Famous Cardiac Surgeon’s Stories of Near Death Experiences in Surgery

a reply to: jonnywhite

Then how do you explain him knowing what the doctors were doing after being clinically dead for 2 min?

Well the surgeon said he shouted for the anesthetist to come back in the room after he noticed more and more brain activity. But he said the guy said he saw him and another doctor talking in a doorway and the anesthetist ran in. They two descriptions didnt really match up. close but not quite there.

originally posted by: jonnywhite
a reply to: AnarchoCapitalist

Consciousness can not YET be reduced to its constituent parts. To claim it'll never be reduced is not wise, as we've a lot to learn.

To explain consciousness via material interactions is impossible because that entails combining physical and metaphysical systems.

It's simply not possible.

I typically use a Lego block example for this.

Matter = Lego blocks of all shapes and properties.

If I were to give you bucket of red lego blocks, could you ever build me a blue colored object?

Obviously the answer is no, because blue is not a constituent property of the system you have to work with. In the same manner, it is not possible to build experiencing awareness from inanimate matter, unless the matter itself has components of experiential awareness within it already.

This is a philosophical problem, not a material physics problem.

a reply to: PhoenixOD
I'd like there to be an after-life or some enveloping beautiful harmony that closes and eradicates any sense of despair or longing.

My perfect answer would be a type of immutable time capsule that stores every moment of every space in the universe for all time. It may never be viewed, but as long as it CAN be then it'd be an uplifting thought.

All this then won't be impossible to remember with time. There's a chance for it to be remembered by something somewhere. I like that.

But... there's no evidence to support it. I'd like to believe it, but I'm at a stage where that seems like believing in Santa Claus. And yet, I KNOW Santa Claus is just a story, but this goes unanswered. I can't say this is impossible, I just can't say it has evidence yet.

Alas, the after-life is the same. It remains unanswered for me. Same goes for God or spiritualiy or similar. It's all too fuzzy, too immaterial.

a reply to: AnarchoCapitalist
I still disagree. I'm not going to get involved further. Look sir maybe you're right about it, but I feel the way I feel. Just agree to disagree.

originally posted by: PhoenixOD
a reply to: Unity_99

Selectively choosing evidence is a sign of being programmed into strongly held beliefs that create brain mapping, where neurons actually form a web and the person can't see anything beyond beliefs.

You have to be able to incorporate the other evidences in and not ignore them or you have a faulty view.

Right back at you there Unity_99

Not exactly dear one, as I didn't dispute what you wrote, just added to it. Whereas you have to subtract.

That is what is meant by ignoring evidence, you don't paint a full picture so you draw conclusions based on a smaller amount of evidence and support ISMS.

a reply to: jonnywhite

You just watched evidence, if you watched the video that is. Not proof, but substantial evidence, and supported by the fellow staff. The only way you wouldn't see evidence is if you can't process what you don't support, which is called brain mapping. It means theres blinders on.

a reply to: Unity_99

uh, my mistake..its like 4am here. Apologies , im heading to bed

Here it is attributed to the “The Lazarus Phenomenon”

There is an unusual medical event called the “The Lazarus Phenomenon”. The “The Lazarus Phenomenon” is a situation where a person spontaneously recovers heartbeat, blood pressure, breathing, and consciousness after periods of absent heartbeat lasting sometimes as long as 26 minutes (Quick 1994). This phenomenon was known and reported during 1994 (Quick 1994)—a period dating before this man was operated and spontaneously recovered heartbeat after 20 minutes of absent heartbeat. Subsequent reviews of this phenomenon covering more than 38 such patients in 1998 (Adhiyaman 1998), and during 2007 (Malek 2007), also seem to have escaped the attention of those involved with describing and reporting this case.

There are multiple explanations for the surprising neurologically intact survival of several of these persons. In some situations, the reason for spontaneous return of circulation is unknown due to lack of details, but that does not mean a paranormal cause. So this fascinating report by Lloyd Rudy is one of the rare, but known cases of the “The Lazarus Phenomenon.” But what of the near-death experience (NDE), and the out-of-body experience (OBE) reported by this man?

A very interesting read.
Question is now, who and what to believe?
I thought I saw someone in this thread refer to the Lazarus Phenomenon, but on re-reading, I could not find it.

originally posted by: MentorsRiddle

This is simply not true. The drug you reference causes a vastly different effect than that of a NDE. Dimethyltryptamine hallucinations are often times abstract, and experiencers are often times unable to recall experiences once the subject has "come-down". Much like a dream.

the affects of endogenous '___' are quite different from the chemically produced illegal variety.
As for your analogy with dreams, you might want to check this article out detailing a study that seems to indicate that NDE's and OOBE's are a form of lucid dreaming. www.livescience.com...

