There are no angels.

a reply to: Murgatroid
What does your hatred for the Catholic church have to do with the discussion about the Middle East players - Israel and 'Palestine'?? Would you care to comment on the situation and who, if anyone, is to blame? What can be done, if anything, about what is going on?

a reply to: seagull

First of all, I admire your approach to this matter in the OP. However, after reading through every comment, I couldn't help to notice your subtle bias towards Palestine despite the effort of trying to convey there are no angels on either side in which I agree. I notice you ignored this post by another member who has actually witnessed first hand the horrors taking place there and when considering the fact that there are so much arm chair pundits out there, I found that very interesting to say the least....

This was posted on page.1 of this thread by Expat888

I spent two years running a clinic in gaza .. seen and experienced what israelis do to people firsthand ..
took a bullet to the shoulder from an israeli when was patching up another israeli soldier in the street then got to experience firsthand israeli hospitality for three months till the japanese embassy stepped in. So yes Ive earned my right to speak out against the evil israel did and does .. will continue speaking out until every last israeli is put on trial for crimes against humanity and held to account for their actions.

I was curious to what your take on this is?

a reply to: FlyersFan

What you label as 'hatred' for the Catholic church is in reality love for those who are in deception.

I love Catholics and have some very dear friends who are in fact Catholic.

If you love someone you will share the truth with them about things that matter regardless if it's politically correct or not.

The religious have ALWAYS been offended by the truth.

a reply to: Murgatroid
You still haven't answered addressed the topic .... what is happening between Israel and the Palestinians. What is happening. What can be done about it ... if anything.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: minusinfinity

Are you saying you don't want free speech, open discussion?

Didn't say a word about not sayin' it. I said that it disgusts me that people with little or no knowledge and/or experience dare to judge. Call for blood and death, with no fear of the repercussions of that call.

I must say....

Despite my many years of first-hand experiences within the heart of Gaza and it's surrounding regions, I have stayed out of the recent multiple ATS threads regarding these dead bodies showing up.

Why?.... the fact that i was there and saw with my own eyes, or that i know and lived my life with the peoples on both sides, that i have witnessed and experienced what most only ever see on news.... this fact means nothing to most ATSers. They will argue with me pointlessly for their own emotional ends! and my voice of experience will quickly become overshadowed by the comments of the ignorants of ATS, of which there are not few.

You sir, seagull, give me hope.


It disgusts me too, that people want blood without even knowing or being in the place they so judge.

a reply to: seagull

Above any thread I have ever read on ATS regarding this horrible situation, this is the most meaningful, well written, well educated and none ignorant post I have ever had the pleasure of reading. Many people here are far to young, uneducated and ignorant to even begin to grasp the intricacy of the problem in the region and what has the potential to spin out of control. They completely fail to grasp that if either side falls, that both sides fall. Period. The region then becomes a wasteland along with the massacre of millions of people.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: robbo961

You go right ahead and believe that.

...and, I suppose, though I could be wrong, you can also go right ahead and keep believing that the Palestinians can do no wrong...that they're nothing but innocents wronged here, with non blood on their hands, either.

So you are taking sides then?... intersting conclusion to your opening dialogue... what happened to no angels or demons?

a reply to: Specimen

Is that so. Not according to this verse from revelation 17.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

There are two sets of People in this world according to religion. The slefish People and the elect. The majority of the People in this world including you are selfish. That make selfish Choices many times a day. Then you have the elect who dont make selfish Choices at all.

Now, why do you think we have all these damnd evil People around? Because of selfish People making selfish Choices.

The beast in revelation 13;1 is made up of selfish People who will do a lot of harm. What we complain about today is peanuts compared to what is to come. The selfish will not pay any attention towards what they are doing, because of the selfish crownd Who's doing the excat same thing as them selves. They think that their selfish laws are moraly good because they made the laws.

To me it fits the scale 100%. Only the selfish would deny it.

If the selfish People are in a majority and the elect are a minority and you think of a democarcy. Who rules the Democracy? The selfish.

a reply to: Involutionist

My take?

OK. though I should think it would be obvious. It's horrible. ...and the perpetrators should hang. Clear enough?

How many times do I need to say it?

Both sides are in the wrong.

a reply to: robbo961

Your reading comprehension needs work.

I"ll one more time, for the one's who apparently missed it the first few times I've said it...

Both sides are in the wrong.

The people who commit these crimes against innocents should hang. Is that any clearer for you??

I wonder if anyone else finds it ironic that the OP has succeeded at instigating the very thing it purports against. The OP has established that words do not affect change, yet all the OP is are words. A bit counter productive in my opinion. Raving about the armchair warriors is as pointless as the armchair warring itself...

Now that people have started fervently debating the middle east, including the owner of this thread, the OP has been sullied.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: Involutionist

My take?

OK. though I should think it would be obvious. It's horrible. ...and the perpetrators should hang. Clear enough?

How many times do I need to say it?

Both sides are in the wrong.

If both sides are wrong why do you agree that the prepetrators should hang?

This is actually the core problem to Our problem. If anything both sides should hang. Than there would be no one to do anyting wrong.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: robbo961

Your reading comprehension needs work.

I"ll one more time, for the one's who apparently missed it the first few times I've said it...

Both sides are in the wrong.

The people who commit these crimes against innocents should hang. Is that any clearer for you??

Now who's getting fired up, do you really believe my "reading comprehension needs work" or are you trying to insult me?

I think I made a valid point and I read you very well thank you.

a reply to: robbo961

Both going hell for leather at each other

www.davidicke.com...

a reply to: seagull

Amen brother!!!

originally posted by: seagull
Israel and Palestine... Again. Or is it still?

