Dislike Of Capitalism

First of all let me say, I'm not really sure what my political views are right now. The last 'label' I really identified with was libertarian, and I still absolutely identify with the personal/social freedom aspect of it, which was always what I stressed anyways. But, I find myself having thoughts of dislike towards certain aspects of 'economic conservatism,' and capitalism, as of late.

Now, really an idea underlying capitalism is that greed is the only legitimate human motivation. Any time you discuss more utopian societies, the thought is 'well if there isn't incentive to become better off financially than others, no one will want to do anything.' And well, I frankly have come to hate the way some 'conservatives' talk. The second you talk about the idea of everyone having their needs, and many of their wants, met, the first thing they jump to is 'I'm not gonna support all those lazy bastards!' They can't even just consider that it would be nice If everyone had their wants/needs met, they just jump straight to thinking about the 'lazy bastards.'

But this is what really gets me. Scarcity is absolutely built into the system. It's not just that it's difficult for us to reach some sort of utopia where we can all have access to things. It's that the capitalistic system cannot allow it to happen. Like ideas of free energy. What if everyone could have access to their energy or electric needs? They would not allow that to happen. If everyone has access to electricity, there is no business in electricity. Everyone just has it, the profit motive isn't there. What if everyone could have access to Wi-Fi? That would shut the Wi-Fi industry down. They cannot tolerate it. This is why 'online piracy' is said to be such a heinous crime. You mean everyone can just have access to something instantly and for free, without even using any physical material? How awful! Never mind the fact that this is an incredible human achievement, unparalleled in the history of this planet.

There is no idea in this society of working towards a utopia. Even having it as an ideal. Innovation comes for its own sake, with no intention of elevating the human condition in general. No matter how much progress we make, things always adjust to keep the same basic class structure intact. I don't know whether we could achieve a sort of universal utopia, or at least universal meeting of needs, right now or not. They say we can't, but that is of course what they would want us to think. But the point is, even at whatever point it does occur that we have made enough progress that we could make it a reality, it couldn't exist in the context of a capitalist society. They wouldn't allow it, because it undercuts the whole system because it undermines scarcity, which is the whole context of capitalism. I believe a utopian society should be the end goal, the direction we head, the reason for the progress we make. And we have to consider this fact, that within this system it would never be allowed to happen, even if it were possible. And whether it's possible or abstract, that abstraction has to be understood, or else we can never even move in that direction, because the system is literally designed to make it impossible.

a reply to: TheJourney

I don't know if your a parent or not. But it might be helpful in analyzing your current state of mind. Parents seem to care more about their own than being a bleeding heart trying to save the world.

Capitalism, in its own true form is just a vehicle.

There is a huge difference between capitalism and crony capitalism. Realizing the difference between the two should help you better understand what you are for or against.

Capitalism when it involves government collusion through lobbying is what we have now and ya, it's not working for the people of the United States.

Capitalism is the biggest triumph and the ultimate fail at the same time. It breeds innovation, but places a price on everything at the same time.

There is a price to live in a capitalist society, but some believe we can easily provide for all the basics needed to live without demanding a profit.

Once we find that "sweet spot", we will be able to push innovation without the high cost of human lives.

a reply to: sheepslayer247

Thats funny. I don't see a lot of people dying in America at the hands of their government.

Maybe that only happens in communist countries.

originally posted by: Helious
There is a huge difference between capitalism and crony capitalism. Realizing the difference between the two should help you better understand what you are for or against.

Capitalism when it involves government collusion through lobbying is what we have now and ya, it's not working for the people of the United States.

As someone who has identified with libertarianism, I am familiar with these ideas that 'we aren't really capitalist,' crony capitalism and whatnot. And it is certainly true that the United States is not a pure free market capitalist system. However, the basic point I am making in the OP has nothing to do with whether the capitalism is pure or not. The fact that scarcity is the context of, and pre-requisite for, capitalism doesn't have to do with corruption or crony capitalism. It's capitalism itself. And I find it strange to outright state a dislike for capitalism, it's sort of ingrained into our minds, particularly as someone who has identified with true libertarianism. However, the need for lack in a capitalist system does not have anything to do with impure capitalism.

a reply to: txinfidel

I didn't say anything about America or communism. Are you under the impression that America is a capitalist society?

How sad.

45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage

news.harvard.edu...

Then add all thee people that die from air pollution, cancer from chemicals, cigarettes, etc and war or course and capitalism is very expensive.

a reply to: CB328

Cry me a river dude.

How about I bring up the millions of people murdered by abortion every year.

But no, lack of healthcare is not murder and certainly isn't the governments place or responsibility now is it?

Whos your daddy?

