Save Earth or Save the Human Species?

Earth will chew us up, crap us out and reset for the next species long before we can figure out how to sustain a colony in the stars.....

originally posted by: Chiftel
You're welcome to leave. But not with any resources, technology and raw materials you take from here. We don't owe you a rocket.

You could try hitching a ride with a UFO or something.

In this silly, hypothetical situation I get to take whatever I want.

You get to take what the community decides is reasonable for you to take. For as long as we decide you can take it and for the purposes we decide.

It's called democracy.

But even if we allow you to take absolutely everything you want, short of a completely functional and fully fuelled spacecraft, you still won't be able to pull it off.

You see, no one goes into space by themselves.

You'd have to con a lot of people to selflessly work towards your personal, selfish interests and goals. With nothing in it for them.

And this only works in capitalism, theocracies, feudalism and societies based on outright slavery.

Then again, slaves wouldn't know how to make a rocket.

Without coercing and stealing from us you're pretty much out of luck.

Unless you can hitch a ride with some space aliens, as I said before.

But even then you'd be reliant on their goodwill as I doubt you'd have anything to trade they might be interested in and incapable of simply taking from you.

a reply to: Timing

originally posted by: Chiftel

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Chiftel
Both. But you'll need to kill capitalism (abolish private property, right of inheritance and money).

At that point I would rather live on my own damn planet. Alone.

You're welcome to leave. But not with any resources, technology and raw materials you take from here. We don't owe you a rocket.

You could try hitching a ride with a UFO or something.

And those resources don't just jump out of the ground into a fully formed rocket without the effort and know-how of people, too. Without the hard work and labor of people, your resources are just so many rocks on or in the ground. Have fun with that.

If you don't let people keep the fruits of their labor, they lose the will to try.

originally posted by: Chiftel
You get to take what the community decides is reasonable for you to take. For as long as we decide you can take it and for the purposes we decide.

It's called democracy.

No, it's called tyranny.

originally posted by: Chiftel
You get to take what the community decides is reasonable for you to take. For as long as we decide you can take it and for the purposes we decide.

It's called democracy.

Nah. I opted to fill my rocket with everything I want. Most of it wholly unnecessary for my future life.

a reply to: Timing

Our human bodies have had many generations to adapt to the specific environment on Earth. Maybe we could adapt to some places like Mars with enough resources and infrastructure. Establishing colonies is not easy and takes time, a few tried before America and Australia got going.

Then the option of being space bound has issues as well for our physiology, maybe after a few generations adaptions might happen or could try some GMO on your kids, yeah options hey.

Good luck to get your hands on a cool space ship and finding a nice planet somewhere.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

While we can kill other species as well as ourselves, humans will have negligible long term effect on the planet. As far as geological time is concerned we are just a short lived dominant species that might leave behind a few minor mementos, like the pyramids and probably a scant bit of evidence in the crust.
As for space exploration, once it becomes cost effective, mining on other bodies will become the thrust behind it. We should continue to fund NASA, but NASA will never lead to large scale off planet operations. Only good old fashioned capitalism can pull that off.

As for the Earth, St. George puts it best:

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Chiftel
You get to take what the community decides is reasonable for you to take. For as long as we decide you can take it and for the purposes we decide.

It's called democracy.

Nah. I opted to fill my rocket with everything I want. Most of it wholly unnecessary for my future life.

You don't get to opt for that.

You get to opt for one among the options the human community who collectively own this rock allows you to choose from.

Imagine a submariner suddenly getting it in his head he owns stuff on the boat and claiming it is his right to do so.

That's basically the concept of private property.

And your point of view.

However, you don't own the boat. You're just one of the crew who, collectively, owns the entire boat.

Imagine the cook decided one day he owns the food on the vessel.

Because he homestead the kitchen or something or because he cooked it, thereby mixing in his labour.

That's basically the concept of private property for you.

Patently absurd.

Only thing more absurd is the concept of there being a right of inheritance.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Yea, but I like the idea of my tax money going to an organization that we can at least audit and has the backing of a strong military instead of a private army.

the planet. sorry humanity but you blew it.

a reply to: Chiftel

I.e the suffering part.

I'm very much a capitalist, but also know that the animal of capitalism also needs a natural predator to keep it in check.

Your reply is exactly the path we are heading down, except space colonization will only be for the elite, and if you aren't apart of the elite you'll be left to die here along with the rest of us.

originally posted by: kwakakev
a reply to: Timing

Why does saving Earth or Humans have to be an option? If we cannot save the Earth then we cannot save Humans.

Also, even if we all went ahead and offed ourselves collectively in order to save the earth, we'd still not be saving the earth as we'd be leaving behind our tremendous amount of toxic garbage everywhere. Case in point--Hanford. Take away humans today and who is going to keep Hanford from leaking throughout all time after we're gone? In order to save earth, we have to save ourselves. It can't be one or the other. Humanity must survive to continue to rectify our past mistakes and hopefully live smarter in the future so the whole planet remains habitable.

originally posted by: RoScoLaz3
the planet. sorry humanity but you blew it.

Thing is - even if you save the planet, it will just get destroyed by the sun in a few billion or so years anyway.

So, I opt to try to take control of the destiny of the race. We learn how to move out beyond or home planet ... we at least have a chance at something real and long-term. It opens up the possibility, too, of being able to remove ourselves from those who just can't seem to let well enough alone.

People like Chiftel can either be left behind or, alternately, can hook up with other like-minded people to go establish the new People's Utopia somewhere else rather than trying to compel the rest of us to go along with him/her.

Getting off the planet affords us SPACE again.

a reply to: Kuroodo

Exactly what I was thinking.

Eventually our sun is going to burn out or go Supernova, so Earth is screwed no matter what, it may take a few billion years, but Earth is still screwed.

a reply to: ketsuko

I agree.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Chiftel
You get to take what the community decides is reasonable for you to take. For as long as we decide you can take it and for the purposes we decide.

It's called democracy.

No, it's called tyranny.

That is simply laughable.

Democracy, be definition, is the antithesis of tyranny.

Tyranny is when a minority forces its will on the majority. Tyranny is minority rule.

Private property and, consequently, capitalism are thus, by definition, tyranny.

a reply to: ketsuko

I'm guessing that when you read the story of the The Little Red Hen, you think she is terrible for keeping all the bread to herself?

Not at all, but you have a valid point about resources and what not, but those resources came from a planet that we all inhabit and the corporation that will eventually own the product also has to pay taxes.

It all has to do with who you think actually owns the Planet and how far right you lean I guess.

Interesting response and point of view though.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

I disagree, if more work went into figuring out how the climate works instead of pushing a false narrative of how we think it works, leaps and strides in advancements would be made in building a suitable bio-dome.

Just like some prehistoric Dino's are still around, i.e. alligators and crocodiles, some humans will survive, until the Earth dies.