Kiev Deploys WMDs Against Eastern Ukraine

a reply to: dreamingawake

The video you shared is of the mass grave of the men kidnapped from the Protestant church.

And that changes the fact they were killed and buried by separatists, also there were more than just those from the church.

They were also innocent civilians.

a reply to: victor7

Everywhere in the world when one finds civil war and bloodshed...........Libya, Syria, Iraq, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Israel.............there is one common factor.........i.e. USA !!!

Why not just go one step further and say the US is responsible for every war that has ever happened on Earth, because that seems to be where you are heading with that statement.

How many wars has Russia had their hands in?

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: dreamingawake

The video you shared is of the mass grave of the men kidnapped from the Protestant church.

And that changes the fact they were killed and buried by separatists, also there were more than just those from the church.

They were also innocent civilians.

No it does not change that at all. I did not say that either. Wonder why that is assumed? Also it's not my question anyway...

Actually, yes I know that many of the body remains are there are from other separatist's murder of people and older remains from WWII as well.

The main point with the topic of the thread here? Is that hyperbole what the government is doing to citizens as expressed in the replies?

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

I would go further and say this that 10% change in foreign policy and 10% change in fiscal policy and I would like the rest of the world to follow the US model of economics, culture etc. ofcourse minus 1 or 2 points like gay rights, rampant weapons ownership etc.

Regarding my blame on the US for current wars, I stick to the point........... emphatically !!

Btw, if Russia used OTR-21 missile against Chechen rebels then that has to be condemned in all fairness. For example, just because US used nukes on Japan does not give rights to others to do the same.

Please find ways to deescalate not ramp up the killing of human beings !!

A way to deescalate would be for Kiev to allow Federalization in Ukraine and other items like no oppression of Russian language and culture etc. Donbass region will stay with Ukraine with such status as has been declared by the rebel leaders openly.

a reply to: victor7

A way to deescalate would be for Kiev to allow Federalization in Ukraine and other items like no oppression of Russian language and culture etc.

Nobody is repressing the Russian language in Ukraine, as that is part of the lie Russia used to try and justify a reason to send troops to Crimea.

Poroshenko said he was willing to negotiate with rebels; offer amnesty to fighters who did not have "blood on their hands"; and to protect the use of the Russian language.

www.independent.co.uk... .html

So now how does that work where you are repressing the Russian language, and yet you are going to protect the use of it?

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Nobody is repressing the Russian language in Ukraine, as that is part of the lie Russia used to try and justify a reason to send troops to Crimea.

Really? That was one of the first things on their agenda. Not sure if it was passed or not but it's a good indicator of the mindset in Kiev.

The critical question about Ukraine is the character of its new government. Well, its first act in power was an ‘ethnic nationalist’ act one: revocation of the very tolerant and multicultural language law. Even worse if passed, there is also a bill before parliament to ban Russian media in Ukraine.
Scrapping language law could question new Ukrainian admin’s democratic commitment

Edit - This is from a Hungarian news site and the law would have effected them as well.

originally posted by: Bassago

originally posted by: MrSpad
First of all how is this a WMD? The OTR-21 is a smaller more precise weapon used on tactical targets. And it has a fragmentation warhead not high explosive. Pretty much the opposite of WMD which is a weapon that causes a large amount of casualties or damage. Also this same missle was used by the Russian in the Chechen conflicts and in Georgia and nobody complained. Now you know and knowing is half the battle.

As I said I was still not initially convinced this was a WMD. That said here's what Wiki says:

Scarab A

The initial Scarab A entered service with the Soviet Army in 1975. It carries one of three types of warhead:

- 482 kg (1,063 lb) of conventional HE
- fragmentation (lethal radius more than 200 m (660 ft)
- nuclear
OTR-21 Tochka

That's the old version. Looks kind of like a WMD to me.

WMD is usually in reference to biological, chemical, and nuclear weaponry (could be extended to incendiary or radiological). Essentially it means a weapon that once used, uncontrollably and indiscriminately kills until the weapon's side effects dissipate. Typically they are designed to maximize casualties.

High-Explosive warheads are tactical weapons, regardless of what they are loaded on. A lot of soviet-era ballistic missiles are NBC-capable.

originally posted by: MrSpad
First of all how is this a WMD? The OTR-21 is a smaller more precise weapon used on tactical targets. And it has a fragmentation warhead not high explosive. Pretty much the opposite of WMD which is a weapon that causes a large amount of casualties or damage. Also this same missle was used by the Russian in the Chechen conflicts and in Georgia and nobody complained. Now you know and knowing is half the battle.

Good. So Kiev is using such heavy weapons against "terrorists".
What Russia did in Chechenya is besides the point.

Russia rebuilt what it destroyed. Kiev has no money to pay its soldiers.

The contrast is visible even to the blind.

a reply to: Bassago

Russia will not put up with this.
The Ukrainian government must know the situation is dire for the rebels, why ballistic missiles and why now?

Yessssssss!

SANCTION RUSSIA! SANCTION THAT MOTHER INTO THE GROUND!

One chemical weapon released in a US city. ONE! The true hypocrisy hasn't even begun.

a reply to: EA006

Russia will not put up with this.
The Ukrainian government must know the situation is dire for the rebels, why ballistic missiles and why now?

