Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

a reply to: dragonridr

First the launch was detected in fact plotted the missile path.

Show me the evidence please?

As for evidence well investigators already said it was a sam just from a preliminary investigation.

Is it evidence now when investigator say it was a SAM?
Where are the evidence that can prove that what they say is a fact?

The only question now is which one they may be able to tell us soon.

They have all this evidence but.....have to wait? Yeah they have to find the evidence first.

Nothing of what you further state is evidence that a SAM/BUK system was used. There are no evidence that can directly prove that a SAM/BUK system brought Down MH17.

I know you dont have any solid evidence, because no one else does.

Has anyone left some flowers at the scene ?
It wont help the victims but may ease the pain of the relatives a little and prove a little bit of Humanity still exist in this World.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Has anyone left some flowers at the scene ?
It wont help the victims but may ease the pain of the relatives a little and prove a little bit of Humanity still exist in this World.

It was a field, it probably had flowers already.

I think the Ukranian army sent a few mortar shells.

The rebels identified and rescued the bodies.

I think identifying and rescuing the bodies is humanity, and also stopping of fighting during this is humanity. Just wish somebody sent Ukraine army the memo.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: jedi_hamster
so far, 99% of this thread is rumour mixed with throwing blame without evidence and constant attacks at everyone suggesting that kiev is responsible.

Within the first few hours Russia already assigned blame to Ukraine. So much so in fact that Russia state media got caught editing the Russian Wikipedia file on the shoot down of MH17, editing it to state Ukraine shot it down. And with no evidence to support the claim.

Your thoughts on that or is it a double standard?

originally posted by: jedi_hamster
you really want the WW3 that bad?
seriously?

Seriously, you guys keep coming back with this idiotic assertion people want war with Russia and yet you have absolutely nothing to support that position.

So, its ok for you to blame the west and accuse them of wanting war with nothing to back it up.. Dont look now but you just did what you chastised people in this thread of doing.

You do realize if a nuclear war occurred that NO ONE would win it? Contrary to comments from some of the Russian supporters, radioactive fallout does cross international boundaries.

originally posted by: jedi_hamster
you'll get it, and the more you'll believe in the lies of your governments and the media, the sooner it will happen.
and you will cry over your own foolishness then, but it'll be too late.

Good observation... Now, lets spruce it up a bit to make it more realistic and accurate.

"вы получите его, и чем больше вы будете верить в ложь ваших правительств и средств массовой информации, тем быстрее это произойдет.
и вы будете плакать над собственной глупостью то, но это будет слишком поздно

vy poluchite yego, i chem bol'she vy budete verit' v lozh' vashikh pravitel'stv i sredstv massovoy informatsii, tem bystreye eto proizoydet.
i vy budete plakat' nad sobstvennoy glupost'yu to, no eto budet slishkom pozdno".


So based on observations to date.. The Russian supporters think Russia is invincible and that the west wants war with Russia.

Feel free to put that nugget under your pillow and wait for the tooth fairy.

The rebels have BUK's in their possession.
The incident occurred in rebel controlled territory.
The rebels posted their exploits on social media.
The rebels refused people access to the site.
The rebels allowed looting to ocur at the site.
The rebels removed evidence from the site.
The rebels destroyed evidence at the site.
The rebels continued to refuse access to the site by professionals for 4 days.

Just like Crimea, Russia is giving a theory on what happened on a daily basis that keeps changing. Next im sure Putin will tell us the men in uniforms with no insignias that operated the missile launchers weren't Russia.

So we have now reached a point where all Putin has left to threaten people with is war. That happens when you try to play the 1980s is back in style game. The problem is it will not work. Russia would no more survive a nuclear war than any other country would.

So how about we put the nuclear bomb fairy tale to rest and focus on the task at hand?

this was the point of my post:
humanrightsinvestigations.org...

now reply to that, because by putting a blame on someone based on lies you are supporting those that want the war.
nice try at twisting the logic. epic fail though.

and as for russians blaming kiev folks within hours, how fast it was for kiev folks to blame rebels and russia? oh, right. they traveled back in time to upload their 'proof' on youtube.

where is the proof usa claims to have?
where is the inventory of ukraine's missiles?

who does spin minute details out of proportion to hide an elephant in the room, like you just did?

