Mental health care practitioners manipulate for Money - It's a SCAM

a reply to: JohnPhoenix

AA is free and has as good of a success rate as any of the high dollar re-hab programs. If you are serious about quitting then it will likely help to surround yourself with others with the same goal.

I would recommend checking out the closed meetings since the open meetings are full of people getting their court paperwork signed off and very few truly want to be sober. The closed meetings is where you will find others who are serious about staying sober.

a reply to: jrod

I'm not real thrilled with the "alcoholism = an incurable disease" construction on such realities. It has some helpful features . . . and some defeatest features to it.

However, it IS probably useful in the short term for a lot of folks in DENIAL to think that they will always be at risk of a relapse.

And, certainly, the safest way to avoid further DUI's, spousal abuse, bad models for children etc. . . . is to not drink again . . . any . . . ever.

Yes, the propaganda that THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG a la the oligarchy's brainwashing for more than 100 years . . . HAS contributed to folks taking NO responsibility for their choices and actions--to the increasing destruction of the family and of society.

Actually, that was a startling case . . . however, it was far from AS EXTREME as you seem to think it was. Many regions of the country were absolutely stupid, counter-productive, idiotic etc. when it came to handling DUI's . . . resulting in many such cases . . . maybe not QUITE as bad, on average . . . though with far too many in that ball park.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
a reply to: JohnPhoenix
You binge drink to the point of blackout and violence during the black out. Violence against a 'best friend'. Then you say you don't want the cops to beat you. Any mental health professional is going to take a long hard look at you. Sorry, but there is a problem there. Since you posted online that means you invite comment. My comment ... you need time in an alcohol dependency clinic. I wish you well. Good luck.

I AGREE. Preferably for at least 90 days.

With LOTS of GROUP PROCESS work in the daily routine.

a reply to: hydeman11

SADLY,

YES, America has an epidemic drinking problem.

It used to be worse in the military when the military was TRAINING ALCOHOLICS with impunity. That's SOMEWHAT better on such scores now . . . depending.

The media, advertisements, movies, TV etc. etc. etc. all brainwash folks into thinking that

it is cool,
sophisticated,
collegial,
warm, fuzzy, friendly,
togetherness,
belonging,
'FUN,'
exciting,

etc. etc. etc.

To drink and even to get drunk.

That's wholesale destructive . . . and deliberately so.

Alcohol is big business.
It is also big business in terms of destroying families--a major goal of the oligarchy.

IIRC, it takes 3 hours to metabolize alcohol for an average build with average genetics. That would take 24 hours to handle 8 beers more or less legally.

8 beers in 16 hours or in 12 hours is going to result in an illegal blood alcohol level . . . at the minimum in impaired judgment and fine motor coordination--whether one is British or not British, Native American or not Native American. For many genetic types, it will be worse.

I did not appreciate sufficiently early in my career, even--THE VERY POWERFUL NEED TO BELONG.

Drinking with one's buddies give a moderate to very intense SENSE of BELONGING without doing any of the work of belonging and without benefiting from any of the authentic features of true belonging.

It's a bit like having sex with a prostitute. There's the dopamine high from the orgasm . . . but both parties know there's no real love nor intimacy involved--it's all pretend and for an agreed upon rather mercenary price.

It's also a bit like the belonging that comes from the pseudo-family constructed around gang membership. Yet, as "committed" and "there for you" as gang members profess and sometimes act out--most sober minded realists in the gang realize that when push comes to shove--it's every man for himself--and usually for very cheap, mercenary reasons.

The sense of belonging that comes from drinking with one's buddies is similar.

There's some jovial tones and camaraderie with lots of laughter--some of it genuine.

There's lots of back slapping and maybe some rough-housing affection or even more tender non-sexual affection. And for many men--that's priceless because it's so forbidden for men to affirm one another affectionately unless they are drunk or "gay."

There's lots of pouring one's heart out lubricated by a drug which has put to sleep one's judgment center which would normally maintain the personal party line that no one can be trusted with one's heart-stories and historical traumas narratives.

YET, WHEN ONE SOBERS UP, THE SENSE OF BELONGING has largely been p*ssed down the toilet with the beer remains. It was a charade. It was a Kabuki dance. It was pretend.

Most folks can't remember what all the shared vulnerability stories were about. Most of the "commitments" to "be there for ya, bro" made when drunk are not recalled and are most likely not very lived up to when sober.

So, even one of the BIGGEST MOTIVATIONS FOR DRINKING WITH BUDDIES--TO HAVE A SENSE OF BELONGING--SO RARE FOR MOST MEN--IT'S A HOLLOW, FRUITLESS, SHALLOW SHAM.

