A fake atrocity video from Gaza

originally posted by: djyorkie
Erm, it is a one sided story.

Israel are terrorists FACT
Israel kills innocent families FACT
Israel kills kids FACT
Israel spun the whole reason this episode started FACT
Any country the fights against occupation is not a terrorist FACT
You cant be a terrorist fighting for freedom in your own territiry FACT
Israel is using illegal weapons in civilian areas FACT
The french resistence in WW2 fighting against nazi occupation were not terrorists FACT
Jews fighting back in warsaw ghettos were not terrorists FACT
Bombing UN controlled buildings will not make the world like you FACT
Using human shield argument is pointless as everyone knows israel ignores thay anyway FACT
Being anti zionist is allowed FACT


Want me to provide evidence for all of the above? Nah, I will just side-step anything you ask me, and ignore the questions and only reply with things that support my claims with even less evidence.... See,we can all learn things from zionists

so?...what is your solution?....Israel should just go away and turn the land over to Hamas?

originally posted by: jimmyx
oh, well that's ok then....please, Israel, allow the Hamas to keep firing their missiles at you, because they haven't yet killed civilians

Don't try to put words in mouth, you're clearly not clever enough to do so.

What I was pointing out was the total disproportionate response from Israel and the fact that, even without Iron Dome, these rockets have never really posed a serious threat except for Israeli farmers who get their fields blown up.

a reply to: stumason

Another ignorant post, they shot rockets aimed at Tel Aviv.. and they are a little more sophisticated now than before.. I've seen rockets hit schools and such and aim at a nuclear reactor? those stupid fk's trying to kill everyone in the area..If one of those rockets hit that thing, It would of been a shiit show!

a reply to: live2beknown

If you genuinely believe that one of these rockets hitting Dimona would have caused it to blow, then you are the ignorant one. Either that, or the Israeli's have constructed their reactor housing out of corrugated steel and mud bricks....

Whether they shot rockets here, there or wherever is not really the point - the point I was making was that in the ten years proceeding the introduction of Iron Dome, less Israeli civilians had been killed than Palestinians in the past 3 weeks - hence, a totally disproportionate response.

Both sides are VERY wrong here, but come on....this situation is parallel with killing someones whole family because they threw a rock and broke your window.

So I guess those kids faked died.

originally posted by: captaintyinknots
Both sides are VERY wrong here, but come on....this situation is parallel with killing someones whole family because they threw a rock and broke your window.

so why aren't they just carpet bombing the whole Gaza city?...why are they sending in troops to hunt Hamas, rather than just blowing up huge areas where they think they are located? why are they using drones with guided munitions, instead of lobbing thousands of tank rounds randomly? why did they warn the Palestinian people first? why is the only condition to stop the violence laid out by Israel, is to stop firing rockets at them, but, the condition laid out by Hamas to end their violence against Israel, is to give the Palestinians back all the land that makes up the country of Israel?

a reply to: live2beknown

229 CHILDREN NOW MURDERED BY ZIONISTS

there is no excuse on earth you can now use.
Human shields or hamas firing rockets just does not cut it any more.
End of.

originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: captaintyinknots
Both sides are VERY wrong here, but come on....this situation is parallel with killing someones whole family because they threw a rock and broke your window.

so why aren't they just carpet bombing the whole Gaza city?...why are they sending in troops to hunt Hamas, rather than just blowing up huge areas where they think they are located? why are they using drones with guided munitions, instead of lobbing thousands of tank rounds randomly? why did they warn the Palestinian people first? why is the only condition to stop the violence laid out by Israel, is to stop firing rockets at them, but, the condition laid out by Hamas to end their violence against Israel, is to give the Palestinians back all the land that makes up the country of Israel?

Spare me the "surgical strike" rhetoric. hundreds upon hundreds of civilians are being killed.

Your logic is that if you steal my house, and I fight to get it back, you are totally within the right to kill anyone and everyone who agrees with me until it is conceded that it is now your house.

I don't support Hamas, and I think many in gaza are in the wrong, but Im not gullible enough to buy the "Israel is just trying to get Hamas to stop" narrative. I know my history.

originally posted by: stumason

originally posted by: live2beknown
a reply to: Zcustosmorum

alright mate, let me ask you this..If Israel didn't have Iron Dome and all those 2500 rockets killed thousand of Israeli civilians, would your thoughts be different?

Even before Israel had Iron Dome, the amount of injuries (much less deaths) from Rockets was actually very low in comparison to reciprocal Palestinian deaths as a result of IDF attacks.

Which simply shows that the tactics here are to provoke the Israelis.

a reply to: captaintyinknots

I suppose I might as well ask you as any of the other posters that have made the same claim:

Spare me the "surgical strike" rhetoric. hundreds upon hundreds of civilians are being killed.

