What Nelson Mandela said about the Palestinian people...

originally posted by: dollukka

Man is known by the company he keeps.. He was not a saint people.. He is just poser for ideology and to what they want to show us TPTB.

Doesn't make his statement untrue.

a reply to: KaelemJames

I appreciate what you're saying but my underlying point is that there was a whole people there that didn't have equal rights under the law before. Are you saying that was better for them? The whole reason I bring up Mandela, is because he was one of the catalysts for change in SA and it was a pretty good open letter. I think the Palestinian situation is very similar.

What then do you propose that as long as crime rates are down it's better to have one race or one ethnicity subjugated by another race. I don't think that's an option if you are the people with less rights. I would fight against that. Wouldn't you if the tables had been turned.

Not speculation at all but good hard questions.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
Doesn't make his statement untrue.

Makes JUST as much sense as trusting a broken clock just because it's occasionally right...

Or eating rat poison because it contains some good ingredients as well as poison.

Good disinfo agents ALWAYS mix good info in with bad info.

Disinformation and rat poison are a lot alike that way.

To be effective, they both must look, taste, and smell like the real thing and contain some elements of truth.

a reply to: amazing
I won't presume to speak for Kaelem and I hope that her experienced and informed contributions to this discussion will continue, but I think you are missing her point entirely.

Sounds to me that she is saying society in SA is still NOT equal and progress has NOT been made. The oppressed became the oppressor, and human rights are violated on a daily basis just as they were before apartheid ended.

The sociological pendulum swung past the ideal middle and then kept going in the other wrong direction. An unfortunate trend that repeats itself throughout history, and all over the globe.

originally posted by: Murgatroid
There is no such thing as “The Palestinian homeland”.
Palestinians are mythical fake refugees with a fake history.
Jesus never ever walked about in the streets and villages of 'Palestine'.
Five minutes in any search engine plainly shows that Palestinian history is a complete fabrication.

It was a dumping ground for undesirables and refugees that the Arab countries around there used. I think back when Egypt controlled the area 200k to 500k people were put there by them as a transplant of groups they did not want in Egypt, then they handed the whole mess to Israel to govern.

When we look at the Ottoman Empire (1300 to 1920s) we see a very wide area covering many countries of today, and it is funny that many think these countries of today are somehow old when reality is they came about in the 1920s and Jordan and Israel came about 20 years later. We also need to understand that the sparse groups of people that lived there during the Ottoman Empire were nomads that traveled all over the area, so even looking at that area up to the early 1900s there were no countries other than the Ottoman Empire that ruled for centuries.

a reply to: samsamm9

Couldn't agree more

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
a reply to: amazing
I won't presume to speak for Kaelem and I hope that her experienced and informed contributions to this discussion will continue, but I think you are missing her point entirely.

Sounds to me that she is saying society in SA is still NOT equal and progress has NOT been made. The oppressed became the oppressor, and human rights are violated on a daily basis just as they were before apartheid ended.

The sociological pendulum swung past the ideal middle and then kept going in the other wrong direction. An unfortunate trend that repeats itself throughout history, and all over the globe.

OpenMindedRealist - you've nailed it. Much appreciated. Thank you, very much

@amazing - Please, if I came across as rude, I apologize, sincerely.

Only if people could understand where I/we SAfricans come from. Yes, I don't deny what happened in the apartheid era. Nor will I say it was as bad as the media (or movies) made it out to be. We can go further into such discussions if you wish via PM, or another thread.

What irks me is the whole "Mandela messiah complex" with the ignorant world. It angers me that I was one whom rooted for Mandela's release, and a change for a "rainbow nation". There is no such thing as a rainbow nation. It is a farce. We are far, by far worse off at the present time than 20 years ago. There is no words to really explain how this country has declined into an abyss in past 20 years.

People would laugh if I have to tell them how strong South Africa was 20-30 years ago. Google it, please.

If all of South Africa would have worked as one after 1991/4.. Oh, Wow..

You reckon that the children of those whom were pro apartheid should suffer, even if those kids are innocent? Why? 'Cos payback is payback, and the white people deserve it? Even though we (our children) are not guilty of anything?

Thank you, MSM.

originally posted by: Murgatroid
There is no such thing as “The Palestinian homeland”.

Palestinians are mythical fake refugees with a fake history.