An NDE is typically non-abstract, and very accountable after the experience.

then why do NDE's vary depending on cultural background? if the experience were based on an extra dimensional reality that exists beyond the veil of life as we know it then the experiences should be uniform yet they are not. they also are not always pleasant experiences/ they vary so much from person to person, culture to culture that your statement above is just silly in how wrong it is.

Some NDEs have elements that bear little resemblance to the "typical" near-death experience. Anywhere from one percent (according to a 1982 Gallup poll) to 20 percent)[37] of subjects may have distressing experiences and feel terrified or uneasy as various parts of the NDE occur, they visit or view dark and depressing areas or are accosted by what seem to be hostile or oppositional forces or presences.[38] Persons having bad experiences were not marked by more religiosity or suicidal background. According to one study (Greyson 2006) there is little association between NDEs and prior psychiatric treatment, prior suicidal behavior, or family history of suicidal behavior. There was also little association between NDEs and religiosity, or prior brushes with death, suggesting the occurrence of NDEs is not influenced by psycopathology, by religious denomination or religiosity, or by experiencers' prior expectations of a pleasant dying process or continued postmortem existence.[39] Greyson (2007) also found that the long term recall of NDE incidents was stable and did not change due to embellishment over time.[40]

Furthermore, people on Dimethyltryptamine drips don't see things happening in adjacent rooms, have entire conversations with deceased loved ones, or come back with knowledge they should have no right to know.

there is actually a huge difference between processed '___' and endogenous '___' and how they affect the brain. One needs to be taken first and then pass the blood/brain barrier and the other doesn't have to be filtered as it is created in the brain/pineal gland.

No - Dimethyltryptamine is not a valid answer in this situation. This is further backed up because the patient had no brain activity, and Dimethyltryptamine induces that...

Dr. Rick Strassman suggested that after death, decomposing pineal tissue might empty '___' directly into the spinal fluid, allowing it to reach the brain's sensory and emotional centers and causing residual awareness. "The consequence of this flood of '___' upon our dying brain-based mind", Strassman wrote, "is a pulling back of the veils normally hiding what Tibetan Buddhists call the bardo, or intermediary states between this life and the next". Michael Persinger and D.R. Hill have also argued that mystical experiences of all types (including NDEs) might be caused by circumstances that trigger the release of '___' from the pineal gland, and near-death experience researcher Pim van Lommel has written about the similarities between '___' trips and the NDE.

a reply to: peter vlar

Why would you suppose that experiences would ever be uniform. Not that they aren't, and can be classified as positive,negative, abyss, layers of abyss.

But people who haven't fully crossed over, ie its not permanent for them and they are sent back, do not go through the deprogramming stage where they gradually wake up and remember who they are. From astral sites, and accounts of soul rescues it can take time for some, it been shared that many go to a realm like earth, but higher level, more of a thoughtscape, and spend time with family often in their childhood homes.

So assuming anything is not really scientific especially when it comes to consciousness and how it regains memories and levels.

But I would go further since we're in infinity and infinity does not do 1's. Its infinite 1's and infinite variety wherein the fractals springing forth from parents, and grandparents are also infinite.

You would actually have very different types of understanding and grades and accomplisments already under the belt for some, and you would have different types of beliefs and workshops.

So even though most fit into patterns, you'd still be getting some more diverse ones as well.

Thats how I would see it.

a reply to: AnarchoCapitalist

Once when driving my car home I felt an enormous whirlwind of energy and new instantly it was my mother, she had died. There was an immense feeling of love and concern. I told her not to worry about me and to go to God. I told her I will see her soon enough.

So I applaud Dr. Lloyd Rudy for telling the truth.

If the spiritual body doesn't exist in our dimension then science may never be able to understand it mathematically. But in the end, that matters not. What does matter is that we have an unconquerable soul and it doesn't matter if you believe in religion or not, it will always remain unconquerable.

So never fear death.

Invictus...
Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

a reply to: AnarchoCapitalist

Which of course is more likely than there being a God or a human spirit, according to atheists. They will always defend their position because their minds are closed for business.

originally posted by: AnarchoCapitalist
If you believe in reductive materialism, then you must also believe that matter itself is conscious. Any other belief is a form of cognitive dissonance.

No, I don't believe in something as silly as that. For that we have Deepak Chopra, and whole idea is not just silly, but very unscientific. In short, he bends quantum physics in what you could call quantum mysticism and believe that all mater, including single atoms have consciousness...

If you like to see good discussion on the subject, Dawkins vs. Choopra is a good start... Guess why Choopra said that this was one in life time event, as he does not plans to meet Dawkins ever again...



As I said earlier, without full video, and talking from someone's memory, someone being doctors that are known for high stress... without knowing what instruments got turned off (sometimes instruments get shut down too soon) and trying then to prove that someone managed to survive 20 minutes without oxygen... just too many holes in whole story...