How do you know they are civilians? A civilian is one who has not participated in an attack, or provided assistance to someone they knew was going to use that assistance to further an attack. Whence comes your information?

Your logic is that if you steal my house, and I fight to get it back, you are totally within the right to kill anyone and everyone who agrees with me until it is conceded that it is now your house.

This argument is showing up more and more often, but it is still erroneous. Remember that Gaza was part of Israel from 1967 until the 1990's when Israel, voluntarily, gave Gaza to the Palestinian representatives completely.

I don't support Hamas, and I think many in gaza are in the wrong, but Im not gullible enough to buy the "Israel is just trying to get Hamas to stop" narrative. I know my history.

If Israel's plan was to eliminate Gaza and the Palestinians, why did they give it to them just twenty years ago. They didn't have to. Surely, at least that move, earns Israel some praise and gratitude from Palestinians.

a reply to: charles1952

Meh, as a Middle Easterner who's been following this matter for years now, all I'm gonna say is Israel has not destroyed Gaza completely because they'd rather have the Palestinians run for cover and leave the land for them to settle on afterwards. If they went ahead and just bombed the place, the international outcry would be too strong to contain, they don't want that. They'd rather absorb the Palestinians into their midst, run them by their own laws and just continue the take over of the great piece of land Zionists believe God granted them long ago.....this piece of land continues all the way into Iraq mind you. Its all about the land.

a reply to: nusnus

Dear nusnus,

That's an interesting response, I'm glad you posted it. You've got something worth thinking about there.

If I understand you, you think that Israel wants the people of Palestine to either leave Palestine or join the other non-Jewish Arabs which make up 20 - 25% of the population. That would be a peaceful solution, and it's what the Muslims are doing to the Christians in some Islamic countries: convert, leave, or die. I wonder if the Israelis got the idea from the Muslims.

I am glad to hear that you don't believe that Israel is conducting genocide, or attempting to kill all the Palestinians. That fact alone moves you above many others on the rationality scale. It also moves you ahead of Hamas and the Palestinians.

If it's about the land, and Hamas wants to keep the land, then certainly their best approach is to give Israel no excuse for violence against them. Be good neighbors, rake the lawn, paint the picket fence, bring over pot luck, that kind of thing. Then world opinion would be against Israel if they tried to do anything, and the government would probably be voted out.

You seem to be saying that Hamas has fallen into the Israeli trap, by building tunnels, firing rockets, promulgating fake atrocity videos, in short, being real jerks that deserve to get slapped around from time to time.

But if it's about land, why did Israel give the Sinai peninsula back to Egypt? That's a piece of land bigger than Israel itself. Why did Israel give Gaza to the Palestinians in the 90s, when it was Israel's land? Why did they pull every Jew out of Gaza? They weren't forced to.

The land argument doesn't seem to fit. But if I misunderstood you, write back.

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: nusnus
a reply to: charles1952

Meh, as a Middle Easterner who's been following this matter for years now, all I'm gonna say is Israel has not destroyed Gaza completely because they'd rather have the Palestinians run for cover and leave the land for them to settle on afterwards. If they went ahead and just bombed the place, the international outcry would be too strong to contain, they don't want that. They'd rather absorb the Palestinians into their midst, run them by their own laws and just continue the take over of the great piece of land Zionists believe God granted them long ago.....this piece of land continues all the way into Iraq mind you. Its all about the land.

The problem is Israel knows they have no where to go. So that shoots a big whole in that idea. The problem is the Arab league will not allow Palestinians to immigrate into an arab nation actually in there charters. Part of the reason Egypt built the huge wall and regularly destroys tunnels leading into Egypt. Though interestingly Egypt did just recently offer to open the GAZA crossing in there peace talks with them and Israel. The Palestinians rejected it but what i find interesting is Egypts demand for opening the crossing was it be monitored not by Hamas but the PLO. And warned Hamas it needed to stop any assistance to the Muslim Brotherhood.

See people want to claim its only the west that sees Hamas as terrorists but thats not true the arab league is afraid of Hamas. Thats why there more than happy to let Israel babysit them think about it Egypt is helping the Israelis broker a deal.Take it a step further where is the condemnation from arab countries its not there anyone of them could easily take there case to the UN not a peep. Doesnt that strike you as strange?

there's also a lot of facts out there with Hamas rockets failing and killing there own, i.e kids..read this interesting article on ATS named " Son Of Hamas Founder Speaks Out About Why He Defected And What Hamas Is Planning "
very interesting and not surprised, people are just ignorant about Hamas.