Yet the propaganda goes on and on and on . . . right in keeping with the very expensive alcohol advertisements and the movies and TV shows' propaganda that it's all hip, cool, sophisticated, fun, thrilling . . . with no negative consequences.

What a stinking pile of lies.

And perceptive, astute, NON-IN-DENIAL wise folks KNOW that.


.

a reply to: BO XIAN

Indulging with intoxicating substances is historically a normal human behavior. It is a way to meet new friends and over come cultural and language differences.

I do believe drinking brings out one's inner demons. This is too much for some to handle.

Drinking is very much a part of our culture in America. Many enjoying adult drinks responsibility and some do not. I can tell you that the DUI laws are selectivity enforced and I have gone through more trouble for just 1 DUI than most have gone through after earning several. I still do not have a Driver's License, car, job, or money almost 6 years after my one and only DUI.

It does infuriate me that so many are still able to drive with minimal legal hassle after multiple DUIs. I have long paid for my crime, yet I simply can not afford a driver's license and without one I am automatically disqualified from 99% of the jobs available. I am stuck in a viscous cycle I can not get out of. It is the system that has trapped me, not the alcohol.

There is little actual justice in the USA.

a reply to: BO XIAN

Howdy,
Look, I get that the alcohol is a big business, and one that pays to glamorize the product. I agree that there are problems involved, but I still think you're looking at this a bit one-sided.
You say it typically takes 3 hours to metabolize a drink... Can I have a source for that? My source says it would take 2 hours for me, a short, very thin American man, to metabolize a drink... (Note the source is academic and aimed to even dissuade students from drinking excessively. This is material counter to my "cause," if you will.)
www.brown.edu...&_other_drugs/alcohol/alcohol_&_your_body.php
As I said, I am much shorter and much thinner than the average American male, so assuming my source is correct, then it would take less than two hours for a person of average build to metabolize alcohol.
Now let's also talk about your "legal blood alcohol content" issue. I didn't say we drove after we drank, I didn't even imply we drove to go fishing. It is perfectly legal to have a BAC nearing coma levels (however unsafe that may be) as long as you don't operate a vehicle...
But let's talk about your idea of friends drinking. Do you realize that some people become friends before they drink with each other? I would have a problem if I only had friends that I saw when I drank... I have friends because I share interests with those people. They like to fish, I like to fish. They like to camp, I like to camp. The beer is there to enjoy a bit of tipsiness, not to open and pour our hearts out. (I'm not an open individual, and I don't particularly like to hear others pour their hearts out when I'm enjoying nature... My friends are reflected in those choices.)
Again, I respect that you are educated in this matter, but it appears your education has been too clinical without enough experience and I am indeed skeptical of the widespread claims you make...
I mean, I'm on a conspiracy theory site, of which I believe very few conspiracies hold water... But this thread, this thread might actually make a believer out of me if everyone handles the job like you do.
Regards,
Hydeman

a reply to: hydeman11

LOL.

I'll take your source's info. I haven't read in the field for a long time and my memory is likely to be more than a little incomplete on the stats.

My instructors in the field were tough as nails. They tended to see things in black and white terms. They ran their groups in black and white terms.

Particularly on a website read by a large variety of people with various levels of an alcohol problem, I'd rather err on the side of being to starkly strict than too wishy washy, by far.

I wonder if you realize how many children's entire lives are thoroughly messed up by the alcohol consumption of their parents.

--their self-respect
--their self-worth
--their marriage/partner relationships
--their work relationships
--their friendships
--their own potential/probabilities for addictions
--their own drinking and driving
--their own potential/probabilities for spousal abuse
--their own potential/probabilities for child abuse
. . .
. . .
. . .

The results are extreme.

I don't mind being somewhat extreme about blowing the whistle of alarm and alert.

a reply to: BO XIAN

Howdy,
All right, fair enough. I get that you see a problem, and yes, I've seen firsthand the destruction alcoholism can have on families (thankfully not my own). Yeah, there are problems, and those problems (to me) seem linked to poverty in more than a significant way (as in poverty increases the likelihood of alcoholism, probably depression too... Probably related). I agree I see this as a social issue, but can you not understand my own concern for how absolute your thinking is?
I don't like moral absolutes. I don't believe in absolutes. Absolutes have proven to be failures several times in American history... (Absolute ban on alcohol? Prohibition was a failure... Absolute war on terror? How many Americans feel positively about this?)
Now, that said, do you have any idea how many Americans are fine despite having alcoholics in the family? How many Americans grow up relatively well and flourish despite one or more parents "binge drinking" once every few months with their friends? There is a difference between whistle blowing and painting a mole hill as a mountain... I worry that your alarm is unwarranted, is all. Rather, not that it is unwarranted, but that the scale of the problem is lesser than what you believe it to be?
Let me remind you, by your definition, I have an issue with alcohol. I find this hard to believe considering I almost never touch the stuff, never desire the stuff, and almost never consume more than one serving in a sitting... I'll admit I have a problem with caffeine, and an unhealthy one that affects my sleeping patterns and mood... But alcohol? I might as well be a teetotaler with how often I drink that... Does this not demonstrate some kind of problem with the methodology?
Again, I do respect that you are trying to be quick and to the point about a serious social issue, but is it not possible that you are doing more harm than good by being too much of an alarmist and limiting your audience? Is it not possible that your absolutism in these issues is a problem in itself, and one that is at the heart of the training and methodology, and not the American populace in general?
Regards,
Hydeman

