Kiev Deploys WMDs Against Eastern Ukraine

originally posted by: Kuroodo
a reply to: TrueBrit

I agree. The keyward is also "Mass". The destruction/effect must be massive. Not large or huge, but only massive!

Well...yes and no.

If a nut went on a killing spree, say poisoned a vat of cola in a restaurant for example and ended up murdering 10, 20 or 30 people...that would be MASS murder.

Massive murder?

Each murder is a massive tragedy to the people it affects. So a weapon that can mass murder 1000's of people at a time...IS a weapon of Mass Destruction...if it results in mass casualties, then that is exactly what it is.

a reply to: MysterX

Again, the weapons deployed in the Gaza conflict, and the Ukrainian situation, have been conventional munitions, not remotely classifiable as WMD or anywhere near the level of destructive power, which such a term was coined for.

The conflicts are both terrible, pointless, and have taken a toll of human lives which is unacceptable. But if a WMD had been deployed, then hundreds of thousands of people would have died in the first second after detonation, and hundreds of thousands more would die in the days, weeks, months and years afterward, from secondary effects.

This of course, must never come to pass.

a reply to: TrueBrit

W.M.D ?

Yeah I know but that's straight from the article title.

Anyway whether or not it is "technically" a WMD it seems to me that these numerous deployed ballistic missiles using questionable guidance systems and between a quarter - half ton of HE in the nose might by some stretch of the imagination qualify for the title.

United Nations - Weapons of Mass Destruction

Nuclear, Biological, Chemical

The above are considered to be weapons of mass destruction by the UN. The delivery method is not unless it has one of the above as a warhead.

Below is the US Criteria. It appears to be in line with Russian criteria as well.

any weapon or device that is intended, or has the capability, to cause death or serious bodily injury to a significant number of people through the release, dissemination, or impact of:

* - toxic or poisonous chemicals or their precursors
* - a disease organism
* - radiation or radioactivity

I think the source is misusing the term. Whether its intentional or accidental is in the air. My opinion is the terms used in the article were used in order to elicit the response we are seeing by some people in this thread. This is not the first time a claim like this was made. In the first incident it turned out the reports were false. I will venture a guess that this accusation, based on the article, will be the same - nonexistent.

Of course, all the Russia/Putin defenders here will be blissfully unaware/wilfully ignorant that Russia herself used these in the Chechen wars and also in the 2008 Georgia conflict....

As for "WMD" - hardly. A 1,000lb warhead? Yeah, it'll make a big hole, but most munitions dropped from aircraft are in the 500-1000lb range. It is in fact the exact same size warhead as used in the Tomahawk missile! - They are also very precise weapons, analogous to a land based cruise missile, with GLONASS guidance.

In a nutshell, a lot of bluster about nothing, really.

originally posted by: MysterX
Kiev bombs innocent civilians in Eastern Ukraine,

Hyperbole...

originally posted by: MysterX
and uses heavy military piece like tanks, gunships, jet fighters

And the separatists, who are using tanks, GRAD rocket launchers and SAM's, with backing from Russian artillery are perfectly legit?

originally posted by: MysterX
and now weapons reaching close to the destructive potential of WMD's...

Not even close - more hyperbole from the guy who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about!

A 1,000lb warhead is pretty standard across most armed forces for their missile arsenals - I assume you were as equally outraged when Russia used these missiles in Chechnya and Georgia?

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: TrueBrit

W.M.D ?

Yeah I know but that's straight from the article title.

Anyway whether or not it is "technically" a WMD it seems to me that these numerous deployed ballistic missiles using questionable guidance systems and between a quarter - half ton of HE in the nose might by some stretch of the imagination qualify for the title.

World War 2 bombs:

Azon

AZON was essentially a 1,000 lb (450 kg) general-purpose bomb with a quadrilateral 4-fin style radio controlled tail fin design as part of a "tail package" to give the half-short ton ordnance the desired guidance capability, allowing adjustment of the vertical trajectory in the yaw axis only, giving the Azon unit a laterally steerable capability and mandating the continued need to accurately release it with a bombsight to ensure it could not fall short of or beyond the target.

GB-4

Warhead Capacity: 2000 pounds (907 kg)

GB-8

Warhead Capacity: 2000 pounds (907 kg)

VB-6 Felix

Warhead Capacity: 1000 pounds (454 kg)

Bombing of Warsaw:

Luftwaffe bombers under the command of Major General Wolfram von Richthofen conducted the first major city attack of World War II, dropping 500 tons of high explosive bombs and 72 tons of incendiary bombs

Overall, Warsaw suffered approximately 40,000 civilian deaths, 40 percent of the buildings in the city were damaged, and 10 percent of the buildings destroyed.

Carpet Bombing



You can fit a half a ton of explosives in a small package. Many countries around the world did it during WW2. Many bombs dropped did not really have too much guidance to speak of.

Destruction power and death rate was......astounding.

And yet these bombs are not classified as WMDs.

As I posted earlier: WMD is a acronym used to sensationalize headlines or to make political statements.

a reply to: stumason

What a surprise i find you talking against Russia, and then you call me a western hater and tell me i can't be objective...Interesting...

Why do you bring Chechen conflict into this thread? It has nothing to do with this.
I don't really understand that much into weapons, but judging by the comments from other members, it will bring only more deaths in Ukraine, which is sad. And at the end, EU will once again widen sanctions against Russia. I wonder what will be the cause this time?

a reply to: eriktheawful

You can fit a half a ton of explosives in a small package. Many countries around the world did it during WW2. Many bombs dropped did not really have too much guidance to speak of.