What Israel needs to do, is continue it's ground invasion and corner Hamas and Kill them all, So the Palestine's can be free!

a reply to: charles1952

How do you know they are civilians? A civilian is one who has not participated in an attack, or provided assistance to someone they knew was going to use that assistance to further an attack. Whence comes your information?

Charles, I respect you as a poster, and think you are an intelligent person. That said, if you are truly questioning whether all these children were innocent civilians, militants, or fabrications, I can do nothing but roll my eyes at you:
www.aljazeera.com...
www.independent.co.uk... 6.html
www.cnn.com...
www.cnn.com...
And thats just a few....
Refugee camps, hospitals, playgrounds....yeah, surgical strike indeed.

This argument is showing up more and more often, but it is still erroneous. Remember that Gaza was part of Israel from 1967 until the 1990's when Israel, voluntarily, gave Gaza to the Palestinian representatives completely.

And how did Israel gain possession in 1967? Oh, right...by force. And what of the conflict pre-1967? It didnt start then. '

If Israel's plan was to eliminate Gaza and the Palestinians, why did they give it to them just twenty years ago. They didn't have to. Surely, at least that move, earns Israel some praise and gratitude from Palestinians.

Come on. Israel "just gave it to them"?

And, again, you are looking at this in a vacuum. It goes back far beyond 1967.

a reply to: captaintyinknots

Dear captaintyinknots,

Always a pleasure to speak with you. You wouldn't have written that note unless you believed I was seriously in error, so I'd better go back and check this out. I foul up all the time, this may be just one more example.

If I understand correctly, you said that hundreds and hundreds of civilians are being killed. That may be. I didn't deny it, I don't admit it either, I truly don't know.

That said, if you are truly questioning whether all these children were innocent civilians, militants, or fabrications, I can do nothing but roll my eyes at you

I wasn't talking about children's deaths, I was talking about civilian deaths. I didn't say that all children were not innocent civilians.

Perhaps my writing was unclear. Let me try again (primarily because I don't want to be the one responsible for your rolling eyes).

Someone dies in Gaza. There are some relevant questions to ask. Was it the result of military action or a natural death? If military action, was it accidental or intentional? Israeli or Palestinian? (Some deaths in Gaza are caused by Hamas rockets going astray. I don't know how many, but I've seen some guesses saying it's about 100 - 200.)

Now, how do we know if the death was that of a civilian? Certainly a three year old is a civilian, but how about a 15 year old? A 20 year old woman? How can you identify a civilian in Gaza? Do all Hamas (What? Terrorists? Members? Soldiers?) have uniforms on when they're killed?

What I was asking you for was a source of information for the number of civilian deaths caused intentionally by the Israelis. It seems as though the source for figures is the Palestine government or Hamas. We know that they have lied about casualties in the past, is there an accurate source now?

-----------

About Israel taking Gaza in 1967? I wasn't talking about the past. I was simply saying, correctly I believe, that in 1967 Gaza was Israel's. And yes, the Israeli's just gave it to the Palestinians.

The Washington Post is considered left of center. They aren't huge fans of Israel. Here is a part of their explanation of events at the time (August 10, 2005):

Why is Israel withdrawing from Gaza?

In announcing the "Disengagement Plan" in December 2003, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said the withdrawal was to increase security of residents of Israel, relieve pressure on the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) and reduce friction between Israelis and Palestinians. Hamas, the Islamic Resistance Movement, claims that the withdrawal is the result of violent Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation.

Who opposes the withdrawal?

Israel's right-wing and religious parties are most opposed to the withdrawal. Finance Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, a member of Sharon's Likud Party, resigned in early August in protest, the highest ranking Israeli official to do so. He said that withdrawal does not require reciprocal concessions by the Palestinians. Hundreds of Israeli soldiers who object to the withdrawal have been excused from duties.

How will the withdrawal affect the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

The Israeli government expects the withdrawal will reduce Palestinian attacks on Jewish citizens. The Israeli Foreign Ministry says that the withdrawal shows that Israel is willing to make significant concessions for peace. The PNA, while welcoming the dismantling of the settlements, says that the withdrawal is a unilateral move designed to consolidate Israeli control over the West Bank where the majority of Palestinians live. (Emphasis added)

www.washingtonpost.com...

So, yes, it was Israel's and they gave it to the Palestinians as a gift hoping for peace.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

Gaza may have been "Israeli" in 1967, because they had taken it previously by force from Egypt

In fact, it wasn't actually Israeli anyway, but rather under Military Occupation - a totally different thing to actually owning the land to "give" to someone else. All Israel did in 1994 was end their occupation, not "give the land to Palestinians"

1948 All-Palestine government

On 22 September 1948, towards the end of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the All-Palestine government was proclaimed in the Egyptian-occupied Gaza City by the Arab League. It was conceived partly as an Arab League attempt to limit the influence of Transjordan in Palestine. The All-Palestine Government was quickly recognized by six of the then seven members of the Arab League: Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen, but not by Transjordan.[11] It was not recognized by any country outside the Arab League.

