A fake atrocity video from Gaza

originally posted by: charles1952
My understanding, in my rather simple way, is that if you capture land and build towns on it, it's pretty clearly yours.

That was the way it was done, up until around 1939 when some crazy Austrian dude turned the world on it's head. Then came the UN Charter and, as a result, no land can simply be "taken" and built upon, not without consent by both parties.

originally posted by: charles1952
If Egypt gave up all territorial claims to Gaza, what other country claimed it? Iraq? If it was claimed by anyone it would be Israel. Those are reasons why it looks to me like Gaza was Israel's to keep or give away.

For some reason, you seem to be ignoring anything prior to 1967 - why? In 1948, the Arab league setup the All Palestine Government to govern Gaza strip (and nominally the rest of the Palestine territories) which was the first true "Palestinian" Government. This ran Gaza from 1948-1967, when Israel invaded the territory and maintained a Military Government over the area until 1994.

originally posted by: charles1952
The fact that it was under Israeli military occupation tells us two things. One, it was Israel's.

Nope - it is analogous to the US invasion of Afghanistan or Iraq - both Military occupations until a civilian Government can be set-up. It certainly doesn't mean the terroritory belongs to the Occupier. In fact, there are strict rules on what you can, can't and must do as an Occupier - one is to try to ensure normal a life as possible and another is you canot start settling the area with your own people.

originally posted by: charles1952
Israel wasn't occupying a foreign country.

Actually, it was. Depending on how you look at it, it was either occupying the nascent Palestinian state or a client state of Egypt.

originally posted by: charles1952
Two, the people in that area had the military as their governing power, they weren't self-governing.

After 1967, yes - prior to that, they were most certainly self-governing - at least until 1959 when Egypt merged (because of pan-Arab nationalism by Nasser in Egypt who wanted all Arabs under a single state) the Gaza strip into Egypt proper, without consultation or the agreement of the local people living there. This is why the peace Treaty between Israel and Egypt made them give up claims to Gaza - that doesn't mean, by the way, that Israel suddenly had a claim, just that Egypt wouldn't stir up trouble for Israel over that strip of land.

a reply to: charles1952

Charles, interesting post. I bet Israel Is second guessing giving there land Gaza to the Palestine's
Well if anything to let such a corrupt terrorist organization Hamas, who doesn't even care about their people to take control of it..

So if Egypt *gave the land to Israel..Why everyone so mad at Israel and at them building their settlements? I bet the Palestinians are loving to live in Israel in their nice houses, compared to Gaza..

a reply to: live2beknown

You know, I do wonder why I bother to try and have adult and intelligent debates around here...

I've already pointed out, the land was never Israel's to "give away" and when they did withdraw in 1994, this was part of a wider peace deal where they agreed to end their occupation of the Gaza strip. If Israel agree's they were occupying it, it was never theirs to give away...

And still, everyone seems to think that time began in 1967....

a reply to: charles1952

No the thing is international law allows groups of people a right to break off from whatever country they live in and demand their own state etc. Even if the land belongs to Israel, if those people don't want to be under Israeli rule, they will fight till they get it. Hamas has been saying this over and over now. They want the Israelis to stop controlling them.

They dont want their borders controlled, their nutrional intake controlled, their banks, their electricity, etc.

They want to be a free state, thats why they appealed to the UN for that back and got accepted as a non member observing state back on 29 November 2012.

This is all basic knowledge by now. Oh, and here's the kicker, right before this set of attacks started on both sides, and the three Israeli teenagers got kidnapped, the Palestinian unity government between West Bank Fatah and Hamas was sworn in on June 2, ten days before the kids got kidnapped.

Everyone knows Netanyahu doesn't want a unity government. But why doesn't Israel want a unity government if its not about the land? Why would he prefer to keep Hamas's image as a bunch of terrorists stay rather than have them become a sovereign state? And do you really think Hamas would want to jeapordize their getting along with Fatah finally?

a reply to: nusnus

Id argue the opisit they would love a single government to deal with instead of multiple groups. Two reasons one they have only one person to blame when attacked instead of trying to figure out which group. And two in the past they would negotiate deals only to have another group break it.

a reply to: stumason

Dear stumason,

All right, I surrender. Can we at least agree that Israel, expecting peace, pulled completely out of Gaza about 10 years ago. Leaving no settlers, or towns. The Israeli presence was removed. It was done freely and with no conditions or stipulations.

And about that withdrawing in 1994? You must have suffered from a malicious keyboard. The withdrawal was ordered in 2004 and took place in 2005. The withdrawal included the four West Bank settlements.

What happened in Gaza?

