IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Sermons And Homilies

a reply to: NavyDoc

Lots and LOTS of organizations should lose their tax-exempt status as "non-profits," in every sector. Even organizations like Kaiser Permanente claim non-profit protection. Non-profit protections and advantages are heavily abused by anyone who thinks they can get away with it.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Why should Planned Parenthood use tax dollars to lobby our government for more tax dollars?

I was getting ready to post that.

They are just a hate group, every-bit as intolerant as the church has been at times.

I haven't listened to an anti gay rights sermon, anywhere, ever, however it isn't political, I don't have an issue at all with gays, this sort of thing is what angers people, don't take one step forward and three steps back, you cannot expect everyone to accept you, you cannot scream for tolerance then become intolerant.

The bullies just keep switching places.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

So, you like big money in politics? You want people to buy the election when they are backing an agenda you agree with?

You do understand that a lot of damage had been done in Kansas prior to Brownback taking control, and his tax agenda has had less than one year to do anything? How many businesses get started or make significant changes in terms of gains and losses in one year?

Additionally, most of the growth in Kansas prior to Brownback was in the area of public sector jobs. If you cut taxes and money, you are going to see trimming in the public sector. Of course, the teachers aren't going to like being public employees, but then Kansas's teacher's unions, like most others places, are pretty much corrupt especially in the bigger districts.

Also, they knew there would be dips in the revenue after the cuts and have budgeted appropriately. If the cuts aren't going to work, they will know in about three years. The 2016-2017 fiscal year is the do or die for it. If it's truly going to be a bust, they will know by then. However, they have seen some positives - Missouri businesses here in Kansas City have been jumping the state line like crazy to avoid the higher taxes on the MO side. Several large companies have moved their HQs to take advantage. They won't be alone, but it takes time for businesses to relocate.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Anyone that thinks making a deal with the devil/IRS, wont come back and bite them some day is delusional, everyone should be appalled that this sort of thing is happening.

It is always fine when it aint your head on the chopping block.

What goes around comes around, we should be protecting one another.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: NavyDoc

Why should Planned Parenthood use tax dollars to lobby our government for more tax dollars?

I was getting ready to post that.

They are just a hate group, every-bit as intolerant as the church has been at times.

I haven't listened to an anti gay rights sermon, anywhere, ever, however it isn't political, I don't have an issue at all with gays, this sort of thing is what angers people, don't take one step forward and three steps back, you cannot expect everyone to accept you, you cannot scream for tolerance then become intolerant.

The bullies just keep switching places.

No more have I seen or heard anti-gay sermons without specifically going to look for that subject; I know they exist, but they certainly aren't the norm. Most of what gets classified as anti-gay is when the preaching touches on the subjects of sexual morality and man/woman marriage. These days, just merely mentioning that you think one man/one woman is the type of marriage God blesses is considered anti-gay and hateful.

Similarly, if you imply that God knew you before you were born, and there is a scripture that says that ... that also could be considered a pro-life position and be considered political now by people looking to make hay.

Basically, folks want parts of the Bible to be ignored to suit themselves and what they'd prefer. And honestly, if we are reaching a time when all you have to do to rule a subject in the church, mosque or synagogue out of bounds is declare it political, then we truly do not have freedom of religion anymore but only freedom to worship. And the left has been using that second set of words all too often. You need to listen to what Hillary says because she doesn't believe in your right to freedom of religion, only your right to freedom to worship.

If the Progressives get their way, this pattern of IRS 'crackdowns' will continue until every organization is forced to choose between liberty and tax-breaks. Money offered is hard to resist, when all you have to do in exchange is keep quiet about this issue or that issue.

It strikes me as very similar to the way single-payer healthcare systems inevitably strip people of their freedom to eat, drink, exercise, and live as they choose.

There is only one answer that will preserve freedom: wean ourselves off the gub'ment cheese and restore accountability as a national value.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: NavyDoc

Anyone that thinks making a deal with the devil/IRS, wont come back and bite them some day is delusional, everyone should be appalled that this sort of thing is happening.

It is always fine when it aint your head on the chopping block.

What goes around comes around, we should be protecting one another.

Exactly. SO many people are so into using the force of government to restrict those they dislike that they forget that they are giving government the power and precedent to restrict what they do like. This is a very short sighted way to go through life.

originally posted by: Serdgiam

Regardless, would you explain your history with Christianity?

I was born (actually assimilated) in the Christian faith. My gramma was Irish Catholic and made every effort to raise me Cathokic. At age 5 I stood up on the pew and loudly asked: "Does God really need all this"? Even at that young age I could not comprehend the gold ornateness and pomp and circumstance. It was phony.

I had a single disabled mom who believed in finding your own path through personal experience. I went to various churches with neighbors.

I actually wanted to be a minister when I was a teenager. Lots of reading and searching for factual history and information led me to my truth. In other words, my search for God led me to atheism.

Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.