Every nation and even every people that exist in a society, to my knowledge, have a form of capitalism infused into their societal existence. Even societies that utilize barter and trade are effectively employing a capitalistic principle. 10 fish for a pelt? Ok maybe someone will give you 12 for that same pelt. Work and production of goods and services have value. The markets determine that value. I rather think some form of capitalism is inescapable no matter where you are on the planet.

a reply to: txinfidel

I love it when you guys chime in on the forums.

It provides the rest of us with examples of why certain ideologies are just outright wrong.

Thanks!

You ever considered the fact that capitalism isn't the problem, you are? Harder jobs pay more.

originally posted by: mattsawaufo
Harder jobs pay more.

Is that a fact? lol. I'm sorry, but that's so obviously false I don't really think I have to go into much detail. No, there is not a direct relationship between how hard someone works and how much money they make. Many of the most demanding jobs don't pay that much. Many of the richest people in the world don't work very hard. Why even say something so blatantly false?

Humans not only survived but thrived for well over 100,000 years without money or a economy. We will indeed work for the betterment of the community without coin. Some tribal societies still do it today. However once money is introduced into these systems they fall apart.

Either way we will destroy our society as it is, or we will evolve and create a new system. I will work for you and your family, would you work for me and mine?

originally posted by: CB328
45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage

news.harvard.edu...

Then add all thee people that die from air pollution, cancer from chemicals, cigarettes, etc and war or course and capitalism is very expensive.

I'm curious as to what you're getting at in this post. The Constitution doesn't say anything about government sponsored healthcare being essential to life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness.

If what I think you are alluding to is correct then I fear you have it all wrong. You, for instance, don't have all of the data for Obamacare or it's true outcome because the Obama administration has delayed so many of its facets in violation of the good faith of law. Much like immigration.

Notice that Article two of the Constitution makes no mention of the executive branch's power to do this, it seems to only mention them faithfully executing the laws that congress makes and the executive branch passes. Perhaps I am missing something and if I am, please point me to that article and annotation.

You seem to also fail to realize the #1 cause of death in the entire world throughout history is "democide". Death by government, tyrannical, ruthless and murdering government. Many people throughout history thought it could never happen to them until it did. Ignoring history or being ignorant of it all together won't help you in assessing the future.

Come on man, you know better.

a reply to: sheepslayer247

Why? We both have the understanding that things are seriously F# up in this country, but it aint because of capitalism baby.

So instead of working with people that have common ideas you choose to rail against them. Rather than looking for a solution you focus on only the problem.

I can see the problem. Can you?

If its capitalism then go ahead lets hear it. Lets hear how it could all be fixed through your proposed economic solution.

Otherwise its the government thats to blame, not the economic system..

a reply to: Helious

You seem to also fail to realize the number cause of death in the entire world is "democide". Death by government, tyrannical, ruthless and murdering government. Many people throughout history thought it could never happen to them until it did. Ignoring history or being ignorant of it all together won't help you in assessing the future.

Come on man, you know better.

No he doesn't.

How could you take seriously somebody with the Obama logo as their avatar toting health care reform?

lol

originally posted by: txinfidel
a reply to: Helious

You seem to also fail to realize the number cause of death in the entire world is "democide". Death by government, tyrannical, ruthless and murdering government. Many people throughout history thought it could never happen to them until it did. Ignoring history or being ignorant of it all together won't help you in assessing the future.

Come on man, you know better.

No he doesn't.

How could you take seriously somebody with the Obama logo as their avatar toting health care reform?

lol

Roflma, I honestly try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I found over my long years that it is better to attack the argument than the person. The argument that was made from his side, I view as ludicrous so I must speak up and appeal to his sensibility. If he doesn't know why it's wrong, I doubt he will ever understand and sadly, that is the problem with so many Americans.

Doesn't mean we can't keep trying.

a reply to: Helious

IMO I agree but you can stop trying. Sometimes its better to let sleeping dogs lie.

Nothing short of intervention from God himself can help some folks..

Just my opinion.

a reply to: txinfidel

I'm an eternal optimist when it comes to American spirit. It's what keeps me going and my love for this country, how it was founded and the principles it was founded on are truly and uniquely beautiful to me. Outside of my wife and my children, it is one of the only things that move me genuinely.

For that reason, when it comes to me personally, I could never stop trying because no matter what happens, I refuse to believe Americans want to live in socialism, authoritarianism, feudalism, marxism, communism or anything other than freedom, the William Wallace kind of freedom.

Perhaps people have been trained, accustomed and taught to not buck the tiger but as long as I draw breath, I'll be around to tell them to do just that and even if it doesn't do them any good, it does a world of good for me.