukraine, and the rebels are not going to accept the idea of surrender, so whats the point of the truce?

I think Russia has been trying to bluff this entire time and when it came to lay the cards down, Russia folded. Aside from Russia attacking the evidence presented on MH17, Crimea, and Ukraine, they have not gone out of their way to support their dismissals, especially to the UN.

I truly think Putin assumed that countries would just take their word for it, as was common practice during the Soviet Union. What we see Russia doing in the UN reminds me of the confrontation between the US and USSR over the Cuban missile crisis, where the USSR kept stating the US was lying - right up to the US showing the evidence, and making the Soviets like like liars, which they were.

Russia has satellites - where is their satellite info countering the info released by the west?


This whole crackdown on Russian media is a way for Putin to remain in office by hiding the truth from the Russian people. A tactic used during the USSR. I think Putin is out of touch and is living in the 1980's. The problem is I think he assumes the Russian people are living in the 1980's as well.

The problem with that mindset is the Russian people have had their taste of freedom and to all of a sudden, after 20 years, to start reverting back to the USSR policies.. The Russian people are going to ask question, where as 20 years ago they would have just accepted it.

I think if the world does not stand up to Russia, then Ukraine is the second victim. Do bad things come in 3's or is the third time the charm?

a reply to: stumason

You always dodge this point, but isn't this exactly how Russia dealt with the Chechens? Except in that case, hundreds of thousands were killed, many in extra-judicial executions by Russian forces. At least this conflict has actually had relatively few deaths, given the scale of the fighting.

That was a wrong way of dealing with matters. That does not mean "wrongs" should be repeated.

It seems only viable solution would be the SEIGE of the cities with only food, medical and basic items passing through the checkpoints. Soon residents will be get fed up with the militia and themselves rally against them to be kicked out of their lives. Militia themselves will melt away once running out of the ammo. That is the only humanitarian solution I can come up with at this point.

Kiev Army is using artillery and even very powerful Smerch MRLS on Donetsk. This has to stop right away.

Russia needs to coordinate humanitarian aid and evacuation of sick and injured.........via third party entities under the Red Cross. Only civilian reps from Moscow should be sent with such aid so to insure that it falls only into the hands of city and civic authorities not the black marketers and opportunist mafia businessmen.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Setting aside all the finger pointing etc. which lead to HOGWASH type arguments, one has to focus on real facts on the ground which are:

a) Russia is helping the rebels via machine, money and even some men at this point. In a way, a form of invasion is already taking place.

b) Ukraine's Kiev Junta is committing a slow "Kosovo" style genocide and forced displacement of people in the Eastern regions.

c) Any ceasefire, will result in both sides taking a break but also rearming and replenishing the supplies at a fast rate.


The real agreements should be that I have already mentioned before
a) Ukraine joins EU as that is what its people want the most.
b) Ukraine signs in "writing and deeds" to not join NATO for 20 years.
c) Eastern regions get some autonomy and security of rights.

To maintain a minimum basic "Human Dignity", I do not think the above 3 conditions demand much from any of the sides involved.

www.liveleak.com...

Excellent Video interview of Pro-Russia Afghan volunteer in Ukraine

Russia should provide more weapons to DPR and then 10,000 Syrians and 10,000 Afghanistani come in as volunteers and before you know more than half the Ukraine has become Donbass Republics.

Will NATO send its troops to well experienced Syrians and Afghans killing their soldiers with IED and RPGs all along backed by Russian artillery and ATGMs. Guess that would an Afghanistan for NATO alliance.

Europeans will suffer the most, US is much too far to feel the real effects.

a reply to: victor7

Russia should provide more weapons to DPR and then 10,000 Syrians and 10,000 Afghanistani come in as volunteers and before you know more than half the Ukraine has become Donbass Republics.

You really are just wanting to see a war, which makes me wonder.

Wow a closet warmonger...Amazing.

Will NATO send its troops to well experienced Syrians and Afghans killing their soldiers with IED and RPGs all along backed by Russian artillery and ATGMs. Guess that would an Afghanistan for NATO alliance.

I thought we have already been over this before...Russia isn't in a position to take NATO on by themselves, because if they could they would have by now.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

You really are just wanting to see a war, which makes me wonder.

Wow a closet warmonger...Amazing.

Well read my posts.........The DPR folks are offering cease fire but Kiev Junta does not want it. In that event, when war is basically thrown on you then you fight and fight hard.

I would prefer peace and agreements already told before. But outright surrender is not happening IMHO.

It should not happen with NeoNazis accounting for 20-30% of the Kiev Junta's fighting force.

Russia and the rebels are playing from the same book "humanitarian catastrophe" to get Russia in on the ground in some official capacity.

So a temporary ceasefire at best or none at all.

originally posted by: victor7
Setting aside all the finger pointing etc. which lead to HOGWASH type arguments, one has to focus on real facts on the ground which are:

Not really hogwash.. more along the lines of information one side does not want to hear or admit.

originally posted by: victor7
a) Russia is helping the rebels via machine, money and even some men at this point. In a way, a form of invasion is already taking place.

Russia has been "assisting" the entire time.. Its nice that you finally caught up with the rest of us who stated that from the beginning. A Russian invasion of Ukraine started the moment armed Russian troops left their bases in Crimea.

originally posted by: victor7
b) Ukraine's Kiev Junta is committing a slow "Kosovo" style genocide and forced displacement of people in the Eastern regions.

