All arguing aside, this is israel.

originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: FlySolo and BuzzyWigs

Dear FlySolo and BuzzyWigs,

I think we can can have a useful discussion. I despair of it with some people, but it seems you both have a desire for peace and some thinking skills, I just hope I'm not too outclassed.

Let's assume that this can be solved. That's a huge assumption. I was at a dinner party tonight. The consensus seemed to be that Israel can't shoot at Hamas because that will kill innocent civilians, and that Hamas will keep shooting, because that's what they've always done.

if they're right, then I see two choices. Israel can die a slow death by being slowly shot to death, attacks on airports, roads, population centers, etc. Or Israel will just say "Obscenity! If we're going to go, let's at least have a decent war and clean them out first. I don't like either of those choices.

Let's try to find something. Here's one idea, bad, but it may get your thoughts started. Israel goes to Hamas and says, "OK, here's the deal. We stop shelling or performing any military actions in your areas. We also lift all blockades, we just have the standard customs inspections every country has. We'll even put in neutral nation custom officials. Have your own policemen and patrols. We'll make sure you have the same water that everybody in this desert land has. We'll make sure you have full electricity.

"We'll also stop building more settlements. Sounds good? Great! We're happy. Now if you ever build a tunnel into our country with out our permission, launch attacks from your country, or allow another country or group to attack from your country, you will not have to worry about any consequences. The reason for that is that you will be dead. Everyone in the Palestinian territories will be killed. We may accept individual surrenders or we may not. The only places in which a stone will be left on a stone will be where we want there to be.

"We are going to broadcast this to the people of the world, and make sure your citizens know all about the deal. Your people now have a real incentive to make sure their government is peaceful. Neither of us will ever attack the other ever again.

"If you reject this deal, the world will know you don't want peace, you want to fight. We'll pencil you in on our calendar."

I'm just going a little out of the box.

With respect,
Charles1952

sounds good to me! lol.

but the poor palestinians would all develop extreme cases of PTSD with all that waiting for the hammer to drop and it doesn't, after a year or two.

maybe they can tunnel just up to the border and put fake launchers in hospitals and schools? that could be a stress reliever!

not sure what's worse charles, getting bombed or waiting to get bombed.
sorta cruel for the israeli's to do that to them. the UN would be all over the israeli's about psychological warfare.

someone would snap.

Please note, readers: it is people who support the Israelis in this war who claim most and most loudly that "Muslims want to kill all non-Muslims", which is a total lie. But it is repeated enough that people start to believe it, though its source is and always has been people trying to kill all the Muslims in Palestine. Similarly, "Jewish people control the world" is a lie repeated by people who wish to kill all the Jews in Israel.

a reply to: tsingtao

Dear tsingtao,

Nice post, I can accept it as humorous, serious, or a mix, and it comes out good every time. Unfortunately this craziness is starting to get to me. If you'd care to look, I just posted a rant.

Sometimes I wonder if the solution isn't just to rip the band-aid off and get it over with.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

One-sided?

Consider what the Arabs give up. A one sentence post card saying "Israel is a Jewish state, and they own the land they're on. Which of course is worth the post card it's written on.

It's worth a lot more than you give credit. On a scale of 1-10, how high is Palestine's denial that Israel is a state?
Exactly, that's what I thought.

First, after the next election, the post card is torn up. What's Israel going to do about it?

No, Israel doesn't do anything about it, the enforces of the agreement do like UN or NATO. The whole concept of earning land after milestones is to encourage peace. It doesn't matter what culture you come from, it's human nature to want to succeed when things are going well. You don't just earn 360 square km then do something stupid to lose it.

Second, the Palestinians have a terrible record of abiding by agreements. Why should Israel trust them?

Because the world is starting to get sick of the crap. International pressure should be applied to Israel to make it work.

In exchange for the post card, Israel gives away land, supports Palestinian statehood, opens the borders allowing peaceful and military goods to come in, and a couple of other things.

A couple of other things what?

And what happens if Hamas does anything? Will we let Israel invade Palestine? Will we send them a nasty note?

Clearly, no military action at all will be tolerated from Palestine. Zero tolerance. So there shouldn't even be a need for Hamas. If there ever is a terrorist attack, it would be a single cell not affiliated to the government. In which case, both states work together to find the attacker(s) and destroy them. I would think that should satisfy Israel's paranoia and scare off any would-be terrorists.

Forgetting any of the emotion involved, this seems to be a one sided, pro-Palestinian deal.

How bad does Israel want the Palestinians to stop lobbing rockets every day? You see, this is why they do it, because they have no other bargaining chips. All they can do is be a pestering noisy mosquito. How do you stop a mosquito without slapping it? Let it feed. What else does Israel gain? Acceptance by the Arabs that Israel is it's own state. Isn't that what you want?

a reply to: FlySolo

Dear FlySolo,

Thanks for your thorough response. I must be getting cynical because even after reading your thoughtful post, the deal still seems one-sided. Maybe there is something to be salvaged from this however.

For Israel, I don't think Palestine saying that Israel is a state means anything at all. The world, outside of some number of Islamic countries, realizes that Israel is a state, the UN thinks Israel is a state. What, really, does Israel get from Palestinian recognition?

As far as admitting that Israel owns the land they're on, what's new? It's the same as recognition. What actual benefit does Israel receive? I don't see any. Does that make them richer, safer, better in the world's eyes? I don't think so.

So on Israel's side, they get nothing of value, and if Hamas breaks the deal, Israel can do nothing about it. They have to go to the UN where any action would be vetoed by China, Russia, or both.

The whole concept of earning land after milestones is to encourage peace.

Israel gave away the Sinai Peninsula, and pulled every single Jew out of Gaza. Surprisingly, that didn't get them peace.

It doesn't matter what culture you come from, it's human nature to want to succeed when things are going well. You don't just earn 360 square km then do something stupid to lose it.

Lose it??? And who is going to take it away, the UN? Remember the vetoes.

Because the world is starting to get sick of the crap. International pressure should be applied to Israel to make it work.

Applied to Israel? Did you forget applying at least some kind of pressure to hamas and the Palestinians?

A couple of other things what? Start with right of return, which by itself destroys Israel.

Clearly, no military action at all will be tolerated from Palestine. Zero tolerance.

Fine, I like zero tolerance for violence. Who hands out the penalties when it occurs? The UN again? Hamas launches a major attack, and the UN says we have zero tolerance for that. Action gets vetoed.

So there shouldn't even be a need for Hamas. If there ever is a terrorist attack, it would be a single cell not affiliated to the government. In which case, both states work together to find the attacker(s) and destroy them. I would think that should satisfy Israel's paranoia and scare off any would-be terrorists.

It doesn't even satisfy my common sense. Hamas will say, "OK, guys, we're done. Let's go back to our goats. Turn in your rockets and all that military stuff to the government (Which by the way, isHamas."

An attack comes against Israel from Palestine, and Israel is supposed to talk about it then decide what to do about it? I can see it. The Israeli representative comes into the Gaza government building and says "We think these dozen guys just shot up our border settlement." The Gaza representative says, "OK, dawn tomorrow we'll go round them up." The next day, the Israelis are informed "We must have a security leak, somehow those guys discovered our plans and left the country. Be sure to call on us again the next time this happens."

All they can do is be a pestering noisy mosquito. How do you stop a mosquito without slapping it? Let it feed.

even with Iron Dome, and stuffing half their population in shelters, Israel has still lost people to the rockets. Let it feed?

What else does Israel gain? Acceptance by the Arabs that Israel is it's own state. Isn't that what you want?

NO. Ok, is that settled?

With respect,
Charles1952