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: jedi_hamster

I suggest you look at the picture and the video different models of the Buk launcher this was discussed. As for world War 3 never happen Russia knows it cant win against NATO. So Putin wont let it happen. Dont think Putin wasnt warned of the consequences of moving troops into Eastern Ukraine. Those kind of threats are handled through back channels. Putins gambit only works with plausible deniability because than even the west can just point fingers. Problem is it appears that train left the station and he cant claim there isnt Russian involvement now. Which is whe the EU is looking into tougher sanctions and now are planning to attack energy sector with the dutch leading the call.

And sadly from this point unless Putin becomes part of the solution things are going to get very bad for the Russian people.

this was discussed where exactly?

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: ghostpigeon
a reply to: Xcathdra

I was not ignoring that article. It simply provides no tangible proof of anything, since Ukraine has its own buk systems.

So do the rebels.

satellite photos or it didn't happen. usa are said to have had their satellite directly over ukraine at the time of this crash. where is their evidence then?

and anything kiev folks say isn't worth much. they've prepared the video being a 'proof' that they've intercepted calls, at least one day before the crash. one of their own officials (prosecutor general - i may be wrong about the title though) said that rebels do NOT have any of ukraine's buks. and finally - it seems they could well fake the evidence rebels had anything to do with ANY buks at all.

so, lets see the difference here.

kiev folks have buk systems. that is a FACT.
rebels are said to have buk systems. that is a rumour.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Malaysia Flight MH17 May Have Been Escorted By Ukrainian Su-27 Fighter Jets

The article discusses the possibility of MH17 being escorted by 2 SU-27's.

Here is my issue with that position.

The Russians already identified the airplane as an SU-25..

Is it possible the type of aircraft changed because of the limitations on an SU-25?

We had some questions a bunch of pages back about the ability of sams being able to identify aircraft by transponder codes. Apparently they can -

Indeed, the operators inside the Buk could “read” the Boeing 777′s altitude and transponder and could easily identify the civilian plane en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur flying at FL300 inside the eastern Ukraine’s airspace.

are you suggesting by 'changed' that russians changed their version?
well, according to your own sources, russians said it was su-25, while iranian expert claims it was su-27. never enough of twisting the facts, eh?

also, we would need a pilot to confirm if su-25 could have possibly shoot down a jetliner flying around 3km higher. my guess is that possibly yes. wasn't that boeing's flight path lowered by 600m? quite a coincidence.

a reply to: jedi_hamster

Don't know where you get this information from about 600 mtr lower, it has been flying at FL310 and climbed to FL330 which it maintained untill it was shot down.

originally posted by: bartoq

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Has anyone left some flowers at the scene ?
It wont help the victims but may ease the pain of the relatives a little and prove a little bit of Humanity still exist in this World.

It was a field, it probably had flowers already.

I think the Ukranian army sent a few mortar shells.

The rebels identified and rescued the bodies.

I think identifying and rescuing the bodies is humanity, and also stopping of fighting during this is humanity. Just wish somebody sent Ukraine army the memo.

It was a field, it probably had flowers already

Probably?? Might have been Potatoes..

I think the Ukranian army sent a few mortar shells

I think maybe you are thinking too much.

The rebels identified and rescued the bodies.

I believe you mean "Recovered" the bodies..?
Also, How could they identify nearly 300 burned, disfigured and bloated decomposing bodies, in just a few days where they lay.? they will need DNA, Dental records etc unless everyone had their passport tucked in a pocket. and as far as i know they lay on the ground with the locals poking them with sticks and rummaging through pockets until they were placed in body bags.
Cheers. S

A link about the possible launch location.
Launch location detected of missile that brought down MH17

a reply to: jedi_hamster

The shooting down of MH17 clearly is a setup planned by evil Ukrainian government. The Ukrainians operate Buk missiles and they know positives and negatives of this system. A setup where a military plane of Ukrainian AF was in close proximity to MH17 was used.

Ukrainians have knowingly used a Malaysian flight for this setup. Why Malaysian - this is a question which only CIA can answer.

There is no doubt that missile was fired but not at MH17. MH17 was shot down by an error or limitation of the SAM system.

I have repeatedly said that there is a war in progress in Ukraine. It makes no sense for any civilian authority to fly planes in the area of conflict. It is criminal that civilian authorities are not performing their jobs.