Following disengagement in 2005, Qassam rockets continued to be fired out of Gaza into Israel, and the pace of the attacks quickened in 2006 following the victory of the Islamist group Hamas in the Palestinian legislative elections of early 2006. 757 missiles hit Israel between disengagement and the end of June, 2006 and Israel responded with artillery fire and air strikes.

Between the end of March 2006 – when the Hamas government assumed power – and the end of May 2006, Israel fired at least 5,100 artillery shells into the Gaza Strip Qassam launching areas in an attempt to stop them from firing.

Hamas had announced a ceasefire in 2005 and until June 10, 2006, Hamas did not take responsibility itself for the firing of ordnance into Israel, but the group's leader had said in February that it did not intend to impede other groups from carrying out "armed resistance" against Israel. This was a significant statement because Israel had often pressured the Palestinian government to stop such attacks in the past, and Palestinian willingness to do so had been seen as a key indicator of intent by Israel. However, Hamas was implicated in rocket and terror attacks carried out by other groups, as well as engaging in its own attacks, despite the ceasefire.

The political context of this exchange of fire was an internal struggle in the Palestinian territories between Hamas and the old ruling party, Fatah. Fatah members and supporters predominated in the Palestinian security forces and the civil service and Hamas complained that they were hampering the new government's capacity to function. Violent protests, clashes and attempted assassinations mounted during 2006.

Meanwhile, because Hamas refused to recognize Israel's right to exist or reaffirm its commitment to previous agreements between the Palestinian Authority and Israel, the Israeli government and the Quartet (the EU, the UK, the USA and Russia) imposed an economic embargo on the Hamas government.

en.wikipedia.org...

Hamas has done all this before.

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: charles1952
Dear stumason,

All right, I surrender. Can we at least agree that Israel, expecting peace, pulled completely out of Gaza about 10 years ago. Leaving no settlers, or towns. The Israeli presence was removed. It was done freely and with no conditions or stipulations.

No, we cannot "agree", because they pulled out in 1994 after the Oslo Accords and no, they left behind military outposts and the settler blocs were left untouched until 2005, some 11 years later.

In May 1994, following the Palestinian-Israeli agreements known as the Oslo Accords, a phased transfer of governmental authority to the Palestinians took place. Much of the Strip (except for the settlement blocs and military areas) came under Palestinian control.

Linky - this was all posted on the last page, you know

originally posted by: charles1952
And about that withdrawing in 1994? You must have suffered from a malicious keyboard. The withdrawal was ordered in 2004 and took place in 2005. The withdrawal included the four West Bank settlements.

Nope, no malicious keyboard - see above.

originally posted by: charles1952
Hamas has done all this before.

While Hamas certainly doesn't help the situation with it's rather pointless rocket attacks (they achieve nothing - it;s like hitting a hornets nest with your penis), as I said before, the Palestinians suffer their children being killed every week and the world doesn't bat an eyelid, but 3 Jewish kids get kidnapped and Israel goes mental.

It is rather telling that there has been relative peace for years right up until Hamas and Fatah reconcile and it looks as if the Palestinians might be united once more...

Israel should at the very least acknowledge the 1967 borders until the people there can completely throw them out and make them go back to wherever they came from in 1948.

Do you even hear yourself? You sound like Hamas "drive them into the sea"? And you wonder why Israel is going after Hamas?

Face it Israel is not going away, nor is Palestine. Hamas has never ever recognized Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State, that's a non starter to even negotiate with Hamas.

a reply to: pavil

Who knows maybe he is Hamas operative If Gaza didn't have Hamas it would be a peaceful place..They're cowards, hiding behind kids and shooting rockets in civilian areas.
"Hamas has never ever recognized Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State " that's true, Hamas brain washes their kids to hating Jews..They will not win this war, get rid of Hamas and peace will arise. There also wouldn't be so much bloodshed, if Hamas didn't hide behind civilians..
How do we even know that some of these "civilians deaths" aren't Hamas? Does Hamas dress in uniform?

a reply to: stumason

Dear stumason,

This is becoming difficult. I could be wrong, but it appears that you are not reading what I am writing. That, of course, makes agreement difficult. You say that we can't agree, then you say exactly what I was saying.

All right, I surrender. Can we at least agree that Israel, expecting peace, pulled completely out of Gaza about 10 years ago. Leaving no settlers, or towns. The Israeli presence was removed. It was done freely and with no conditions or stipulations.

Had you read this, you would have seen that I was saying that the complete pull out from Gaza by the Israelis occurred in about 2005.

No, we cannot "agree", because they pulled out in 1994 after the Oslo Accords and no, they left behind military outposts and the settler blocs were left untouched until 2005, some 11 years later.

