Please Explain Israel vs Palestine

the views of Abu Mazen. In Gaza, the propaganda is truly hideous. Everything that is said about Jews in the Quran is treated as basic fact of life. A type of scientific credibility. It can't be doubted.

Simply google "palestinian schoolbooks' and see with your own eyes how dishonest and perverse their leaders are. Exposing their children to this trash. Which they probably believe themselves. (and if not, wow! I'm not even sure I could tolerate such cognitive dissonance).

And this post I guess brings me back full circle. Context. Where do you begin? Do you begin at the fact that Israels prime enemy - and our own ideological enemy - Hamas, is trying desperately to destroy them? Or do you go further. To before the present, to the very beginning of the Zionist excursion. If you're disagreement begins from there, even then, I would count you as pretty dumb for not paying very much attention to the more focal problem - the sheer incompatability of Islam, and Hamas, with your own western values.

If knowing the above doesn't cause a "shift" in your awareness, than I wonder if there is some memetic curse against the Jews, that every time a wave of anti-Jewish propaganda emerges, whether cloaked as Anti-Judaism, or Anti-Jews, or Anti-Israel, it just takes hold in and between peoples minds. It becomes such an attractive idea to them - and for the life of me, I wish I could implant my felt sense of sound sensibility in this matter in their minds, but I can't.

Knowing that Hamas is a bad guy - in a very basic sense, and if you subscribe to moral relativism, I feel sad for you - should really force a change in perspective - at least in Israel's relationship with Hamas/Gaza. You may still favor - justifiably - a two state solution, but you should recognize that Hamas is an entirely unacceptable presence in this dialectic.

a reply to: Astrocyte

Very well said!
Unfortunately I doubt you will change anyone's mind here...

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: CommandoJoe

Suicide bombings isn't common there and hasn't really been noted in what.. like 10 years?

And the only reason for that is because Israel closed the borders with Gaza & the West Bank... It doesn't change the fact that Hamas has done it, and would continue if it could.

And I see you ignored their attack on the children's school bus that I just mentioned which happened a couple of years ago. Using a precise laser guided anti-tank weapon no less - they can't claim unguided, home made rocket on that one... Is that not terrorism?

Any act of "terrorism" by Hamas is seen and raised by Israel. Terrorism is just a buzz word really though. It's asymmetrical warfare. They use what they have.

I have no problem with asymmetric warfare or using what they have, if it is against military/gov targets... When they launch missiles at all the major cities of Israel, they are intentionally targeting civilians - that's when they earn the title of terrorist (again - since it was well deserved from suicide bombing as noted above). When civilians are killed does Hamas, say,"Ooops, sorry, we were aiming for the military base."? Nope, they love and celebrate any deaths they cause in Israel .

I can list all the terrorist acts by Israel like flachette shells, white phosphorous, intentionally bombing civilian homes and using bombs as a warning (ignorant but heinous plan), bombing children, bombing a hospital, keeping the people oppressed and beating them. Trapping them in a small space and bombing them indescriminately.

I mean i could bring up the number of Hamas killing Israeli soldiers v.s. Israeli civilians, and Israel killing Palestinian militants v.s. civilians. The actions and numbers speak for themselves.

There is no indiscriminate bombing of Gaza - if this was happening there would be many thousands or 10's of thousands dead instead of hundreds. If Israel wanted to intentionally target civilians, why send them SMS messages, phone calls, and drop leaflets telling them to leave the area? Why would they set up a field hospital for the wounded Palestinians? Which Hamas tries to stop their civilians from getting to BTW... Why would they evacuate seriously wounded Palestinians into Israel for medical treatment? Do you think Hamas would do any of this?

It blows my mind that anyone can think Hamas is not a terrorist organization... (But then again, there are a bunch of people that think Obama is the best president ever) This isn't to say Israel is perfect, but in the hypothetical absence of the current conflict and everything else was equal, if given the choice to live under Hamas rule or Israeli rule, without a second thought I would pick Israel every time. And if every one here is honest with themselves I bet they would choose the same.

originally posted by: Astrocyte
the views of Abu Mazen. In Gaza, the propaganda is truly hideous. Everything that is said about Jews in the Quran is treated as basic fact of life. A type of scientific credibility. It can't be doubted.