Destruction power and death rate was......astounding.

And yet these bombs are not classified as WMDs. As I posted earlier:

WMD is a acronym used to sensationalize headlines or to make political statements.

Bet they were even more astounding to the people they annihilated. Maybe we should start letting the innocents on the receiving end of the non-WMD's make the final descriptive decisions as to the classification of these weapons.

a reply to: Nikola014

Not talking against Russia, just heading off the usual crowd who will use this as evidence as to why Russia should intervene, or how bad the "Nazi's" are in Kiev etc, when Russia herself has happily used these very weapons themselves and I provided examples of such.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander!

a reply to: stumason

And again, how's that on topic? What differences does it make if Russia used those weapons in her previous conflicts? Are you saying Ukraine isn't killing innocent civilians? And if you tell me, rebels are doing it too, then really...Any other country would interfere much sooner to protect their citizens, but no, because it's Russia were talking about, they must not do a thing. As the matter fact, they must not do a thing, while we make sanctions against them.

Seems logical.

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: eriktheawful

You can fit a half a ton of explosives in a small package. Many countries around the world did it during WW2. Many bombs dropped did not really have too much guidance to speak of.

Destruction power and death rate was......astounding.

And yet these bombs are not classified as WMDs. As I posted earlier:

WMD is a acronym used to sensationalize headlines or to make political statements.

Bet they were even more astounding to the people they annihilated. Maybe we should start letting the innocents on the receiving end of the non-WMD's make the final descriptive decisions as to the classification of these weapons.

While I find any kind of war or killing abhorrent, I can't help but find irony in your post. Dramatic irony to be sure.

That irony being other posts you've made how certain groups will use children to pluck heart strings, and to help make an agenda move forward.

I really do not want to see anyone killed. Especially children (being a father of 6 and a grandparent of 2, I really don't want that).

However, it still does not change the fact that the use of the letters WMD are used to sensationalize things, by both politicians and the news media.

Really? Is this hyperbole?

warning: graphic scenes


Ukraine government is not responsible for the dead citizens in the video?

a reply to: Nikola014

Forget about condemning the use of ballistic missiles on civilians, the EU is lifting any arms sanctions over Ukraine.

www.liveleak.com...

"During a recent meeting of the Council of Europe in Brussels, leaders of EU member states agreed 'on the quiet' to remove restrictions on exports to Kiev of equipment that could be used for internal repression," the ministry said in a statement on its website. "Exports of military technologies and equipment were also allowed."

a reply to: dreamingawake

Ukraine government is not responsible for the dead citizens in the video?

Well had the separatists not been using human shields much of this wouldn't have happened, but if you want to get into killing of civilians...here you go.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: dreamingawake

Ukraine government is not responsible for the dead citizens in the video?

Well had the separatists not been using human shields much of this wouldn't have happened, but if you want to get into killing of civilians...here you go.

Those people laying on the ground outside of homes as shared in the video I posted, are those brought down in streets by shelling just because they are walking down them: Are human shields?

The video you shared is of the mass grave of the men kidnapped from the Protestant church.

a reply to: victor7

"During a recent meeting of the Council of Europe in Brussels, leaders of EU member states agreed 'on the quiet' to remove restrictions on exports to Kiev of equipment that could be used for internal repression," the ministry said in a statement on its website. "Exports of military technologies and equipment were also allowed."

Why didn't you supply a link to the original source, well here you go...

rt.com...

Funny that Russia doesn't want Ukraine to have anything that could bring an end to the separatists terror campaign, because they know their slight advantage over Ukraine military is coming to an end.

Putin really didn't think this all out or he would have seen this coming...Sorry Vlad there goes your neighborhood.

a reply to: eriktheawful

I can't help but find irony in your post. Dramatic irony to be sure.

That irony being other posts you've made how certain groups will use children to pluck heart strings, and to help make an agenda move forward.

Well I always like a good irony, especially if it's dramatic.

That said I am unaware of any specific posts I've made criticizing the use of children to "pluck the heart strings" if it's a valid point or issue.

Example:

We need to pass "insert agenda item here" "It's for the CHILDREN!" = bad
vs.
Stop dropping giant bombs and ballistic missiles on the CHILDREN! = good

originally posted by: Nikola014
a reply to: stumason

And again, how's that on topic? What differences does it make if Russia used those weapons in her previous conflicts? Are you saying Ukraine isn't killing innocent civilians? And if you tell me, rebels are doing it too, then really...Any other country would interfere much sooner to protect their citizens, but no, because it's Russia were talking about, they must not do a thing. As the matter fact, they must not do a thing, while we make sanctions against them.

Seems logical.

The point is, and see if you can follow along. This is a weapon Russia has used in two different conflicts. And in both those conflicts it was not considered to be a WMD nor did anybody anywhere make a big deal about it. Why? because it is a tactical weapon. No more a WMD than a mortor or artillery. And of course Ukraine moved to protect its citizens. Why would they allow Russia to cause more trouble and kill more people in its territory than it already has. However, do not worry the lack of support from the locals has doomed the rebels. It also kind ruins Russias
entire attempt to claim that those people are so poorly treated that they want out.

So yes Russia will face more santions become more islolated and drive the former Soviet republics even further into the arms of the West. All because they have nothing to offer them beyond, do what we want or we will cause trouble in your country.

Everywhere in the world when one finds civil war and bloodshed...........Libya, Syria, Iraq, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Israel.............there is one common factor.........i.e. USA !!!

US must be doing something very wrong EVIL in its foreign policy so as to cause so much pain to common people.

Time for US to change its foreign policy plain and simple !