Here you say that you disagree with me, the complete pull out from Gaza by the Israelis occurred in about 2005. Which, obviously, is exactly what I said.

I don't know how to have a discussion in such circumstances. Help me out here.

Oh, and the 1994 pull out was only partial and in just some of the areas of Gaza. The Israeli military was still allowed in, Jewish settlers were allowed to remain, etc. I've been talking about the complete pull out, no wonder that you don't agree, you're not talking about what I have been from the start.

With respect,
Charles1952

[quote

It is rather telling that there has been relative peace for years right up until Hamas and Fatah reconcile and it looks as if the Palestinians might be united once more...


This had more truth to it than a lot of people would like to accept.....

Regards

Riouz

a reply to: charles1952

I wasn't talking about children's deaths, I was talking about civilian deaths. I didn't say that all children were not innocent civilians.

Do children not count as civilians? I dont understand this sentence....many, many children have been killed. I think its safe to assume that not all of them were militants aligned with Hamas.

Someone dies in Gaza. There are some relevant questions to ask. Was it the result of military action or a natural death? If military action, was it accidental or intentional? Israeli or Palestinian? (Some deaths in Gaza are caused by Hamas rockets going astray. I don't know how many, but I've seen some guesses saying it's about 100 - 200.)

All very good questions, but when a missile hits a playground, or a hospital, or a refugee camp, those questions quickly get answered.

Now, how do we know if the death was that of a civilian? Certainly a three year old is a civilian, but how about a 15 year old? A 20 year old woman? How can you identify a civilian in Gaza? Do all Hamas (What? Terrorists? Members? Soldiers?) have uniforms on when they're killed?

Again, very valid questions. I equate it to the "war on terror"-so long as the you can hide behind a faceless enemy, any killing can be justified.

That doesnt make it right.

What I was asking you for was a source of information for the number of civilian deaths caused intentionally by the Israelis. It seems as though the source for figures is the Palestine government or Hamas. We know that they have lied about casualties in the past, is there an accurate source now?

The number of militants killed is unclear, but the United Nations estimates that 70% to 80% of the dead are civilians.

www.cnn.com...

Now, its obvious to anyone paying attention that Hamas is at fault for many of these civilian deaths, but so is israel.

About Israel taking Gaza in 1967? I wasn't talking about the past. I was simply saying, correctly I believe, that in 1967 Gaza was Israel's. And yes, the Israeli's just gave it to the Palestinians.

And my point is that this all didnt begin in 1967. It goes back long before that. It cant be looked at in a vacuum.

As for "just giving it" to the palestinians: you are mixing up your claims. You first spoke of the Oslo Accords. now you are speaking of the Disengagement Plan.

In neither case did Israel just "give up" anything.

Both times it came down to oppressed people uprising, and the gov't having no choice but to cede some demands.

a reply to: captaintyinknots

Dear captaintyinknots,

First, an apology. This is a difficult subject to begin with and my writing isn't as precise as it should be. That's led to misunderstandings in the past. Let me try to clear up the problems you've identified.

Concerning the "children vs. civilian" confusion. There are some children who are, by definition, civilians. I would guess that in that troubled part of the world guns and explosions are no strangers to anybody. Certainly, any one up to the age of, oh I don't know, eight maybe, is by definition a civilian. A 17 year-old, though? He could be a terrorist or a civilian, no way to tell.

Just because someone isn't 18, doesn't mean they're not fighting. Some children killed are innocent civilians. Some children killed are actively fighting with Hamas.

The other possible area of confusion is the disengagement in 2005. I began by talking about the "gift" of Gaza by the Israelis. It was another poster who said i was wrong, that the pullout was in 1994 under Oslo. As far as I can remember, all of my references were to the disengagement of 2005.

I haven't seen anything that claims that the 2005 pullout was because of Palestinian demands. Everywhere I've gone I've seen statements that the pullout was one-sided, that there were no negotiations, and Israel did it hoping for peaceful relations.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

Everywhere I've gone I've seen statements that the pullout was one-sided, that there were no negotiations, and Israel did it hoping for peaceful relations.

That's a lie:

According to the Oslo peace accords of 1993, these territories were supposed to finally become a Palestinian state. However, after years of Israel continuing to confiscate land and conditions steadily worsening, the Palestinian population rebelled. (The Barak offer, widely reputed to be generous, was anything but.) This uprising, called the "Intifada" (Arabic for "shaking off") began at the end of September 2000.

ifamericansknew.org...