Considering the recent lifting of the EU weapons ban and Ukraine missile attacks and bombings of the separatist held cities I suspect they are trying to goad Russia into a misstep. All NATO needs is an excuse to pour into Ukraine and start a direct conflict with Russia.

Which is what I suspect is the west's ultimate goal in this bloody fiasco. From there they will most likely invade Crimea as well. If they accomplish all that they will then have another Russian bordering nation they can park their ICBMs on and increase their control.

a reply to: Bassago

What part of NATO stating they will not militarily intervene do people not understand?

Why are the Pro Russians gung ho on trying to push a war? A war between Russia and Ukraine already existed from the moment Russia invaded Ukraine. No amount of Russian propaganda can change that fact.

Everything Russia has done has done nothing but push countries towards NATO and the west, not away from it. This is not the cold war and Russia is not the Soviet Union. Russia no longer has the ability to force a nation into its sphere by name alone.

originally posted by: Nikola014
a reply to: stumason

And again, how's that on topic? What differences does it make if Russia used those weapons in her previous conflicts? Are you saying Ukraine isn't killing innocent civilians? And if you tell me, rebels are doing it too, then really...Any other country would interfere much sooner to protect their citizens, but no, because it's Russia were talking about, they must not do a thing. As the matter fact, they must not do a thing, while we make sanctions against them.

Seems logical.

It's on topic, as explained by MrSpad, because they weren't considered "WMD" or even unacceptable weapons when used quite merrily by Mother Russia when brutally suppressing it's own internal revolts or when it last invaded a sovereign nation to grab a slice of land..

But now the Ukraine uses them, it's using "WMD" to "kill innocent civilians"...

Give me a break.. You bitch about Western hypocrisy?

originally posted by: Bassago
Which is what I suspect is the west's ultimate goal in this bloody fiasco. From there they will most likely invade Crimea as well. If they accomplish all that they will then have another Russian bordering nation they can park their ICBMs on and increase their control.

Suspect all you like, but I am glad you're not in any high-level strategy meetings because your reasoning and foresight leave a lot to be desired.

What possible benefit could "the west" have at starting a War with Russia? It's a war we could win, yes, but at what price and for what in return? How on earth can this be the West's goal, when it was Russia which instigated this whole crisis?

And do tell me what other NATO members have "ICBM's parked" in them. More hyperbole from the pro-Russian crowd with little to no actual thinking of any kind going on.

originally posted by: EA006
Russia will not put up with this.

Why? This is precisely why I brought up Russia's own use of these missile systems. So it';s fine for the Russian's to use these weapons, but not the Ukraine?

originally posted by: EA006
The Ukrainian government must know the situation is dire for the rebels, why ballistic missiles and why now?

It may be a "ballistic missile", but it has the same punch as a Western cruise missile - it's not some city killing uber-weapon. It has a valid tactical use.

a reply to: stumason

More hyperbole from the pro-Russian crowd

Your assumptions are once again incorrect. I am not "pro-Russian" at all. Russia-neutral would be accurate. Why you may have mistakenly come to that conclusion as many do when people don't toe the western military party line is that they simply do not trust the intentions of the DoD and Pentagon or NATO but especially US MIC enforced imperialism.

So you believe NATO has not expanded militarily into many of the post Soviet states,that they are not trying to expand into Ukraine and they have no desire to ring Russia (just like Iran,) OK then.

I'm sure the US is also not currently preparing to boost weapon shipments to Ukraine either but if they do those weapons will be nice and fluffy non-WMD style that only kill people in small groups. Just a few hundred at a time so we don't hurt the infrastructure too bad.

Thanks for providing me with a brilliant example of the hyperbole I was trying to highlight....

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: stumason

More hyperbole from the pro-Russian crowd

Your assumptions are once again incorrect. I am not "pro-Russian" at all. Russia-neutral would be accurate. Why you may have mistakenly come to that conclusion as many do when people don't toe the western military party line is that they simply do not trust the intentions of the DoD and Pentagon or NATO but especially US MIC enforced imperialism.

Ok, fair enough, you're anti-west (that much is obvious - "military party line" "imperialism") but Russia neutral.... Okey dokey! Forgive us for thinking you had just stumbled through a portal from 1980's Moscow, though....

originally posted by: Bassago
So you believe NATO has not expanded militarily into many of the post Soviet states,that they are not trying to expand into Ukraine and they have no desire to ring Russia (just like Iran,) OK then.

No one is "expanding militarily" - the alliance has grown, yes, but that isn't quite the same as "military expansion". NATO has, over the past 20 years, actually reduced not only military spending but also the overall size of their armies.

And let's face it, if Russia wasn't still trying to control it's former puppets, perhaps they wouldn't feel the need to join the Alliance in the first place?

originally posted by: Bassago
I'm sure the US is also not currently preparing to boost weapon shipments to Ukraine either but if they do those weapons will be nice and fluffy non-WMD style that only kill people in small groups. Just a few hundred at a time so we don't hurt the infrastructure too bad.

I imagine they'll match, like for like, the equipment Russia has been supplying for months now.....