A question to Americans defending Israel

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: g146541

I don't own a dictionary

Google is your friend!

there is a big debate as to what exactly defines terrorism.

Google says...
ter·ror·ism

/ˈterəˌrizəm/

noun

noun: terrorism

the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.


I was thinking before I checked that this is exactly what terrorism was,
I checked because you never know, the meanings of words get Orwellianated much nowadays.
(Side note: did I just create a new and accurate word???? Orwellianated!! Yay me!)

I understand what you are talking about now though, like when the USS Liberty was freedom fought by the israelis, or the planned freedom fighting on the innocents in the lavon affair, or the planes that were freedom fought on 911 by...well who really knows (I think many people do).
Those hamas folks are just freedom fighting when they attempt murder with their wholly impotent Estes rockets.

originally posted by: RUFFREADY
You come after me. I will make sure you don't do it again. That is about it.

EXACTLY!!!!
So why when israeli treachery was uncovered in the Lavon affair was all ties not cut with israel?
Then when our sailor were murdered on the USS Liberty, why did we not put everything else on hold and carpet bomb israel back into the stone age?

a reply to: ~Lucidity

AIPAC. Ugh. Don't even get me started. If people only knew how in bed our government is with them.

This is exactly what we have to drag into the light of day, this and lawmakers that have dual citizenship.!
This creates a paradox for those who hide behind the religious lies in support of israel.
What would their God do to a servant who serves two masters?
Something about jealousy I think..
We don't have to spread lies or propaganda, the truth, logic and even some biblical scripture is on our side!!!

a reply to: NavyDoc

A lot of it may be residue from cold war alliances--Israel was in pro-western camp

Israel was only in the western camp because of the money we gave them. Well that and for the secrets they stole then sold to the Russians like the ones they got from Pollard that led to the deaths of many of our agents.

Radical Islamists hate the US. Thus, it is natural for the US and Israel to be allies in that context.

How many times has these radicals said the reason why they hate America is because of our unwavering support of Israel?

Like the op pointed out in the beginning of this thread if any other nation had done any of the things to America like Israel has done congress would be begging the President to go to war with them. But seeing how it is Israel we let them get away with it and give them more money and weapons on top of it. By all rights we should have already cut all diplomatic ties with Israel and placed sanctions on them.

a reply to: sosobad

Since you can't classify terrorism

Can you??? why are you avoiding the issue.....

Hamas see themselves as freedom fighters but are classified as terrorists

You said it... definition of terrorism will not be agreed upon in this thread. Why are you pushing?

I am clearly asking a question not making a statement

You are doing both, unless you haven't realized!within your question you are stating/presuming that Israel is a terrorist state.

sometimes the truth hurts

No offense but you have never set foot in that area in the world..... what would you possibly know about truth in israel or gaza????
If you actually go to visit so as to have something to substantiate your views, then you would know 'truth'! but not as you think it now!

I think American's and others support Israel because they believe they are the "chosen ones". They believe everything they read and hear and so they back Israel. I believe most people in the world do follow blindly just like the days of Jesus. They were scared of the Truth so death and destruction follows. This is coming from a POV that the "jews" did in fact sentence Jesus to death. No hard feelings... it is what it is.. my pov.

I'm an American and have visited Israel. My husband works there off shore. He is due to go back Monday and I can only pray he stays safe. His work place can be looked at as nothing more than a huge bomb just waiting to go off. Its Israel's lifeline. I love the good people of Israel as well as the Palestinians and feel for anyone who has ever been displaced from their home.

I visited Tel Aviv and walked the streets of Jerusalem. The people there are really nice and I did notice Palestinians and Israeli's working side by side in the Old City as vendors... Muslims included. The Muslims and different religious people walked the streets and it seemed very peaceful while I was there. The people are just like us.. but the governments of our countries are not.

Our countries are lead by nothing more than greed, therefor we cannot expect peace. We can expect to be deluded and confused, therefor divided. We can expect wars.

a reply to: crazyewok

Are they important? Not really is Israel disappeared tomorrow it will hardly leave a big economic dent. What are there main exports besides misery and hate?

The economy of Israel is a market economy.[12] As of 2012, Israel ranks 16th among 187 nations on the UN's Human Development Index, which places it in the category of "Very Highly Developed".
Economy of Israel

TEconomy Main article: Economy of Israel
Israeli new shekel banknotes and coins Graphical depiction of Israel's product exports in 28 color-coded categories. Israel is considered one of the most advanced countries in Southwest Asia in economic and industrial development. In 2010, it joined the OECD.[28][321] The country is ranked 3rd in the region and 38th worldwide on the World Bank's Ease of Doing Business Index[322] as well as in the World Economic Forum's Global Competitiveness Report.[323] It has the second-largest number of startup companies in the world (after the United States)[324] and the largest number of NASDAQ-listed companies outside North America[/color].[325]xt
Israel