Jesus never ever walked about in the streets and villages of 'Palestine'.

Five minutes in any search engine plainly shows that Palestinian history is a complete fabrication.

I think remembering HOW he walked, is more important than WHERE he walked.

WWJD?

If he ever returns and see's us fighting over where he walked, I bet he'll be disappointed.

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
a reply to: amazing
I won't presume to speak for Kaelem and I hope that her experienced and informed contributions to this discussion will continue, but I think you are missing her point entirely.

Sounds to me that she is saying society in SA is still NOT equal and progress has NOT been made. The oppressed became the oppressor, and human rights are violated on a daily basis just as they were before apartheid ended.

The sociological pendulum swung past the ideal middle and then kept going in the other wrong direction. An unfortunate trend that repeats itself throughout history, and all over the globe.

But then we have the meat of that discussion then. Are we better off discriminating against an ethnic group or are we better off when all groups are equal to one anther? The obvious answer is that all should be equal under the law, with the same rights and protections.

originally posted by: smithjustinb

originally posted by: technical difficulties
Figure I'd bring that up just in case you felt like derailing this thread even more.

Since when did presenting the counter argument become derailing?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You are entitled to support Sharia law and Muslim Caliphates, and I am entitled to support people who don't kill people because they don't share the same beliefs. Whatever.

A counter argument to an argument that hasn't been brought up. The quote you're replying to just says a group of people is dangerous, that's it. A counter argument would be something showing that they aren't dangerous, not bringing up another group in a thinly-veiled attempt to change the subject.

It's safe to say that you don't, since deflection isn't exactly something done by a person who's confident in their arguments.

I support Sharia Law as much you support staying on topic, which is to say not at all.

originally posted by: tetra50

originally posted by: smithjustinb

originally posted by: tetra50
I'm too old, too cynical,

That explains it.

Way to go backwards, read through what I wrote, and get totally personal. Yeah, I said it, but you highlighting it, instead of pertinent facts I gave about the situation, says it all about you, as well.
tet

Except they aren't facts. They are conspiracy theories.

You call me "out of touch", and then you write:

originally posted by: Murgatroid

The Muslim 'Brotherhood' is an Illuminati fabrication, they created it and they fund it.

The fact that historical 'sources' didn't tell you about this means absolutely SQUAT.

lol.

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
Doesn't make his statement untrue.

Makes JUST as much sense as trusting a broken clock just because it's occasionally right...

Or eating rat poison because it contains some good ingredients as well as poison.

Good disinfo agents ALWAYS mix good info in with bad info.

Disinformation and rat poison are a lot alike that way.

To be effective, they both must look, taste, and smell like the real thing and contain some elements of truth.

That's just non sense. First off Mandelas questionable connections stem from his ex wife and former associations. Second.. all of your analogies are weak. It's a correct statement. Even Jimmy Carter calls the situation in Israel an apartheid.

Anyone with common sense knows the Palestinians are treated unjustly by Israel. They are shoved into little open air prisons and bombed with no place to go. When the world isn't watching (because they aren't firing rockets to get the worlds attention) they are being mistreated, subject to laws that Israelis aren't subject to, and having their land stolen.

When the Palestinians are free and have a state the wars will only get worse.The radical muslims are hell bent on mass murdering jews and wiping out Israel and Jerusalem.Just watch and see it unfold.

originally posted by: Murgatroid
There is no such thing as “The Palestinian homeland”.

Palestinians are mythical fake refugees with a fake history.

Jesus never ever walked about in the streets and villages of 'Palestine'.

Five minutes in any search engine plainly shows that Palestinian history is a complete fabrication.

Indeed, there is no such a thing like a Palestinian people, or a Palestinian culture, or a Palestinian language, or a Palestinian history. There has never been any Palestinian state, neither any Palestinian archaeological find nor coinage. The present-day “Palestinians” are an Arab people, with Arab culture, Arabic language and Arab history. They have their own Arab states from where they came into the Land of Israel about one century ago to contrast the Jewish immigration. That is the historical truth. They were Jordanians (another recent British invention, as there has never been any people known as “Jordanians”), and after the Six-Day War in which Israel utterly defeated the coalition of nine Arab states and took legitimate possession of Judea and Samaria, the Arab dwellers in those regions underwent a kind of anthropological miracle and discovered that they were Palestinians – something they did not know the day before.