After the cessation of hostilities, the Israel-Egypt Armistice Agreement of 24 February 1949 established the separation line between Egyptian and Israeli forces, and established what became the present boundary between the Gaza Strip and Israel. Both sides declared that the boundary was not an international border. The southern border with Egypt continued to be the international border which had been drawn in 1906 between the Ottoman Empire and the British Empire.[12]

Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip or Egypt were issued All-Palestine passports. Egypt did not offer them citizenship. From the end of 1949, they received aid directly from UNRWA. During the Sinai campaign of November 1956, the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula were occupied by Israeli troops, who withdrew under international pressure. The government was accused of being little more than a façade for Egyptian control, with negligible independent funding or influence. It subsequently moved to Cairo and dissolved in 1959 by decree of Egyptian President Gamal Abdul Nasser.

1959–67 Egyptian occupation

After the dissolution of the All-Palestine Government in 1959, under the excuse of pan-Arabism, Egypt continued to occupy the Gaza Strip until 1967. Egypt never annexed the Gaza Strip, but instead treated it as a controlled territory and administered it through a military governor.[13] The influx of over 200,000 refugees into Gaza during the war resulted in a dramatic decrease in the standard of living. Because the Egyptian government restricted movement to and from the Gaza Strip, its inhabitants could not look elsewhere for gainful employment.[14]

1967 Israeli occupation

In June 1967, during the Six-Day War, Israel Defense Forces captured the Gaza Strip. Subsequent to this military victory, Israel re-created a historic settlement bloc, Gush Katif, in the southwest corner of the Strip near Rafah and the Egyptian border. History shows a continuous Jewish presence in Gaza until 1929, stretching back to biblical times and continuing until a violent ouster by Arab forces. In 1947, Jewish communities tried to re-settle parts of Gaza, buying land in the area during the 1930s and 1940s. These Jewish communities were destroyed in 1948 by Arab forces. In 1967, after a decisive military victory, Israel settled 21 communities in Gaza, comprising 20% of the total territory, which lasted until 2005.

In March 1979, Israel and Egypt signed the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty. Among other things, the treaty provided for the withdrawal by Israel of its armed forces and civilians from the Sinai Peninsula, which Israel had captured during the Six-Day War, to the 1906 international border.[citation needed] The Egyptians agreed to keep the Sinai Peninsula demilitarized. The final status of the Gaza Strip, and other relations between Israel and Palestinians, was not dealt with in the treaty. Egypt renounced all territorial claims to territory north of the international border. The Gaza Strip remained under Israeli military administration until 1994. During that time, the military was responsible for the maintenance of civil facilities and services.

Linky

It's interesting what the Media does to us. brings hate against one country to another..I remember watching good old "Training Day" when Denzel Washington said while reading the paper.."the news is 80-95% BS, but it entertains me".

The media, doesn't care if something is a lie or not, or in fact proven, they all do it for publicity..We on ATS shouldn't believe all that BS and get excited, news will always be fabricated for views.. We as a community shouldn't Jump the gun so quick, half of what Hamas says Is BS..maybe not 100% of what Israel says is true, but.. How do we know the truth about anything?

a reply to: stumason

Dear stumason,

Thanks for that history of the area, I appreciate it. You should know how easily I'm confused, and your post does that.

From your source:

In June 1967, during the Six-Day War, Israel Defense Forces captured the Gaza Strip. Subsequent to this military victory, Israel re-created a historic settlement bloc, Gush Katif, in the southwest corner of the Strip near Rafah and the Egyptian border. . . . In 1967, after a decisive military victory, Israel settled 21 communities in Gaza, comprising 20% of the total territory, which lasted until 2005.

My understanding, in my rather simple way, is that if you capture land and build towns on it, it's pretty clearly yours.

The final status of the Gaza Strip, and other relations between Israel and Palestinians, was not dealt with in the treaty. Egypt renounced all territorial claims to territory north of the international border.

If Egypt gave up all territorial claims to Gaza, what other country claimed it? Iraq? If it was claimed by anyone it would be Israel. Those are reasons why it looks to me like Gaza was Israel's to keep or give away.

The fact that it was under Israeli military occupation tells us two things. One, it was Israel's. Israel wasn't occupying a foreign country. Two, the people in that area had the military as their governing power, they weren't self-governing.

With respect,
Charles1952