Israel is active in software, telecommunication and semiconductors development.[15] The high concentration of high-tech industries in Israel, which are backed by a strong venture capital industry, gave it the nickname "Silicon Wadi", which is considered second in importance only to its Californian counterpart.[16][17][18] Numerous Israeli companies have been acquired by global corporations for its reliable and quality corporate personnel.[19] The country was the destination for Berkshire Hathaway's first investment outside the United States when it purchased ISCAR Metalworking, and the first research and development centers outside the United States for companies including Intel, Microsoft, and Apple[19][20][21] American business magnates and investors Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, and Donald Trump have each praised Israel's economy and each entrepreneur has invested heavily in numerous Israeli industries that range include real estate, high technology, and manufacturing beyond their traditional business activities and investments back in the United States..[22][23][24][25][26][27][28] Israel is also a major tourist destination,
Economy of Israel

Technology sector Main articles: Science and technology in Israel and Silicon Wadi
Science and technology in Israel is one of the country's most highly developed and industrialized sectors. The percentage of Israelis engaged in scientific and technological inquiry, and the amount spent on research and development (R&D) in relation to gross domestic product (GDP), is amongst the highest in the world.[75] Israel ranks fourth in the world in scientific activity, as measured by the number of scientific publications per million citizens. Israel's percentage of the total number of scientific articles published worldwide is almost 10 times higher than its percentage of the world's population.[76] Despite its small population relative to other industrialized nations around the world, Israel has the highest number of scientists, technicians, and engineers per capita in the world with 140 scientists, technicians, and engineers per 10,000 employees. In comparison, the same is 85 per 10,000 in the United States and 83 per 10,000 in Japan.[77][78][79]
Economy of Israel

i haven't listed all of the sectors just a few. yeah i think they would be missed, not bad for a country with just over 8 million people.

a reply to: buster2010

This was a pretty good thread. There are many, many more. And AIPAC/our government pretty much squelches any repercussion. It's disgusting.

How Many Israeli Spies Need to be Caught Before Israel Stops Being An Ally?

a reply to: g146541

Congratulations on learning how to use Google!

Orwellianated is not a real word. but for the idea

Those hamas folks are just freedom fighting

HOnestly though? so thats what its called now? have you ever been to Gaza? have you ever seen in your own eyes how the Hamas manipulate and use their civilian population, their kids? I have seen (in person and to my utter dibelief)... i know how they view their palestinian civilian population and it is not freedom fighting, it is inhumane manipulation.
These Hamas so called 'freedom fighters' are the enemies of anybody who condemns using children as human shields or putting civilians in the line of fire intentionally in order to fight their propaganda war!

Maybe this is part of the answer to OP title question!

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: sosobad

Since you can't classify terrorism

Can you??? why are you avoiding the issue.....

Hamas see themselves as freedom fighters but are classified as terrorists

You said it... definition of terrorism will not be agreed upon in this thread. Why are you pushing?

I am clearly asking a question not making a statement

You are doing both, unless you haven't realized!within your question you are stating/presuming that Israel is a terrorist state.

sometimes the truth hurts

No offense but you have never set foot in that area in the world..... what would you possibly know about truth in israel or gaza????
If you actually go to visit so as to have something to substantiate your views, then you would know 'truth'! but not as you think it now!

What issue am I avoiding? That the Lavon affair was about terrorist acts, yes it was by Israel's own admission, how would you define it?

I am not pushing to define terrorism at all you are just trying to deflect the topic away from the original question, why do Americans support a state that used terrorist acts against them in the past? They leveled the middle east after 9/11 so it is a very valid question.

I stated Israel used terrorist acts against the US, I never called them a terrorist state.

Are you denying that these two events happened? I don't have to have set foot in Israel or Gaza to be allowed to talk about them, they are the truth, deal with it and stop derailing the thread

a reply to: sosobad

Im not saying that the Levon affair wasnt a despicable and shameful act. But it wasnt done with the backing of a nation. the rogue elements who pushed this agenda forward didnt end up having a bright future. Even the former president Katzav who honored them in 2005 or 2006 was annihilated in court over rape charges.

This is not the real face of ISrael.... it happened over 60 years ago and it was put down. it is something israeli's are ashamed of. Can you say the same for terrorists elements in the arab states?

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: sosobad

Im not saying that the Levon affair wasnt a despicable and shameful act. But it wasnt done with the backing of a nation. the rogue elements who pushed this agenda forward didnt end up having a bright future. Even the former president Katzav who honored them in 2005 or 2006 was annihilated in court over rape charges.

This is not the real face of ISrael.... it happened over 60 years ago and it was put down. it is something israeli's are ashamed of. Can you say the same for terrorists elements in the arab states?

Have those honors been revoked?

a reply to: sosobad

Im not sure... but i dont think so. unfortunately!