I know it is enough for those wanting to believe that there is some sort of 'spirit world', but as soon as you apply what we already know in medicine about brain and oxygen, this story just does not stand a chance.

Here is little explanation from TransWeb.org:



Whole story just does not stand, and being told by doctor does not make it any more possible...

originally posted by: ScientiaFortisDefendit
a reply to: AnarchoCapitalist

Which of course is more likely than there being a God or a human spirit, according to atheists. They will always defend their position because their minds are closed for business.

You have to be careful not to open your mind too much, 'cause your brain might fall out...



Closed minded people choose to believe in stories like this rather then to proven experiments that over and over proved that human brain without oxygen is just unable to survive for much less time...

originally posted by: SuperFrog

No, I don't believe in something as silly as that.

That's OK.

I don't believe in reductive materialism myself.

a reply to: SuperFrog

I wonder if the skeptics ever tire of calling some of the most intelligent, reasoned people on the planet liars? The second story in the video is about the man who wouldn't stop bleeding out, just when they were going to throw in the towel everybody stopped in their tracks and they all felt a presence in the room. The moment they felt the presence the man stopped bleeding and recovered. Is he lying?

originally posted by: AnarchoCapitalist

originally posted by: SuperFrog
If there was video of procedure and time stamp on it, I would believe its possible, this way, with dental video and no more proof then doctor's word for it... sorry - hard to believe and it is in wrong subforum... this should be moved.

It's not just his word, its the word of the entire medical staff that was in the OR.

I linked the wrong video. The OP has been updated with the correct video.

its fake.they just wanted their 15 minutes of fame and you got suckered.

they are all
lying or joking .its a hoax.i can assure you with 100% confidence.

people die every day.where is their consciences?

where?

millions of animals die or get killed or eaten.where are theirs?

eh?

i think you need to go out and have a drink and stop wasting time on religious mumbo jumbo.

i am jesuses daughter by the way.

originally posted by: jaws1975
a reply to: SuperFrog

I wonder if the skeptics ever tire of calling some of the most intelligent, reasoned people on the planet liars? The second story in the video is about the man who wouldn't stop bleeding out, just when they were going to throw in the towel everybody stopped in their tracks and they all felt a presence in the room. The moment they felt the presence the man stopped bleeding and recovered. Is he lying?

He being so smart does not have nothing to with truth, does it? In this case, he can believe that has past 20 minutes, where it could be 1 or 2 minutes, couldn't be? Can he prove it without actual video? There is no actual evidence to any of claims - except his word - and sorry, but his word is just not enough...

I believe in repetition and experiment, and once they show that really, there is something next to person who died - I'll believe it. Until then, those urban legends are just that - urban legends...

Thanks for sharing this. This case, IMO, is adding credibility to NDE's being more than just a brain-created thing. This is proof that someone left their body.

My mom had to have a life-saving surgery in 2012. She had an aortic aneurysm that had went to 12mm in a very short time. The surgeon gave her 0% life expectancy which he shared with us and her right before he took her to the operating room. The surgeon asked her if she was ready and she said that she asked god to help her. The rest of us thought this was her final moment on earth. We were devastated.

The surgeon told us that his nurse would call the phone in the waiting room and update us. He said to expect that the first call would be to let us know that they had just started. The next call, he said, will most probably be that she is bleeding and they cannot stop it. He was preparing us for her death.

The calls came and every call said that she was doing great. At around 4-5 hours, the surgeon and his staff came into the waiting room. They were all glowing. That's the only way I can describe it. They were glowing. He said that her kidneys were good and that she should make a full recovery. I said "but you didn't give her any chance, what happened?" He said that he didn't know. He said that he was not religious at all, but he and his staff felt some sort of presence in that room. It was undeniable, he said. He also stated something about some sort of glow coming from the corner of the O.R.. He couldn't explain it. He also said that one part of the surgery that usually takes him 30 minutes had only taken him about ten minutes. He said his hands were working really fast and that it was bizarre. I was like WTF?. The other Doc that was helping told me that he confirms all that he just said was absolutely true. So didn't the O.R. nurse. They all seemed a little confused or in shock about what had happened in there.

I don't really believe in god or anything but there is no doubts that something was in that room with them and changed my moms fate. Four months later, a vein to her colon had completely hardened from heart disease and was causing her major problems. This meant another surgery, and again, because of her heart, the Doc said that she would not survive the surgery. She said that she wasn't having another surgery. Before the Doc would let her leave the hospital, he got Hospice in place. She died two months later.

a reply to: Fylgje

Thanks for sharing your story.

The thing that annoys me about near death experience stories is that people always want to link them to religion or heaven. Why do they have to be anything to do with religion? It could be another dimension that people slip into or the consciousness moving on to another place. It all seems very scientific to me. Saying that someone is close-minded because they are not religious is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.