Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

There are tanks and fighter aircraft involved in Ukraine civil war. Last time I heard, such amount of military activity is called a 'war' and not 'anti terrorist operation'.

This is what it is. There is a war being fought in Ukraine.

War is ugly business. This event is a warning to all of what is to come. Accusations can fly but cooperation is needed to bury the dead. There is no cooperation, only ill feeling right now. USA desire to trample Russia means the dead cannot be buried with dignity.

a reply to: bigyin

I think that if the Russians, or rather the seperatists shot down the plane, they didn't do it on purpose, there would be no political or strategical benefit from it.

On the other hand for the Ukranians and those who back them up there is a clear benefit.

I'm still trying to find out what or who actually made them end up over that area. Anyone?

a reply to: milomilo

That's my guess too.

I do not see what possible advantage Russia or the rebels could have gained from shooting down a passenger airliner? It would be nuts to do that.

Heavy irony, or perhaps numerology showing, that it happened on the 18th anniversary of TWA 800.

Really weird if the reports of decomposing bodies are true.

a reply to: fatdeeman

The United Nations cannot violate territorial integrity of a nation in the manner suggested / implied.

The UN does not have an army. The UN charter stipulates that member nations can allow UN missions to use a nations military. Those nations can also refuse the request.

originally posted by: fatdeeman
It just seems inherently wrong that people's dead relatives are being poked with sticks by rebel soldiers...

What's next?

Are you going to claim they've been urinating on them too?

a reply to: AstralTrespass

Their flight plan. The airspace wasn't closed and many flights used it, right up until the plane was shot down.

originally posted by: bigyin
a reply to: JakiusFogg

I can't see the point of Russia bringing this plane down. Like they don't have enough to deal with already.

If the 777 was shot down by a military jet, then why not an American jet, or even an Israeli one seeing as the whole episode provided a timely smokescreen for their actions on the ground.

The problem here is that the western governments, forces, media can tell anything they like .... we have no way of verifying anything.

The west wants to attack Russia so we are told Russia did it .... simples

Congratulations!

You've cracked the code.

a reply to: GargIndia

That would be because the airspace over Ukraine was not closed. Commercial flights were required to be above 32k feet.

This MH 17 flight was not the only one who flew that route. Its a standard commercial flight corridor.

The missiles the rebels had were shoulder launched limited in height. Those shoulder launched cannot reach the 32k foot level. The BUK system can (up to 72k feet).

The claim is rebels dont have BUK's.
ITAR TASS says otherwise.

a reply to: Zaphod58

But didn't they fly exactly over the dangerous area where 10 previous flights hadn't?

With all the Cameras nowadays, no-one caught the Missile taking off.??

originally posted by: bigyin
a reply to: JakiusFogg

I can't see the point of Russia bringing this plane down. Like they don't have enough to deal with already.

If the 777 was shot down by a military jet, then why not an American jet, or even an Israeli one seeing as the whole episode provided a timely smokescreen for their actions on the ground.

The problem here is that the western governments, forces, media can tell anything they like .... we have no way of verifying anything.

The west wants to attack Russia so we are told Russia did it .... simples

Sinking of the Lusitania 2.0

When she left New York for Liverpool on what would be her final voyage on 1 May 1915, submarine warfare was intensifying in the Atlantic. Germany had declared the seas around the United Kingdom to be a war-zone, and the German embassy in the United States had placed a newspaper advertisement warning people not to sail on Lusitania. On the afternoon of 7 May, Lusitania was torpedoed by a German U-Boat, 11 mi (18 km) off the southern coast of Ireland and inside the declared "zone of war". A second internal explosion sent her to the bottom in 18 minutes.

In firing on a non-military ship without warning, the Germans had breached the international laws known as the Cruiser Rules. Although the Germans had reasons for treating Lusitania as a naval vessel, including that the ship was carrying war munitions and that the British had also been breaching the Cruiser Rules, the sinking caused a storm of protest in the United States, as 128 Americans were among the dead. It also influenced the decision by the US to declare war in 1917.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
With all the Cameras nowadays, no-one caught the Missile taking off.??

Nope - they did however catch the rebels talking about the shootdown of the civilian aircraft though.

Oh, they did get a picture of the plane hitting the ground.

Coming across twitter now -

Don Maramee ‏@DonMaramee 13m

Gunfire near MH17 crash site: CNN’s Chris Cuomo says there is heavy fighting going on near the crash site of M... http://(link tracking not allowed)/1jJxQWW

a reply to: AstralTrespass

They were south of their filed flight plan, probably due to weather. Flight plans change on a daily basis due to winds aloft, weather aloft, etc. If you were to look at every flight plan they filed, they would all be slightly different form the previous, because of conditions.

Regardless though the airspace was open, above 31,000 feet, which is where they were. It was a stupid decision to take that route, but there was nothing saying they couldn't do it.

- 2 weeks prior, pro-russian rebels obtain SAM-missile systems. (BUK ground to air)
- BUK-missile system were then used by someone to shoot down ukranian cargo planes.
- The plane is shot down over rebel controlled area.
- The ground zero is then occupied by pro-russian rebels.
- Rebels initially limited OSSE-team research of the crash site difficult and or impossible.
- Western journalists entering crash site are attacked by rebel soldiers (Norwegian photographer
punched in the stomach when he took a picture) and threathened (same journalists had a machine
gun pointed at them saying "I will let my machine gun do the talking if you don't listen to me.")
- Rebel soldiers carry off corpses and loot them (witness descriptions)

Undetermined:
- The ukranian intelligence services phone-tap between rebels and possibly russian intelligence.
- The SAM-missile system utilized for the shotdown is transported back to Russia.

So it's pointing towards a major #-up by rebel amateurs getting new toys from big brother Russia, that they weren't competent to use. The result was they shot down the passenger plane thinking it was an ukranian military plane.

Of course it is not in the interest of the rebels OR the russian government to be involved in a shootdown of a civilian passenger plane. The interest lays in Ukrania. You could speculate that there might have been ukranian or other-country involvement in having the airplane fly over this particular area and persuade the rebels to shoot it down, having them think it's a military plane. Or it could just be Malaysia AIrlines being cheap and chasing profit by not running the airliner through longer distance-less competitive flight paths. (More fuel=higher prices)

There could be ukranian aviation activity in the vicinity of the airplane as it was entering this territory, i.e. fighter jets capable of detecting and evading incoming missiles while leaving the slower civilian plane to carry the cost of detection as rebels act upon a fallacy of equivalence (civilian plane w/ military planes = military plane)

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
With all the Cameras nowadays, no-one caught the Missile taking off.??

I also wonder why there seems to be only one piece of footage of the actual crash site, showing a total of 5 bodies filmed by one source.

a reply to: AstralTrespass

I've seen a LOT more than 5 bodies, and one video of the site.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: GargIndia

The claim is rebels dont have BUK's.
ITAR TASS says otherwise.

Whether "the rebels" had the capability or not is NOT the issue.

If they didn't have the capability, this false flag plan COULD NOT work.

America NEEDS a war.

a reply to: doxograph

There could be ukranian aviation activity in the vicinity of the airplane as it was entering this territory, i.e. fighter jets capable of detecting and evading incoming missiles while leaving the slower civilian plane to carry the cost of detection as rebels act upon a fallacy of equivalence (civilian plane w/ military planes = military plane)

I agree, this scenario is one of the contenders.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
With all the Cameras nowadays, no-one caught the Missile taking off.??

According to the MSM on Thursday evening news, they had been told by the Pentagon that satellite sensors had recorded the launch, and knew only that they were Russian made missiles.

I'm skeptical of Pentagon statements.