Origin of the Name Palestine

After the destruction of the second Temple by the Roman Empire, the name of the land was changed to Palestine, to erase the name of the Jewish entities that had existed there- Judea and the Israel- and the name of Jerusalem was changed as well- to Capitonlina. this is how the Romans controlled the places they conquered- remove the original settlers and erase the name of the land from memory.

To use the name Palestine in the mouth of Arabs who claim it as their homeland is a terrible lie, and is preventing Israel from living in peace. the Jews did not come to throw peaceful shepherds out of their picturesque villages. the Jews came home to their ancient land after having tried for 2000 years to put down roots in other places. since no such place existed anywhere, the revival of the Jewish state was the result. a blessed event which the world should applaud. instead, now there is a movement afoot to deny the Jews their independence. so-called historical Palestine includes Syria and Jordan, yet the Arabs of Gaza and Judea and Samaria do not claim that for themselves. it should make one think!! so think!

www.palestinefacts.org...

NIce to see someone show actual facts.

originally posted by: Murgatroid
There is no such thing as “The Palestinian homeland”.

Palestinians are mythical fake refugees with a fake history.

Jesus never ever walked about in the streets and villages of 'Palestine'.

Five minutes in any search engine plainly shows that Palestinian history is a complete fabrication.

Indeed, there is no such a thing like a Palestinian people, or a Palestinian culture, or a Palestinian language, or a Palestinian history. There has never been any Palestinian state, neither any Palestinian archaeological find nor coinage. The present-day “Palestinians” are an Arab people, with Arab culture, Arabic language and Arab history. They have their own Arab states from where they came into the Land of Israel about one century ago to contrast the Jewish immigration. That is the historical truth. They were Jordanians (another recent British invention, as there has never been any people known as “Jordanians”), and after the Six-Day War in which Israel utterly defeated the coalition of nine Arab states and took legitimate possession of Judea and Samaria, the Arab dwellers in those regions underwent a kind of anthropological miracle and discovered that they were Palestinians – something they did not know the day before.

Origin of the Name Palestine

After the destruction of the second Temple by the Roman Empire, the name of the land was changed to Palestine, to erase the name of the Jewish entities that had existed there- Judea and the Israel- and the name of Jerusalem was changed as well- to Capitonlina. this is how the Romans controlled the places they conquered- remove the original settlers and erase the name of the land from memory.

To use the name Palestine in the mouth of Arabs who claim it as their homeland is a terrible lie, and is preventing Israel from living in peace. the Jews did not come to throw peaceful shepherds out of their picturesque villages. the Jews came home to their ancient land after having tried for 2000 years to put down roots in other places. since no such place existed anywhere, the revival of the Jewish state was the result. a blessed event which the world should applaud. instead, now there is a movement afoot to deny the Jews their independence. so-called historical Palestine includes Syria and Jordan, yet the Arabs of Gaza and Judea and Samaria do not claim that for themselves. it should make one think!! so think!

www.palestinefacts.org...

Nice to see someone show facts.

Let's see, israel has always recognized the right of a Palestinian state to exist. On the other hand, the palestinians and the arabs have not recognized the right of israel to exist. Israel tried to give the palestinians more land in 2000 for peace (just like they did with egypt in the late 80's). But instead of accepting the offer, the palestinians sent suicide bombers to attack israel.

Never forget the Hamas motto: "We love death as much as Israel loves life"

originally posted by: Dfairlite
Let's see, israel has always recognized the right of a Palestinian state to exist. On the other hand, the palestinians and the arabs have not recognized the right of israel to exist. Israel tried to give the palestinians more land in 2000 for peace (just like they did with egypt in the late 80's). But instead of accepting the offer, the palestinians sent suicide bombers to attack israel.

Oh boy. Where to begin.

First, the Israel-Egypt peace treaty was signed in 1979 and went into effect in 1980. While I guess that is technically "the eighties" a little more precision would do you well.

Second, Israel did not "give Egypt land." Israel removed its occupation of Egypt's Sinai peninsula. These are very different things.

Third, there is no right to be recognized. There are UN member states that do not recognize each other; the Koreas refuse to recognize each other (Japan also does not recognize North Korea). Pakistan does not recognize Armenia. China does not maintain diplomatic relations with any nation that has granted formal recognition to Taiwan (Such as Swaziland, the Holy See, and Haiti.)