First off, thank you for answering.

originally posted by: Annee

I was born (actually assimilated) in the Christian faith. My gramma was Irish Catholic and made every effort to raise me Cathokic. At age 5 I stood up on the pew and loudly asked: "Does God really need all this"? Even at that young age I could not comprehend the gold ornateness and pomp and circumstance. It was phony.

I think "phony" is being far, far too kind.. So, just out of curiosity, what was the response you received?

I had a single disabled mom who believed in finding your own path through personal experience. I went to various churches with neighbors.

I actually wanted to be a minister when I was a teenager. Lots of reading and searching for factual history and information led me to my truth. In other words, my search for God led me to atheism.

I have little doubt that you did not find God in books and words. I dont think everyone works the same way in these things. For me, they just point in a vague direction that dimly illuminates an entrance to a maze. We all have the same world to experience, the same data set to interpret, but it is split among all of humanity like light through a lens. I think its a beautiful thing, really, but it can also lead to great division.

I see that division when a specific group is singled out for something that is happening everywhere, and on much larger scales. It plays off of the personal discourse that is our life, and that response is used to fuel agendas on every side of the exchange.

Right to life and traditional marriage are almost certain to come up at some point, as they concern two basic philosophical concepts: life and love. It is playing with fire to use a governmental body to actively regulate such discussion, when that very government is looking for more control at every turn. This also serves the interests of financial bodies involved with the government as "investors."

That said, achieving tax exempt status needs to be overhauled in a way that specifically benefits the society in which the business is conducted. Otherwise it becomes parasitic, regardless of the type of organization.

So someone was so concerned about people saying something political from inside their own 4 walls of a place of worship that he went to court over it. Not seeing that as taking enough outright action, it carries into a settlement of some kind with the "impartial" agency that runs our tax collection to monitor churches?

I am not simply amazed at the fact he doesn't see the irony in his own actions to interfere with someone else's private expression of belief with like minded people, but that he seems energized to do more of it.

What must it be for people to go to such lengths in chasing down what they don't see or hear said, and can entirely ignore with less result than gets triggered by these kinds of fights? It's like fighting has become an end unto itself for some these days. A kind of sport?

originally posted by: Serdgiam

I think "phony" is being far, far too kind.. So, just out of curiosity, what was the response you received?

Granny was not amused

I have little doubt that you did not find God in books and words.

I was looking for factual history

Right to life and traditional marriage are almost certain to come up at some point

Not something you want to discuss with me

That said, achieving tax exempt status needs to be overhauled in a way that specifically benefits the society in which the business is conducted. Otherwise it becomes parasitic, regardless of the type of organization.

This we might agree on

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Serdgiam

Regardless, would you explain your history with Christianity?

I was born (actually assimilated) in the Christian faith. My gramma was Irish Catholic and made every effort to raise me Cathokic. At age 5 I stood up on the pew and loudly asked: "Does God really need all this"? Even at that young age I could not comprehend the gold ornateness and pomp and circumstance. It was phony.

I had a single disabled mom who believed in finding your own path through personal experience. I went to various churches with neighbors.

I actually wanted to be a minister when I was a teenager. Lots of reading and searching for factual history and information led me to my truth. In other words, my search for God led me to atheism.

It's not that unusual to "grow out" of religion. I was from a pretty devout Catholic family too. I wasn't abused or mistreated or anything like that. As I got older and started reading things for myself and asking questions, I found that there just wasn't any evidence support what was being taught. I didn't have a bad experience with religion or the religious, it just ended up not being for me. This is why I think I consider myself an atheist, not an anti-theist.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Did you read the topic ?

Atheists went to the IRS to make them churches 'behave'.

They were not just talking about one.

They also weren't talking about all either like your sweeping generalization implies. Some != All.

Many of the early colonists came here to escape oppression by the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church who only wanted to make those offshoot religious groups "behave" properly just like the atheists want the IRS to do.

Behave in this case means obeying the law and not abusing their tax exempt status and putting political speech in their sermons. Or are you saying that it is ok for Christian churches to break the law? I mean it is literally a requirement for tax exempt status that you can't be a politically active organization and maintain the 501(c) tax exempt status. So unlike you example of Puritans fleeing England for religious persecution, this is just getting the churches to obey state laws. No one is infringing on their religious worship. Like in my first response, strip tax exempt status from all churches and you won't have this problem.

I guess things finally come full circle and the 1st Amendment no longer means what it says it does or all religions are equal but some are more equal than others.

I missed the part where they were saying that Christians couldn't worship how they pleased. Is infringing on your tax exempt status a religious right of Christians or something? I think you are just upset that someone finally called the churches out on something they've been doing for a while to the point you think it's become allowed.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Did you read the topic ?

Atheists went to the IRS to make them churches 'behave'.

They were not just talking about one.

They also weren't talking about all either like your sweeping generalization implies. Some != All.

Many of the early colonists came here to escape oppression by the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church who only wanted to make those offshoot religious groups "behave" properly just like the atheists want the IRS to do.

