J. White calculates why Apollo craft could not have survived passage through the VABs

originally posted by: wmd_2008

originally posted by: FoosM

originally posted by: Rob48


Now do you see why Gemini encountered MORE radiation than Apollo?

Did you answer any of my questions Rob?
Cause it sounds like you are stalling.

FoosM these things have been explained MANY MANY times on MANY MANY threads you query everything anyone presents as information against the blunder from down under, yet you seem to except everything he claims even when people like Rob show his errors NOW this is either you being deliberately deceitful or you are the most stupid person on the planet so which is it.

Lets see who is deceitful.
Did any Apollo mission or Gemini mission fly through the heart of the belts?

a reply to: FoosM

And again, and again, and again, and again.

Because Apollo spent about 2 hours in belts total. It went through them on the way out, and again on the way in. The shuttle would be orbiting in them, which means that it would be in them constantly, which means their exposure would be much higher.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: FoosM

And again, and again, and again, and again.

Because Apollo spent about 2 hours in belts total. It went through them on the way out, and again on the way in. The shuttle would be orbiting in them, which means that it would be in them constantly, which means their exposure would be much higher.

Rob48

Apollo spent less than EIGHT hours in the belts in total.

Tell me, who is right, you or Rob?

a reply to: FoosM

Which of the following is correct:

8 is less than 2

8 equals 2

8 is greater than 2

originally posted by: FoosM

Ok, then just show the proof.
How many times and how long vs Apollo?

I did. Please READ the replies to your posts, and you might learn.

Approx 30 mins per orbit x 44 orbits = 22 hours for Gemini 10.

Approx 3-4 hours per transit x 2 transits = 6-8 hours for Apollo 11.

You can't give precise figures because there are no hard boundaries. The belts gradually taper off to nothing; especially the outer belts. Defining an exact edge is impossible. 4 hours for each leg on Apollo is probably overstating it somewhat. With respect to Zaphod, I think it is a lot closer to 8 hours in total than 2 hours in total. But remember: much of those 8 hours will be in the outer belts which are mostly electron radiation. Which, as we have seen, adds very little radiation dose.

please inform us how fast Apollo was going on its return trip to Earth, vs its trip going to the moon.
Was the speed the same?

Within about 1%, yes. Their highest speed on the way out was 24,235 mph, right after the third stage burn. Their fastest speed coming back was 24,678 mph, at the start of entry interface to the atmosphere. Bonus question: why are these speeds almost the same?

originally posted by: Rob48

originally posted by: FoosM

originally posted by: Rob48


Now do you see why Gemini encountered MORE radiation than Apollo?

Did you answer any of my questions Rob?
Cause it sounds like you are stalling.

Yes. Yes I did. I even drew you a diagram.

Gemini 10 passed through the belts repeatedly. More than FORTY TIMES.

Apollo passed through the belts TWICE - once on the way to the moon and once on the way back. Maybe 3-4 hours to cross it each way even if you count the very outermost reaches.

Apollo spent less than EIGHT hours in the belts in total.

Gemini 10 spent about 30 minutes per orbit in the belts. For 44 orbits.

30 minutes x 44 orbits = 22 HOURS in the belts!

22 HOURS of exposure is more than 8 HOURS of exposure.

Please tell me you can understand this basic concept?

Here's that diagram again, in case you don't get it:

However, Gemini 11 DIDN'T go through the SAA, and as you can see from the table, the radiation level was far less than even Apollo 11 (which measured 173 millirad).

It's really quite straightforward, Foos. The missions that spent LONGER in the belts encountered MORE radiation in total.

It's almost... what's the word...?

OBVIOUS!

Come on Rob48, did Gemini X pass through the SAA 44 times or just 4 times?

a reply to: FoosM

As far as the time that they spent, I'd say him. As far as shielding and time, and radiation matters, we're both right. And even if I'm wrong on the total amount of time it doesn't change anything, because the reasons I gave are still correct. The shuttle would spend weeks in orbit, which would be days of total exposure if they were up in the VAB, as opposed to the hours that Apollo spent in them.

originally posted by: onebigmonkey
a reply to: FoosM

Which of the following is correct:

8 is less than 2

8 equals 2

8 is greater than 2

So tell me who is right, Zaphod58 or Rob48 regarding the time Apollo spent in the belts?
And maybe you are willing to answer the question people are
for one reason or another, running from: Did any Apollo or Gemini mission fly through the core or harshest
part of the belts?

a reply to: Rob48

Oh, I trust your figures a lot more than mine honestly. You have spent a lot more time with Apollo than I have. I'll trust myself when it comes to radiation, shielding, and things like that. But for the fine details like how long they were in the Belts, then hats off to you.

Now you want to come play in my forum, and it's game on.

originally posted by: FoosM

Come on Rob48, did Gemini X pass through the SAA 44 times or just 4 times?

Where are you getting four times from? 44 orbits. Not all of them were the highest orbits, of course, but all of them reached 250km or higher and all but the first 4 were entirely above 290km.

And maybe you are willing to answer the question people are
for one reason or another, running from: Did any Apollo or Gemini mission fly through the core or harshest
part of the belts?

The reason nobody is answering your question is that it is incredibly vague. What do you define as "the harshest part of the belts"? What level of flux?

Gemini 10 passed through the SAA repeatedly. That is part of the lower belt and not the most intense part. Apollo passed through the edge of the inner belt and passed through quite intense regions ( greater than 10^6 particles per cm² per sec) of the outer belt. But these are electrons and not very hazardous, as you will know if you watched my video.

a reply to: FoosM

Not running from it, just sick of repeating it. Maybe when you provide links and sources for your own claims, which you repeatedly fail to do, then you might get more co-operation.