I would revoke and imprison. but politics is politics! it doesnt mirror what people feel on a whole! and sometimes words do no justice, one has to experience it in person!

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: sosobad

Im not sure... but i dont think so. unfortunately!

I would revoke and imprison. but politics is politics! it doesnt mirror what people feel on a whole! and sometimes words do no justice, one has to experience it in person!

This thread isn't about the Israeli people as a whole, they are like everyone else in this world want to just live their lives and I respect that.

a reply to: whyamIhere

Alternatives were indeed considered, but Israel won out in the long run due to the cultural connection to that specific land. Honestly the alternatives would have been better in terms of natural resources and such, but the land currently known as Israel would have still had that special draw to it for said cultural reasons...

That's part of what makes Zionism such a tricky issue in the Jewish community. On the one hand it is possible to be Jewish and be opposed to the current Israeli regime and their policies. But on the other hand it's much more difficult to be Jewish and be completely opposed to Zionism in the broader sense which affirms some level of Jewish connection to the land. References to Zion (in this sense, Zion = Jerusalem), the fruits and fauna of the land, the various geographical features, etc, permeates our liturgy. The Jewish holidays are almost all related to events in the land or linked with seasons as they happen in the land.

There are some religious groups which are opposed to Zionism because they believe the Jewish messiah must come back first before Jews can return and have a state at all, but they are very fringe. Specifically those groups are the Neturei Karta and some of the Satmar. It's hard to adequately explain how fringe these groups are compared to the amount of press they get. Satmar make up less than %0.5 of Jews, and NK is much smaller (they're more like the Westboro Baptist Church of Judaism). My point is that this religious view is not as widespread in the Jewish community as some people who oppose all forms of Zionism would make it seem.

a reply to: sosobad

It's definitely a polarizing issue, so I completely understand why it's difficult for some people to discuss it without getting offended. To be fair, it does hurt when I read some of the really anti-Israel comments (criticism of the existence of the whole country, as opposed to criticism of specific issues or policies), but as my mom always says, "feelings aren't facts."

Thanks for the welcome

originally posted by: buster2010
a reply to: NavyDoc

A lot of it may be residue from cold war alliances--Israel was in pro-western camp

Israel was only in the western camp because of the money we gave them. Well that and for the secrets they stole then sold to the Russians like the ones they got from Pollard that led to the deaths of many of our agents.

Radical Islamists hate the US. Thus, it is natural for the US and Israel to be allies in that context.

How many times has these radicals said the reason why they hate America is because of our unwavering support of Israel?

Like the op pointed out in the beginning of this thread if any other nation had done any of the things to America like Israel has done congress would be begging the President to go to war with them. But seeing how it is Israel we let them get away with it and give them more money and weapons on top of it. By all rights we should have already cut all diplomatic ties with Israel and placed sanctions on them.

Shrug. I wasn't attempting to validate any of those, just to point out that there are a myriad of reasons why people might support Israel, not just the Jebus crowd.

originally posted by: combatmaster
This is not the real face of ISrael.... it happened over 60 years ago and it was put down.

I actually think that's a fair point to consider. Many national militaries start out as militias which engage in "terrorist acts" at least from the point of view of the opposing side (the US military included). At the time of the Lavon affair, the Israeli defense establishment was less than a decade removed from such groups. And there was still a huge backlash against it by the Israeli public even back then. (Of course not from everyone, but that's also par for the course.)

I think the likelihood of Israel pulling something like that against the US today is pretty slim. It's an open secret that both countries spy on each other big time... Remember that American-Israeli dual citizens are just as much a risk in this regard for Israel as they are for the US. At the very least there would have to be some kind of cooperation between intelligence agencies, with the Americans choosing to look the other way to allow an Israeli operation.

a reply to: sosobad

I have often reasoned the same.
What else can they do?They have no Tanks,no Warships,no fighter jets and no Nuclear weapons.
There is also a blockade on Gaza.
The biggest terrorists are the Zionist government,always the victim,never the cold blooded killers.
Why are Hamas the terrorists and yet the Zionists are not?Because we are fed that from a pro Israeli media.
I'm no fan of Hamas but the hypocrisy of saying one is terrorist and the other is not is the biggest delusion going.
Both are responsible for the deaths of the innocent,both child murdering scumbags.

I have friends from Israel and have had Jewish girlfriends,to criticize Zionism is not anti Jewish.
I am British and criticize and slate the British government for it's lie and deceptions especially to get us into Iraq,it does not mean i'm anti British.
I think Israel is sowing it's own destruction in what it's doing in Gaza right now,i feel bad for the normal Israeli Jew that left Europe for a better life to end up creating one of the most insane lunatic governments that mirror the same type of Pig headed Nazism they escaped.

a reply to: hounddoghowlie
Not bad until you take into consideration all israeli tech was stolen from the US.
It's like having a race, but the israelis start at the finish line...