Mass media should question Ukrainian government why this plane was routed directly over an area where rebels had known SAM positions.

originally posted by: GargIndia


Mass media should question Ukrainian government why this plane was routed directly over an area where rebels had known SAM positions.

Yes and to a area where Ukraine had 9 active BUK systems. Where two of them were situated Within a pro-russian controlled area.

Why would Ukraine have 9 active BUK there when the pro-russiand dont have anything to fly With?

a reply to: spy66

As I explained in another thread Kiev had reason to believe that Russia was penetrating their airspace and had potentially downed at least one of their aircraft. That seems to me like good enough reason to have BUKs deployed. It also needs to be pointed out again that none of these BUKs were in range of the crash site. Russia readily admits that while they have images of these 9 BUKs active at the times none of them fired.

The Associated Press ‏@AP 2m
BREAKING: Dutch military plane carrying bodies from Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 crash lands in Eindhoven.

The plot thickens....

I can't believe this.

I hope AP's twitter feed got hacked or something.

NVM...

Should have been a comma between crash & lands (crash, lands)

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: spy66

As I explained in another thread Kiev had reason to believe that Russia was penetrating their airspace and had potentially downed at least one of their aircraft. That seems to me like good enough reason to have BUKs deployed. It also needs to be pointed out again that none of these BUKs were in range of the crash site. Russia readily admits that while they have images of these 9 BUKs active at the times none of them fired.

But just after the Downing of Mh17 Ukraine only had 2 or 3 BUK active. Was there no need of being on the alert for russian air Crafts after that?

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: spy66

As I explained in another thread Kiev had reason to believe that Russia was penetrating their airspace and had potentially downed at least one of their aircraft. That seems to me like good enough reason to have BUKs deployed. It also needs to be pointed out again that none of these BUKs were in range of the crash site. Russia readily admits that while they have images of these 9 BUKs active at the times none of them fired.

But just after the Downing of Mh17 Ukraine only had 2 or 3 BUK active. Was there no need of being on the alert for russian air Crafts after that?

So seems to me your game plan is to ignore evidence well screaming for evidence. Odd that you seem to think this would work on the average person. I guess thats why everyone outside of Russia can figure out whats going on while Russians on the other hand appear to believe everything Russian media says. Now about your demand the US government just released all kinds of proof your screaming about to the press.

The Obama administration, detailing what it called evidence of Russian complicity in the downing of a Malaysian airliner, on Tuesday released satellite images and other sensitive intelligence that officials say show Moscow had trained and equipped rebels in Ukraine responsible for the attack.

Senior U.S. intelligence officials cited sensors that traced the path of the missile, shrapnel markings on the downed aircraft, voiceprint analysis of separatists claiming credit for the strike, and a flood of photos and other data from social-media sites.

The officials also for the first time identified a sprawling Russian military installation near the city of Rostov as the main conduit of Russian support to separatists in Ukraine, describing it as a hub of training and weapons that has expanded dramatically over the past month. The officials said that tanks, rocket launchers and other arms have continued to flow into Ukraine even after the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, which killed 298 civilians.


Read more at: english.astroawani.com...

a reply to: Xcathdra

Is it possible the type of aircraft changed because of the limitations on an SU-25?

Ukraine airforce upgraded to SU-25m1 which are capable of 33.000ft.

This has been pointed out several times.

originally posted by: ScrutonEyez
a reply to: Xcathdra

Is it possible the type of aircraft changed because of the limitations on an SU-25?

Ukraine airforce upgraded to SU-25m1 which are capable of 33.000ft.

This has been pointed out several times.

Last count they had 3 of those and they woudnt risk those in SAM ALLEY. And they specified a SU-25 not a SU-25 m1.

a reply to: Zaphod58

It seems someone in Russia DID say it.

Yes, someone.

And four pages of discussion

In another thread. You both came up with different threads, yet you posted your original comment in this thread, and the discussion was about this thread.

But let's forget about it.

a reply to: dragonridr

I think you just have to stick to Your Version. And i will stick to mine.

What is Evidence to you are not good enough evidence for me.

a reply to: yuppa

Last count they had 3 of those and they woudnt risk those in SAM ALLEY.

If you say so it must be true then. The do risk airliners in Sam ALLEY though.

And they specified a SU-25 not a SU-25 m1.

Well, it's still a SU-25. I don't know if they can even make a distinction on radar between the two.

And if I'm correct the SU-25 can actually hit 33.000 ft.