PLEASE paragraph your posts with micro-rests of blank space between short, journalistic style paragraphs. Aging eyes need it . . . and most people will simply not read a "wall of text" post.

a reply to: hydeman11

2nd try.

Good questions . . .

Now, that said, do you have any idea how many Americans are fine despite having alcoholics in the family? How many Americans grow up relatively well and flourish despite one or more parents "binge drinking" once every few months with their friends?

1. "fine" . . . statistically, not many. Alcoholism leaves a VERY SIGNIFICANT ATTACHMENT DISORDER IMPRINT on every child in the family.

2. Certainly some children COPE with it and overcome the bulk of it better than others. That doesn't mean WELL and it doesn't mean without high cost in terms of healthy intimacy issues; healthy work relationships; successful bonding with THEIR children; etc. etc. etc.

3. YES, Some learn what NOT to do by keenly observing their parents. And COMPARATIVELY one might say they do "fine" compared to many others from such a home context. However, compared to more or less full blown healthy functioning on all the significant measures . . . not quite as fine as you seem to think.

4. "flourish?" I don't think of a single case where I could use the word "flourish" accurately.

5. You seem to write as tough the binge drinking occurs in a vacuum without ANY significant influence on the rest of the home scene and life. That's just not the case.

6. The same attitude and perspective that GIVES ONE PERMISSION to binge drink--with whatever frequency . . . TENDS to also give one permission to emphasize other 'selfishness' issues at the expense of other family members--often to great hurt.

7. I certainly don't know you enough to make an emphatic assessment about your frequency of binge drinking. I just know that binge drinking is AT BEST a very high risk behavior and USUALLY full of dreadful consequences.

8. How likely is it that my . . . somewhat shrill . . . alert msgs about alcoholism are as big a problem as the alcoholism cases? NOT VERY. LOL. That question, to me, indicates you haven't had much experience with a long string of alcohol cases at close range.

9. If my fierce writing about the problem wakes one person up with an alcohol problem, that would likely help relieve the related impacts and suffering on 10-20 people around that one alcoholic. I'm not the least ashamed of that possibility.

a reply to: BO XIAN

Clearly alcohol has caused problems in your life.

It has caused problems in mine too. I rarely drink, never really did. It does bother me when someone like yourself tells me I have a problem and my life is hopeless. That is a lie my friend.

I believe I am my own God and in control of my own destiny, despite the difficult time I have had thanks to quack shrinks and a legal system that acts to shake a person down for all their money and then get them blackballed from almost all decent paying jobs.

I do not blame alcohol for any of my problems. We live in a sick sad world, the legal system creates criminals and does little to prevent actual crimes.

a reply to: BO XIAN

Howdy,
I do apologize about the paragraph thing, ATS was giving me some trouble when I posted with spaces between paragraphs the other day... (Not posting the entirety of my message, cutting it off at the first paragraph space...) I will attempt to add spaces in between for this response and hopefully it works. (I really should be using Chrome, but I like my plugins on firefox...) If you see this without the spaces and an edit, the post failed. Please do forgive that, as I do sincerely apologize for your eyes. It is not my intention to cause harm, but what must be done must be done.

I do suppose that I over generalized in the opposite direction of your over generalizations. I appreciate your pointing that out. As I said, I'm really not an expert. I can only discuss what I have seen. I've seen some of my friends live through having an alcoholic parent, to go on and lead absolutely fine lives. Get degrees in science, have healthy relationships with other people... Perhaps they are exceptions, sure. I am willing to admit that. I will defer to your academic expertise in that case...

But you misunderstand me when I say it is risky to overstate a problem. When you exaggerate, you risk losing people who might have supported you. You risk people who might have listened. People don't like to be told they're wrong, or they have a problem. You know that as well as I do. So by saying a large population has a problem, you risk losing your credibility to that population. Again, I'm not an expert. And absolutely, I've not dealt professionally with cases of alcoholism. But I think understatement has its uses, too...

Regards,
Hydeman

Edit: It worked.

a reply to: jrod

Actually, no.

Alcohol has not given me problems in my family of origin nor in my adult life.