And for your information, Palestinians are called such because they live in Palestine, it was not Israels land and they have continually broke international rights laws concerning Palestinians for years. The current war crimes against Gaza are still going unpunished and the U.K./U.S. is fully aware of what Israel has been doing in regards to illegal settlements in the West Bank.

a reply to: charles1952

First, an apology. This is a difficult subject to begin with and my writing isn't as precise as it should be. That's led to misunderstandings in the past. Let me try to clear up the problems you've identified.

No apology necessary. Ive always found you to be a very courteous poster, even when we dont agree.

Concerning the "children vs. civilian" confusion. There are some children who are, by definition, civilians. I would guess that in that troubled part of the world guns and explosions are no strangers to anybody. Certainly, any one up to the age of, oh I don't know, eight maybe, is by definition a civilian. A 17 year-old, though? He could be a terrorist or a civilian, no way to tell.

I agree, it is very hard to tell. Does that mean, though, that its okay for Israel to go kill every 17 year old in palestine, since they "might" be a terrorist? Also, lets remember to be careful with that word, many nations around the globe consider Israel to be a terrorist state.

Just because someone isn't 18, doesn't mean they're not fighting. Some children killed are innocent civilians. Some children killed are actively fighting with Hamas.

Maybe so. The UN, again, estimates that 70-80% of the deaths in gaza are civilian. Thats not exactly a biased source.

The other possible area of confusion is the disengagement in 2005. I began by talking about the "gift" of Gaza by the Israelis. It was another poster who said i was wrong, that the pullout was in 1994 under Oslo. As far as I can remember, all of my references were to the disengagement of 2005.

Fair enough, there are enough people going back and forth in this thread that its easy to get things mixed up. Apologies if I was confused.

I haven't seen anything that claims that the 2005 pullout was because of Palestinian demands. Everywhere I've gone I've seen statements that the pullout was one-sided, that there were no negotiations, and Israel did it hoping for peaceful relations.

Why is Israel withdrawing from Gaza? In announcing the "Disengagement Plan" in December 2003, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said the withdrawal was to increase security of residents of Israel, relieve pressure on the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) and reduce friction between Israelis and Palestinians. Hamas, the Islamic Resistance Movement, claims that the withdrawal is the result of violent Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation.

www.washingtonpost.com...

I guess it depends on who you believe...

I Just watched this video about a Col. Richard Kemp from the British forces talk about Operation Protective Edge, he did former service in Afghanistan, and worth a watch and only 5 min.

Brit. Col Richard Kemp on Israel Op Protective Edge

a reply to: live2beknown

You might find this interesting its egyptian journalists discussing Hamas, Or more accurately condemning their actions. See it talks about how they condemn their people to die well they live the good life. Also condemns the use of human shields by Hamas. So even Arabs realize what Hamas is doing to their people.




and also heres Lebanons take on Hamas they admit the Arab league wants Israel to destroy Hamas.



See in western media were a bit diffrent we use words like disproportionate we have a sense of fair play but when defending your home and family how far would you go? If your neighbor where throwing grenades over your fence and threatening your home and family, would you use a rocket launcher if you had one?? We cany understand what either side of this conflict goes through in Israel they have been in bomb shelters almost from the start of this and Palestinians are forced to hide in there homes where Hamas fires from knowing their will be a response. The civilians always suffer in war and this is no different. there will be one of two outcomes either Hamas will negotiate in the past usually when they run out of missiles. Or Israel needs to remove them from power there is no other options to end this right now at least.

Great post and I'm not surprised, and it's really sad the Palestinians have to suffer from Hamas, who doesn't care about about their so called people.. I wish Israel would destroy Hamas, so their could be peace and for it to be stable, would be a better place for everyone.

a reply to: djyorkie

News Flash, HAMAS is not fighting occupation, their goal is to destroy Israel - FACT. Also explain to me this why is it NEVER HAMAS fault for hiding in the civilian population, little lone, the civilian population is complicit in hiding them? Why does HAMAS hide their weapons in schools, hospitals, etc how is this Israels fault? These arguments are idiotic at best. The U.N. is worthless and has been anti-Israel for decades, cannot trust anything they say or do.

Grim

Previous posters are not entirely accurate, I'm not condoning Hamas but as Palestinians knowing full well how Israel treat your people, they are the ones saying "no more, we're fighting back". And don't forget, if it wasn't for Israel and their illegal activities in the West Bank, then Hamas may not even exist. Israeli policy has caused this mess.

Also, there were 3 cases of weapons being stored in schools, all of them were declared by the U.N. and the schools had long been mothballed. The latest strikes on schools by Israel (knowing full well they were being used as shelters for people) are nothing more than war crimes.