An elected government by the Ukrainian people, which is something that the Russian military cannot claim in Crimea, the east or south Ukraine, since they just arrested the legitimately elected local governments and appointed themselves. Something a Junta does by the way. A genocide is not occurring and I suggest you learn what the term means and what's needed for it to occur.

The rebels on the other side are guilty of war crimes by summary execution of local civilians. The UN charter, international law, rules of war, etc - civilians are protected class. The added charge on the rebels is using civilian population centers to engage Ukraine government forces, which is also a nono under laws named.

originally posted by: victor7
c) Any ceasefire, will result in both sides taking a break but also rearming and replenishing the supplies at a fast rate.

Again its nice to see you are catching up to the rest of us. A cease fire is a prelude to diplomatic possibilities to end the conflict. Since the rebels are not going to surrender, there is no reason for Ukraine to accept a cease fire. Anything less than unconditional surrender of the rebels is only 1 of 2 options. Option 2 would be for the rebels to go down with the ship which is what its looking like.

originally posted by: victor7
The real agreements should be that I have already mentioned before

and rejected...

originally posted by: victor7
a) Ukraine joins EU as that is what its people want the most.

From the start so once again its nice to see you catching up with the rest of us.

originally posted by: victor7
b) Ukraine signs in "writing and deeds" to not join NATO for 20 years.

Absolutely not - Ukraine is a sovereign nation and can decide what's best for their nation, which includes the decision to join NATO or not join NATO. I don't know how to make this any more clear -

The days of the Soviet Union dictating terms is over with, and its something Putin needs to comprehend. By Putin invading Ukraine, he pushed non aligned nations to the EU / West. He pushes formerly neutral nations, including Finland, to consider joining NATO. Putins claimed goal was to move NATO away from Russias borders (well, one of his many lies). His arrogance has only resulted in NATO members bordering Russia to increase their military status and to explore NATO forces being deployed in those nations. Something NATO did not do when East European countries joined NATO. Why?

out of respect for Russia and their position on the matter.

originally posted by: victor7
c) Eastern regions get some autonomy and security of rights.

Under the Ukraine constitution sure. The Ukrainian people should be able to decide how that setup will work by allowing EVERYONE to vote in fair elections, free of rebels intimidating those who don't share the same view. The voting should be conducted in a manner to exclude the number of Russian nationals sent in to rig the elections, like they did in Crimea.

Which brings us to part D
* - Russia's complete and total withdraw from Ukrainian Crimea.

originally posted by: victor7
To maintain a minimum basic "Human Dignity", I do not think the above 3 conditions demand much from any of the sides involved.

and you would be mistaken.

Russia started this mess and is continuing to keep its hands in the pot. why should Russia be rewarded for their actions? If anything they should be punished further until they stop meddling in Ukraine and until they withdraw from Crimea.

Finally, I don't think you or other pro Russians / anti west should "lecture" on human dignity. I am quite sure your Junta Nazi government in kiev, and all those Nazis Ukraine civilians who don't support Russia would agree.

Your position, tone and possibilities reeks of the Nazis and Japanese near the end of WWII. You don't get to do what Putin did and expect to come out of it smelling like roses while singing we shall overcome while being rewarded. It does not work that way and has not since the end of WWII.

However -
I think Ukraine should allow Russia to keep Crimea on one condition -
Putin and Medyev resign and are never allowed to run for national public office in Russia again. The military assets stationed in Crimea should be defensive only and Russia is prohibited from stationing Russian military on the border with Ukraine in Crimea and are not allowed to deploy their military within 100 miles of their border with Ukraine.

originally posted by: joho99
Russia and the rebels are playing from the same book "humanitarian catastrophe" to get Russia in on the ground in some official capacity.

So a temporary ceasefire at best or none at all.

Russians humanitarian ploy has already been shot down by Ukraine and the west / UN.

Any attempt by Russia to send in Russian peacekeepers will be considered an act of war / invasion of Ukraine. At which point Ukraine could ask for military assistance to defend against and remove Russian forces from Ukraine territory, including Crimea.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: joho99
Russia and the rebels are playing from the same book "humanitarian catastrophe" to get Russia in on the ground in some official capacity.

So a temporary ceasefire at best or none at all.

Russians humanitarian ploy has already been shot down by Ukraine and the west / UN.

Any attempt by Russia to send in Russian peacekeepers will be considered an act of war / invasion of Ukraine. At which point Ukraine could ask for military assistance to defend against and remove Russian forces from Ukraine territory, including Crimea.

The "humanitarian catastrophe" strategy is to win hearts and minds of the normal people and has nothing to do with what either power thinks is true

And when the Ukraine ask for military assistance what they will get is equipment and training nothing else.

the idea is to wear down your enemy with little cost to your own side using a third party

a reply to: Xcathdra

This Ukraine mess has its origination in the DC and Brussels. There is good 50% chances of world seeing a major war in a near future. That would be an "attitude correction" much required on the part of the west. Enough is enough. World needs to be at peace, so either this attitude changes by self or will be 'optimized' by extra efforts.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
My guess is that Kiev wont go for a truce .It wouldn't serve Washington unless Russia is willing to give back the Crimea which will never happen .

Personally, I think the Crimea will remain in Russian hands, and will be the price Kiev pays for a de-escalation of hostilities.