Some of my alcoholic counseling clients gave me lots of problems but that goes with the territory. LOL.

At one point, I had to cut way back in how many I'd see just because they are so time-consuming and such an energy and emotional drain.

I deplore any official who would 'shake someone down' for money for whatever excuse.

Alcohol is NOT THE problem. It is the symptom.

However, it BECOMES IT'S OWN SERIOUS PROBLEM.

I forget who authored this famous quote--oh, it was Dr Murray Banks . . . you can find him on youtube.

HOW TO LIVE WITH YOURSELF . . . OR . . . WHAT TO DO UNTIL THE PSYCHIATRIST COMES . . . .

"Alcohol will never wash away your problems. It will only irrigate them a little."

www.youtube.com...

Alcohol exacerbates all the other related ATTACHMENT DISORDER generated problems.

a reply to: hydeman11

You have a point about understatement vs hyperbole.

It's just that satire and hyperbole are more my style with accompanying consequences and draw backs.

I learned a very long time ago, I'm far from one size fits all.

People who've never met me can walk into a room, take one look at me and leave and never return. I tend to be a polarizing stimulus.

I also tend to be a lightening rod for attacks and bullying from certain personalities and interest groups and/or value orientations.

It have never worked well for me to try and be someone else or greatly different than what I am.

SOMETIMES, I can use understatement skillfully and cleverly. It just doesn't tend to be my style . . . particularly on ATS.

Now the book of Haiku I wrote . . . had both understatement and lots of !!!WHAM!!! verses.

Paradoxes seem to abound with me.

a reply to: jrod

I occasionally . . . 3-7 times/year . . . drink half a glass or less, very rarely a full small glass . . . of low alcohol (5%, 6%, 7%) slightly sweet wine . . . like Asti Spumanti in taste. I used to be a teetotler.

I have NEVER been even slightly tipsy . . . . not in college; not in the Navy and not even in China/Taiwan . . . much to the consternation of many who tried very hard to entice me toward such.

I don't like the taste of beer. And certainly not hard liquor.

a reply to: BO XIAN

Howdy,

First, thanks again for helping me to realize ATS no longer hates my Firefox.

I completely understand if you wish to use a familiar style, or one that seems to get better results for you. I merely wanted to point out that you might still be provoking that effect. It's great that you're self-assured, that's probably the best thing a person can be, and I wouldn't ask anyone to be something they're not... But again, that doesn't change the facts.

As for the topic of the thread, I think we've reached as much of an understanding as we can, so I appreciate your discussion to this point, but I think I've outlived my "welcome" and long since said my piece...

Sincere regards,
Hydeman

a reply to: hydeman11

Thx for your kind comments.

I think you should feel free to comment further if and when you feel the inclination. I've enjoyed the exchanges. I've appreciated your worthy and insightful points.

I don't think of myself as all that self-assured.

It's just that some things I know a lot more about than others. And on those things, I can certainly come across as pretty convinced. LOL.

a reply to: BO XIAN

You have no experience with alcohol personally so why would anyone take your advice when you have not even been drunk?.
You have not experienced it and have been taught what to say.
If I needed help I would find someone whom has experienced booze.

a reply to: boymonkey74

The program I worked in paired a seasoned AA person with us interns in running the group process groups.

It was a good combination.

I realize you may consider me utterly ignorant and worse . . . but not everyone did nor does.

BTW, a number of male gynecologists have never had a baby . . . actually . . . all of them. LOL.

Do you think that only someone who's jumped off a cliff is qualified to give advice to another contemplating it . . . perhaps from their dictated screams on the way down?

a reply to: BO XIAN

Iam sure you do a great job but if you don't know what being drunk have I can't see you actually understanding what people actually fe like when dependant on booze.
Sorry but you will not be able to put yourself in their shoes if you have never worn them.

a reply to: BO XIAN

Howdy again,

First, let me say that I'm not a big fan of AA as an end all be all kinda program when it comes to alcohol issues. Sure, it helps a lot of people, but I disagree with some of the... required philosophy. As such, I would find it distasteful if AA were required by court of law... But they do a lot of good, so I can't argue too much...

As for the male gynecologist thing, not necessarily true. The concept of the gender spectrum might negate your claim a bit.

I get the point though, not everyone needs to have experienced something to talk about it. But given the choice(and I mean no offense), I'd personally prefer someone who had had experience. For example, I'd like a doctor who's had experience diagnosing medical illness over an intern fresh outta college courses. It's all well and good to theoretically understand, but it is another thing entirely to know. I do hope you can understand the distinction and why some people might prefer that? (Seriously, the local hospital is a learning hospital... I was born as a result of a botched "sterilization", and the quality of the doctors around here hasn't increased much since... >.>)

Regards,
Hydeman