Fourth, as with Egypt, Israel did not "offer land" to the Palestinians. In fact it was quite the opposite. The Camp David talks revolved around Israel's "need" to annex all the occupied territory it wanted while dismissing Palestine's right to that same territory. The "land swap" garbage is just that - garbage. it's Israel trying to trade Palestinian territory to the Palestinians in exchange for Palestinian territory that israel wants. The equivalent of stealing your wallet so I can guy you dinner at a restaurant you hate then going "you gonna eat that?" Arafat did indeed walk away in 2000, because despite efforts to paint him so, Arafat was not a stupid man and he was presented an obnoxiously stupid deal that in no way followed what had been discussed at Oslo. Were you in his place you would have walked out as well.

And fifth, while the PLO - the recognized representative of Palestine in the international community - has indeed extended recognition to the state of israel (contrary to your claim), this has never been reciprocated. In fact israel has made a multitude of efforts to strangle a Palestinian state in the crib, from its demands to annex occupied territory (most recent demands on this, annexation of the entire Jordan valley), but also its plays on the international stage to stymie diplomatic recognition from other states.

a reply to: amazing

....and North Koreans......everyone forgets about the damn North Koreans!!!

originally posted by: TheTengriist

originally posted by: Dfairlite
Let's see, israel has always recognized the right of a Palestinian state to exist. On the other hand, the palestinians and the arabs have not recognized the right of israel to exist. Israel tried to give the palestinians more land in 2000 for peace (just like they did with egypt in the late 80's). But instead of accepting the offer, the palestinians sent suicide bombers to attack israel.

Oh boy. Where to begin.

First, the Israel-Egypt peace treaty was signed in 1979 and went into effect in 1980. While I guess that is technically "the eighties" a little more precision would do you well.

Second, Israel did not "give Egypt land." Israel removed its occupation of Egypt's Sinai peninsula. These are very different things.

Third, there is no right to be recognized. There are UN member states that do not recognize each other; the Koreas refuse to recognize each other (Japan also does not recognize North Korea). Pakistan does not recognize Armenia. China does not maintain diplomatic relations with any nation that has granted formal recognition to Taiwan (Such as Swaziland, the Holy See, and Haiti.)

Fourth, as with Egypt, Israel did not "offer land" to the Palestinians. In fact it was quite the opposite. The Camp David talks revolved around Israel's "need" to annex all the occupied territory it wanted while dismissing Palestine's right to that same territory. The "land swap" garbage is just that - garbage. it's Israel trying to trade Palestinian territory to the Palestinians in exchange for Palestinian territory that israel wants. The equivalent of stealing your wallet so I can guy you dinner at a restaurant you hate then going "you gonna eat that?" Arafat did indeed walk away in 2000, because despite efforts to paint him so, Arafat was not a stupid man and he was presented an obnoxiously stupid deal that in no way followed what had been discussed at Oslo. Were you in his place you would have walked out as well.

And fifth, while the PLO - the recognized representative of Palestine in the international community - has indeed extended recognition to the state of israel (contrary to your claim), this has never been reciprocated. In fact israel has made a multitude of efforts to strangle a Palestinian state in the crib, from its demands to annex occupied territory (most recent demands on this, annexation of the entire Jordan valley), but also its plays on the international stage to stymie diplomatic recognition from other states.

The first was a typo, it was meant to say late 1970's, my error.

How did israel come to control the sinai peninsula? Oh that's right, the six day war, where all of the surrounding countries readied to (and) attack(ed) israel. So israel took that over to prevent another incident and gave it back as soon as egypt was willing to sign a peace agreement. I'm OK with taking land and using it to barter peace.

Third, I didn't say there was a right to be recognized, rather a recognized right to exist.

Fourth, The many deals that israel has offered have been great for palestinians. And I notice you left out the fact that Arafat the wise responded not by just walking away but sending suicide bombers into israel.

Fifth, Israel recognized the right of a palestinian state to exist in 1948 and it's attempts to barter for peace suggest they do accept this. Meanwhile the famous three No's of khartoum say that the arabs and palestinians will not ever recognize israel.

Maybe try one more time.