J. White calculates why Apollo craft could not have survived passage through the VABs

a reply to: FoosM

It will only seem that way to people like you.

Which are people that just can not seem to grasp how radiation works, how exposure to said radiation works.

Until you can firmly grasp everything that factors into it.

You still do not get it, do you? The amount of time spent in the areas that you are talking about is also paramount to understanding dosage.

The last post you just made, the article you are highlighting is more concerned with long term space flight. Did you bother to even read the last paragraph of the article that you pasted into your post?

Furthermore, other than the manned lunar landings, from which radiation exposure beyond LEO was also relatively short-term given the flight plans, we have little definitive data to base long-term human radiation exposure projections beyond LEO.

The amount of time of exposure is key when it comes to the VABs.

You've been shown over and over that the VABs never posed a threat to any astronaut that travels through them, as long as they keep their time in the VABs short.

originally posted by: FoosM

Why would I complain that JW was using those models?

the same reason why you are complaining now obviously.. i never saw you complain about Jarrah using old and outdated charts.

Those models are all we have had for a long time. And I have been pointing for quite a while they were outdated.

they have been available for a long time, and so have satellites.. are you claiming satellites are actually a myth also??

if, as you want to believe, these charts are extremely under-representing the energy and flux levels in the VAB, how has any satellite been operational for more than a year considering they use this data to design their satellites??

And yes, they are outdated. There is a reason why they have been working on AE9 and AP9.

and how different are the AE9 and AP9 data to the AE8 and AP8 according to you??
because from what i have seen the AE9 and AP9 data further diminishes your argument that the VAB are impassable.

In video format: Why Jarrah is wrong.



Please excuse the low production values: I did a science degree, not film studies like Jarrah.

(I hope posting your own videos on here doesn't break any rules. It's the first one I've ever done and I guarantee I wouldn't even know where to begin with earning money off YouTube!)

a reply to: Rob48

This is actually WAY BETTER than than the aussie blunder kid video and why do I say that because the info is CORRECT!!

Now FoosM with some BS excuse why you are wrong in 5 ...4....3....

originally posted by: wmd_2008
a reply to: Rob48

This is actually WAY BETTER than than the aussie blunder kid and why do I say that because the info is CORRECT!!

Now FoosM with some BS excuse why you are wrong in 5 ...4....3....

I'm not so sure - there's no spooky techno music and very little in the way of pottery flowers.

a reply to: Rob48


Well way to put the nail in the coffin on that one. So should we email it to Jarra ah hed ignore it anyway he doesnt believe the stuff he puts out. Hes just trying to make money selling stuff to the gullible.

originally posted by: wmd_2008
a reply to: Rob48

This is actually WAY BETTER than than the aussie blunder kid video and why do I say that because the info is CORRECT!!

Well strictly speaking my numbers for the Bremsstrahlung radiation will be rather too high (as I said in the video), because I am just taking the mean energy to be halfway between the two MeV levels. In fact because of the way the flux tails off exponentially, the mean energy for, say, 1 - 2 MeV electrons will probably be more like 1.1 MeV rather than 1.5 MeV.

But I didn't want to be accused of underestimating, and I wasn't going to start tackling integrations at this stage. (Why should I bother, when Jarrah's approach is straight out of the "builder's estimate" school of maths: Think of a number and double it!)

What did soon become clear is how long it takes to do even a short text-based video like this. How does JW find the time? And more importantly, how much money is it earning him in order to make it worth his while? His videos don't seem to get much attention: the last one, "Better Eight Than Never" was posted three months ago and currently has 4,003 views! Not quite viral, is it?

a reply to: Rob48

The final result shows that it is possible to travel through the VAB thats really what we are talking about!

I cant find one Astronaut with a Physics degree who has been through the VAB as I was going to suggest that they would have probably calculated the radiation risk themselves in advance of trusting other people -assuming they werent in on the "hoax".

It seems the best qualification to get a journey through the VAB is to have been a Boyscout when you were a child.

No wonder there are so many sceptics...if one of the pre-requisites was to be able to act as a scientific spokesperson for explaining how things were achieved- rather than to have worn a woggle, I'm sure the whole moon landing thing would be a lot better represented.

a reply to: Jukiodone
Why do you expect the pilots to have to work all this stuff out? Surely solving the technical problems is the work of the back-room boys.

I wouldn't expect a Formula 1 driver to be able to integrate the downforce over the spoiler of his car. He would assume that the designers of the car had done their job!

I'm guessing Aldrin's PhD in orbital rendezvous is the wrong sort of physics.

You probably did need to be a boy scout to get through the VAB, as long as you followed this up with a career as a pilot, test-pilot and Mercury and/or Gemini astronaut.

One of the things that has impressed me about all the Apollo astronauts I have met (which now adds up to TK Mattingly, Alan Bean, Charles Duke and Gene Cernan) is the depth of knowledge they have about a huge range of subjects - usually ones that will have guaranteed they got to and from the moon in one piece.