Three Israeli kids found dead. Murdered by persons presently unknown.

Later, a Palestinian kid found dead. Murdered by persons presently unknown.

...and the hatred flows, yet again.

But not just in Israel. But not just in Palestine.

But here on ATS, as well.

Armchair heroes demanding blood for blood.

Death to 'em all... They're all evil...

For thousands of years, literally... These folks have been slaughtering each other over resources. ...over religion. ...over many an other thing. Nothing new here.

Or is there?

What is new, or more recent, anyway...and rather disgusting, is the seeming glee that many of you seem to take in calling for the murder of which ever side you hate today. Blood for blood, you scream.

So caught up in your self-righteous fury that it completely escapes , and will continue to do so, your attention that the "other side" is just as guilty.

There are no angels in this conflict.

The only angels I see are the little kids being killed/maimed on both sides.

Still you prattle on, and on, about the evil whomever.

Then religion gets brought into it... As if that excuses it somehow... Really? How does it excuse anything of this nature? Those kids are still dead, and still maimed.

The Israelis are wrong. The Palestinians are wrong. Both. BOTH. BOTH!!!

They're all of them wrong. ...and will continue, by all appearances, to be wrong.

But you know what? They, at least, are honest in their hatred of each other.

Wrong-headed. Stupid. Foolish to the point of absurdity. All of those, and more... But honest.


What's your excuse? You with your smug self-righteous call for more blood? You, sitting in your computer chair on the other side of the world.

What's your excuse for hating that of which you know little to nothing?

You've never met, in all likelihood, an Israeli. Yet you color them all with the same brush.

You've never met, in all likelihood, a Palestinian. Yet you color them all with the same brush.

You know nothing of them, yet you presume to judge them. You?

You know nothing of them, yet you call for their blood? You?

I save a special loathing for you. You, you armchair warrior, who has never lived the lives that some of these people live. You dare?

Do the world a special favor, would you?

Shut the Hell up!! You aren't helping solve the problem. If anything, you're making it worse by your tacit, if not outright, approval of whichever side you're rooting for.

Yes, you read that right. Let me repeat it for you...



You aren't helping solve the problem. You're only helping to make it worse.


Get it through your thick skulls. There are no angels in this conflict. Only victims. Only murderers. ...and you, the fan of blood sports.

Bravo ! Seagull - You are so so right !

I don't think blaming everybody for Israels doings is fair. It starts with Israel. It starts with what they done and what they continue doing to this day. What's the Palestinians supposed to do? And everyone else who is the victim of the Israelis and their Nazi-like behavior. It's absurd to place blame on the victims. There was some shady business that went down in WWII.

Just today I saw on the MSM loads of Israelis marching down the streets chanting: "Death to all muslims". Not saying that the other side doesn't do it too, but Israel is no victim.

The OP is 100% correct. Here in South Africa of all places I walked into a local shop and was waiting at the checkout counter when I overheard the packer discussing with the client ahead of me how "blowing up more towel heads" was the highlight of his day.

The conversation was between two Jewish Men as I live near a Jewish neighborhood. Eventually the shop attendant looked at me as if asking what do I think and I replied in a raised voice that he knew nothing about what was going on in the middle East. Also how dare he make such comments which further fuel this system which he was obviously brainwashed by already. He literally melted in the spot he was standing because it seemed I was the only person in years who reacted like this.

For obvious reasons I choose not to support that shop any longer.

Not many agree with me considering many of my friends are Jewish.

In my opinion the brainwashing is too strong and whatever demons are in these people are not going anywhere soon. Considering "thou shalt not kill" is a universal holy rule I find it hard to believe even Christians calling for the killing of Muslim people to bring about peace in the middle East.

This brings a saying to mind which I had read once.

"Bombing for peace is like f#c@ing for virginity".

originally posted by: combatmaster

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: minusinfinity

Are you saying you don't want free speech, open discussion?

Didn't say a word about not sayin' it. I said that it disgusts me that people with little or no knowledge and/or experience dare to judge. Call for blood and death, with no fear of the repercussions of that call.

I must say....

Despite my many years of first-hand experiences within the heart of Gaza and it's surrounding regions, I have stayed out of the recent multiple ATS threads regarding these dead bodies showing up.

Why?.... the fact that i was there and saw with my own eyes, or that i know and lived my life with the peoples on both sides, that i have witnessed and experienced what most only ever see on news.... this fact means nothing to most ATSers. They will argue with me pointlessly for their own emotional ends! and my voice of experience will quickly become overshadowed by the comments of the ignorants of ATS, of which there are not few.

You sir, seagull, give me hope.

It disgusts me too, that people want blood without even knowing or being in the place they so judge.

My earth brother please accept my apology on behalf of Americans, truly the people in this country are so ignorant of their own blood lust that they don't even consider the implications of it. They speak out of the ignorance of constant shelter and the ego from security. I have witnessed bloodshed and death of loved ones in my life but truly it is nothing compared to what you must have endured and continue to endure. Truly I feel for your people and send them all of my love and compassion and prayers for an end to their suffering. Only an ocean separates us, nothing else, for as I see it we are all family on this planet.

Please accept my deepest condolences, not everyone in America is blinded by ignorance. Blessings to you and yours!

a reply to: seagull

JewAgainstZionism has many stories of Jews living peacefully with Muslums (looking after each others children etc) in Palestine long before zionist came into the picture. But as one UK politician said long ago, Palestinians are flower children compared to our reaction if Israel tried similar grievances against us.