Behave in this case means obeying the law and not abusing their tax exempt status and putting political speech in their sermons. Or are you saying that it is ok for Christian churches to break the law? I mean it is literally a requirement for tax exempt status that you can't be a politically active organization and maintain the 501(c) tax exempt status. So unlike you example of Puritans fleeing England for religious persecution, this is just getting the churches to obey state laws. No one is infringing on their religious worship. Like in my first response, strip tax exempt status from all churches and you won't have this problem.

I guess things finally come full circle and the 1st Amendment no longer means what it says it does or all religions are equal but some are more equal than others.

I missed the part where they were saying that Christians couldn't worship how they pleased. Is infringing on your tax exempt status a religious right of Christians or something? I think you are just upset that someone finally called the churches out on something they've been doing for a while to the point you think it's become allowed.

The power to tax is the power to control and destroy.

One issue I see is that "political activism" can be very subjective. A sermon against abortion, for example, would be very much a religious sermon to the people there but to an activist, it would be political speech. With the government getting more and more intrusive into our lives, more and more things that were a matter of conscience in the past are now part of the political debate. Eventually, every sermon in a church will have content that could be considered "political."

In addition, I would not be surprised that this rule would be enforced inequitably, given what we have seen of the IRS recently. REv. Wright's church--a heck of a lot more political than the vast majority of churches out there, very likely given a pass as the "Reverend" Jesse Jackson and the left side of the religious spectrum. You honestly think the IRS is going to remove the tax exempt status of "civil rights" type African American churches?

Also, why should politically active non-profits like churches lose their tax exempt status when politically active secular non-profits do not? Will they remove the tax exempt status planned parenthood or are they going JUST after churches. That seems neither fair nor in keeping with the equal protection clause.

a reply to: ketsuko

So, you like big money in politics? You want people to buy the election when they are backing an agenda you agree with?

No. And NO.

I have repeatedly stated that lobbying should be abolished, and that campaigns should not be soliciting funds.
In my opinion, a candidate should get 15 minutes of "Public Service Announcement-style" airtime for a set period. That's it. Three months, MAYBE, but no "fund-raising". You state your case and then sit down.

I honestly think you only respond to my posts to attack me. You won't trip me up, ketsuko. I know my mind. You don't pay attention to what I say - you seek ways to misconstrue it. Just like a politician.

Therefore, I will no longer respond to you in any way.

That said: the system is the way it is for now. That is the only measure I have to look at and the only one offered at this point to determine whether Brownback is "ahead" or not. He is not. And the results of his policies have been proven: damaging to the people of Kansas.
Period.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Serdgiam

Regardless, would you explain your history with Christianity?

I was born (actually assimilated) in the Christian faith. My gramma was Irish Catholic and made every effort to raise me Cathokic. At age 5 I stood up on the pew and loudly asked: "Does God really need all this"? Even at that young age I could not comprehend the gold ornateness and pomp and circumstance. It was phony.

I had a single disabled mom who believed in finding your own path through personal experience. I went to various churches with neighbors.

I actually wanted to be a minister when I was a teenager. Lots of reading and searching for factual history and information led me to my truth. In other words, my search for God led me to atheism.

It's not that unusual to "grow out" of religion. I was from a pretty devout Catholic family too. I wasn't abused or mistreated or anything like that. As I got older and started reading things for myself and asking questions, I found that there just wasn't any evidence support what was being taught. I didn't have a bad experience with religion or the religious, it just ended up not being for me. This is why I think I consider myself an atheist, not an anti-theist.

Exactly.

I don't consider myself anti-theist either.

However, when it infringes on me, my life, that's different.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Well I think any politically active organization regardless of its secular status should lose its 501(c) status for being politically active. Tax-exempt status is a double edged sword and allows the organization a lot of clout. Therefore any organization with tax-exempt status, needs to be closely watched.

Personally, I don't think any organization should have it, but I rarely ever get what I want in this country.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

One issue I see is that "political activism" can be very subjective. A sermon against abortion, for example, would be very much a religious sermon to the people there . . .

I agree with everything you said, except: religion should have no political power over personal choice.

Would Planned Parenthood have need to politically fight against religious belief if that belief didn't infringe in the first place.

The American Atheist focus is separation of church and state. Not anti theism.

a reply to: MrCynic

It's hate, and control,and fear, I see it everyday on the forums, I had a similar experience as Annee, looked for truth, searched the scriptures and ancient text, as far back as I could.
Spent time in new Age movement, but never denied Christ, studied Buddhism the whole nine yards, I think my journey brought me closer to god, not in a religious way, but experientially, I experienced the creator on a whole new level.


“To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.”

I can find the beauty in the scriptures, they are not useless, it is s tale of past, present and future,everyone interprets them on a personal level, you either find god, become an atheist, or go insane.

The Celestine prophecy was the best book to explain, us, that I ever read.