Go search the thread, or even better, find the answer yourself somewhere else and present us with it, with links and references.

Prove your assertion, or you're making it up.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: FoosM

As far as the time that they spent, I'd say him. As far as shielding and time, and radiation matters, we're both right. And even if I'm wrong on the total amount of time it doesn't change anything, because the reasons I gave are still correct. The shuttle would spend weeks in orbit, which would be days of total exposure if they were up in the VAB, as opposed to the hours that Apollo spent in them.

Wait... wait... weren't you the one who said:

Because, as has been explained to you so many times that I've lost count, time plays a huge factor in the exposure amount. If you stay longer in the VAB, you get more exposure. Go figure.

Well I would like to, because you seem to now say that a two hour stay in the belts is no different than an 8
hour stay. How does that work? I thought it was all about going through it quickly.

And why do you believe Rob48 about the 8 hour stay
all of a sudden? Did you go fact check it, or do you just believe everything people tell you?
Because Im wondering who told you about the 2 hours in the first place?

originally posted by: Rob48

originally posted by: FoosM

Come on Rob48, did Gemini X pass through the SAA 44 times or just 4 times?

Where are you getting four times from?

However, a slight correction from me: 44 was the total number of orbits. The first few were in a lower orbit before docking and burning into the higher one. I know that docking was achieved on the fourth orbit but I can't find the exact time of the burn just yet.

Im getting it from NASA.
And if I understand it correctly, you might have to make more than a slight correction.

a reply to: FoosM

Six hours is not going to suddenly make it unpassable, no matter how you try to twist things. It doesn't matter if it took them two hours, or if it took them eight hours, they still wouldn't have had a problem getting through them. Now if it took them days to get through it, then it might be a different story, but it didn't so it's not.

originally posted by: onebigmonkey
a reply to: FoosM

Not running from it, just sick of repeating it. Maybe when you provide links and sources for your own claims, which you repeatedly fail to do, then you might get more co-operation.

Go search the thread, or even better, find the answer yourself somewhere else and present us with it, with links and references.

Prove your assertion, or you're making it up.

Where are your sources?
I see a lot of people here spouting off opinions as facts without sources.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: FoosM

Six hours is not going to suddenly make it unpassable, no matter how you try to twist things. It doesn't matter if it took them two hours, or if it took them eight hours, they still wouldn't have had a problem getting through them. Now if it took them days to get through it, then it might be a different story, but it didn't so it's not.

But you are saying their radiation readings are based on 2 hours not 6 or 8.
So why is there no change in their readings?

originally posted by: FoosM

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: FoosM

Six hours is not going to suddenly make it unpassable, no matter how you try to twist things. It doesn't matter if it took them two hours, or if it took them eight hours, they still wouldn't have had a problem getting through them. Now if it took them days to get through it, then it might be a different story, but it didn't so it's not.

But you are saying their radiation readings are based on 2 hours not 6 or 8.
So why is there no change in their readings?

Foos. Stop derailing. Zaphod admits he made an error with two hours.

That is irrelevant.

What do you mean by "there is no change in their readings"? What does that even MEAN?

22 hours is a lot more than 8 hours.

a reply to: FoosM

And 2 hours or 8 hours, their readings are still going to be lower than Gemini, or the shuttle would have been if the shuttle had gone up into the VAB, because both of those would be looking at continuous exposure on every orbit, whereas Apollo was looking at two quick transits, one outbound, and one inbound.

And I didn't say anything about it being six hours. Do the math, 8-2=6. There was a six hour difference between my mistake, and what it actually was.

originally posted by: FoosM

Im getting it from NASA.
And if I understand it correctly, you might have to make more than a slight correction.

I'm going to guess that you don't understand it correctly, given that you had to ask whether the speed of the Apollo spacecraft on the way back was the same as the speed on the way out. Perhaps you could demonstrate your understanding of orbital mechanics by explaining why this is so?

A related question: why was the radiation dose on Gemini 11 so much lower than on Gemini 10, even though 11 went so much higher?

Or are you not inclined to give us any answers?

originally posted by: FoosM

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: FoosM

Six hours is not going to suddenly make it unpassable, no matter how you try to twist things. It doesn't matter if it took them two hours, or if it took them eight hours, they still wouldn't have had a problem getting through them. Now if it took them days to get through it, then it might be a different story, but it didn't so it's not.

But you are saying their radiation readings are based on 2 hours not 6 or 8.
So why is there no change in their readings?

You are trying to nit pick something that you seem to think will be a smoking gun, when in fact, you've still shot yourself in the foot. Here is why:

Does not mater if it took Apollo 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or even 24 hours to go through the belts, or even the "harshest" parts of the belts. Because that amount of time will NOT give a lethal dose of radiation.

In order to receive a much higher dose that will end up being lethal, an astronaut will need to spend many days to weeks, or even longer in the VABS.

This has been shown to you already for several pages now. You've been shown with math how much one would receive.

You have been shown even with your very own articles that YOU posted that the time spent in the VABs going to and from the moon is not enough to cause a problem because the duration of traveling through the VABs is too short to cause a lethal dose.

The space shuttle was not designed for the VABs, but that does not mean that they could not have traversed THROUGH the VABs or been in them for a few hours.
Shuttle missions lasted days or longer, and NO it was not designed to be in the VABs for DAYS or HOURS.

You can nit pick about the time all you want, but as long as it was under a day (and by the end of the first day of flight, Apollo was well away from the VABs and on it's way to the moon), and even if it had gone through the heart of the VABs, we have shown over and over and over that they never would have received a lethal dose.

Let's see your math and proof of otherwise. So far, you have utterly failed to do so.