Simply google "palestinian schoolbooks' and see with your own eyes how dishonest and perverse their leaders are. Exposing their children to this trash. Which they probably believe themselves. (and if not, wow! I'm not even sure I could tolerate such cognitive dissonance).

And this post I guess brings me back full circle. Context. Where do you begin? Do you begin at the fact that Israels prime enemy - and our own ideological enemy - Hamas, is trying desperately to destroy them? Or do you go further. To before the present, to the very beginning of the Zionist excursion. If you're disagreement begins from there, even then, I would count you as pretty dumb for not paying very much attention to the more focal problem - the sheer incompatability of Islam, and Hamas, with your own western values.

If knowing the above doesn't cause a "shift" in your awareness, than I wonder if there is some memetic curse against the Jews, that every time a wave of anti-Jewish propaganda emerges, whether cloaked as Anti-Judaism, or Anti-Jews, or Anti-Israel, it just takes hold in and between peoples minds. It becomes such an attractive idea to them - and for the life of me, I wish I could implant my felt sense of sound sensibility in this matter in their minds, but I can't.

Knowing that Hamas is a bad guy - in a very basic sense, and if you subscribe to moral relativism, I feel sad for you - should really force a change in perspective - at least in Israel's relationship with Hamas/Gaza. You may still favor - justifiably - a two state solution, but you should recognize that Hamas is an entirely unacceptable presence in this dialectic.

Bravo. This is the best post I've read on the subject.

originally posted by: CommandoJoe

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: CommandoJoe

Suicide bombings isn't common there and hasn't really been noted in what.. like 10 years?

And the only reason for that is because Israel closed the borders with Gaza & the West Bank... It doesn't change the fact that Hamas has done it, and would continue if it could.

And I see you ignored their attack on the children's school bus that I just mentioned which happened a couple of years ago. Using a precise laser guided anti-tank weapon no less - they can't claim unguided, home made rocket on that one... Is that not terrorism?

Any act of "terrorism" by Hamas is seen and raised by Israel. Terrorism is just a buzz word really though. It's asymmetrical warfare. They use what they have.

I have no problem with asymmetric warfare or using what they have, if it is against military/gov targets... When they launch missiles at all the major cities of Israel, they are intentionally targeting civilians - that's when they earn the title of terrorist (again - since it was well deserved from suicide bombing as noted above). When civilians are killed does Hamas, say,"Ooops, sorry, we were aiming for the military base."? Nope, they love and celebrate any deaths they cause in Israel .

I can list all the terrorist acts by Israel like flachette shells, white phosphorous, intentionally bombing civilian homes and using bombs as a warning (ignorant but heinous plan), bombing children, bombing a hospital, keeping the people oppressed and beating them. Trapping them in a small space and bombing them indescriminately.

I mean i could bring up the number of Hamas killing Israeli soldiers v.s. Israeli civilians, and Israel killing Palestinian militants v.s. civilians. The actions and numbers speak for themselves.

There is no indiscriminate bombing of Gaza - if this was happening there would be many thousands or 10's of thousands dead instead of hundreds. If Israel wanted to intentionally target civilians, why send them SMS messages, phone calls, and drop leaflets telling them to leave the area? Why would they set up a field hospital for the wounded Palestinians? Which Hamas tries to stop their civilians from getting to BTW... Why would they evacuate seriously wounded Palestinians into Israel for medical treatment? Do you think Hamas would do any of this?

It blows my mind that anyone can think Hamas is not a terrorist organization... (But then again, there are a bunch of people that think Obama is the best president ever) This isn't to say Israel is perfect, but in the hypothetical absence of the current conflict and everything else was equal, if given the choice to live under Hamas rule or Israeli rule, without a second thought I would pick Israel every time. And if every one here is honest with themselves I bet they would choose the same.

Well said.

In the eyes of Hamas, their own civilians are nothing but pawns.