I do liken them to F1 drivers in this respect. Formula 1 drivers might not be able to do downforce calculations in their head, but their understanding of what factors influence it and what happens in various degrees of it way exceeds the average person's. Apollo astronauts would not need to have known about the VAB and the various particle energies in the different areas of it, but they knew about the trajectory round them and what they need to do in order to achieve that.

a reply to: Rob48

Going round a track in a formula 1 car is:

A: Something everyone can witness for themselves if they so choose
B: Is not of significance to every human being
C: Not an essential proof of concept to prove humanity might exist beyond the present solar incarnation


They didnt have one guy who had the pop-sci physics background to tell us from a first person perspective, how the most important physics experiment ever actually felt?

Just for clarity I dont doubt it is mechanically possible for biological entities to traverse the VAB but I do sympathise with doubters when it's seemingly more important trait to be a traditionally compliant, fraternity member than to be a Physicist ( former Boy Scout myself BTW).

Edit: Wasn't Aldrins PHD post moon?

I assumed there would be one person who could be termed as a proper physicist on takeoff but I cant find them.

originally posted by: Jukiodone
a reply to: Rob48

Going round a track in a formula 1 car is:

A: Something everyone can witness for themselves if they so choose
B: Is not of significance to every human being
C: Not an essential proof of concept to prove humanity might exist beyond the present solar incarnation


They didnt have one guy who had the pop-sci physics background to tell us from a first person perspective, how the most important physics experiment ever actually felt?

Just for clarity I dont doubt it is mechanically possible for biological entities to traverse the VAB but I do sympathise with doubters when it's seemingly more important trait to be a traditionally compliant, fraternity member than to be a Physicist ( former Boy Scout myself BTW).

Edit: Wasn't Aldrins PHD post moon?

I assumed there would be one person who could be termed as a proper physicist on takeoff but I cant find them.

WHY? At the end of the day they were employed first because of there skills as pilots, taking the the F1 analogy an F1 driver skill is in how he can control a car at high spend and his understanding of the dynamics of the machine entering and leaving corners at speed, he may not understand HOW to calculate those forces but he understands how they effect the machine he is driving.

a reply to: Jukiodone

Aldrin's PhD was actually pre-Gemini.

The only actual scientist to go was Harrison Schmitt - a geologist. As said above, they weren't initially picked for their science skills. Many people argued against Schmitt because he didn't have the background as a pilot.

Many Apollo astronauts are still around to recount their experiences of what it was like - that part requires no physics degree, just an ability to communicate with people. All 4 of the astronauts I've met spoke very eloquently of their experiences. Buy the ticket and anyone can do the same.

originally posted by: Jukiodone

They didnt have one guy who had the pop-sci physics background to tell us from a first person perspective, how the most important physics experiment ever actually felt?

why do you need a scientist with a phd in physics to tell people what it is like in 1/6g when they can do that in the vomit comet??

given that they wanted to know more about the moons composition, a trained geologist makes alot more sense than a physicist.

originally posted by: Jukiodone
I cant find one Astronaut with a Physics degree who has been through the VAB as I was going to suggest that they would have probably calculated the radiation risk themselves in advance of trusting other people -assuming they werent in on the "hoax".

It seems the best qualification to get a journey through the VAB is to have been a Boyscout when you were a child.

No wonder there are so many sceptics...if one of the pre-requisites was to be able to act as a scientific spokesperson for explaining how things were achieved- rather than to have worn a woggle, I'm sure the whole moon landing thing would be a lot better represented.

Astronauts didnt even know they even went far enough to encounter the VABs.


Basically he is saying they stayed in LEO.

NASA trying to figure out how to get rid of something that is supposedly not dangerous for space travel, lol.

“In deep space the challenges are zero gravity and a radiation environment. So bone loss, muscle loss and the radiation as you don’t have the atmosphere of the Earth to protect you,” said Laurence Price Deputy Program Manager at Lockheed Martin.

Price is talking about the Van Allen Belt, a tightly packed field of radiation around the earth that acts as a layer that protects earth from charged ions. NASA has to study this area of radiation before they can send a manned spaceflight through it,

www.engineering.com... nts.aspx

OK, one thing we need to clear up, and can clear up, on both sides of the debate is whether or not Apollo
astronauts flew through the harshest regions of the belt.

Who here still thinks Apollo managed to skip these regions? Whats your proof?

Who here thinks Apollo went through these regions? Whats your proof?

Did Apollo or didnt Apollo go through the heart of the radiation belt?

www.braeunig.us...:

The hoax advocates also make the mistake of limiting themselves to two-dimensional thinking. The Van Allen Radiation Belts consist of a doughnut-shaped region centered on Earth's magnetic equator. The translunar trajectories followed by the Apollo spacecraft were typically inclined about 30 degrees to Earth's equator, therefore Apollo bypassed all but the edges of the radiation belts, greatly reducing the exposure.

www.clavius.org...:

Each mission flew a slightly different trajectory in order to access its landing site, but the orbital inclination of the translunar coast trajectory was always in the neighborhood of 30°. Stated another way, the geometric plane containing the translunar trajectory was inclined to the earth's equator by about 30°. A spacecraft following that trajectory would bypass all but the edges of the Van Allen belts.

So Phil Plait say Apollo knicked the belts, but the Gemini deep into the heart of the VABs.

Is this correct? Anybody agree with him?