Firefighter chases dog and both are missing 411?

a reply to: WanDash

It seems you were right Wan
Check out the massive link Radar just posted you guys.
I've never seen it before.

originally posted by: radarloveguy
a reply to: randyvs

This thread by JKRog www.abovetopsecret.com...
The Underground Empire , may hold some clues

Thank you so much Radar, I'm setting some time aside tonight and will just sit and read.

a reply to: randyvs
Gotta Love Radar...or - is it - Radar Love?

That is interesting.
Have only read the opening post...and it looks to have garnished interest aplenty...so, could be a while, if it keeps me interested & entertained to the end.
What do you see..there, worth considering...here?

~~~Ah - I see you are considering the same challenge (post above this).

Would be nice to hear what Radar thinks we should be looking for/at...over there...

Here is a quote from 727sky about the
ambient temperatures underground ...

"At only 2 miles below the surface the temperature of virgin rock is around 140°F.
Yet here we have stories of 5 mile deep caverns and people walking around ??
great stories which used to be told around the camp fires to the kids..

Without some kind of super ventilation and air conditioning system our fearless
explorers would be barbecued flesh on the cavern floor after they became
affiliated and passed out from all the noxious gases IMO.

Ask anyone who works on deep wells (less than 20,000 feet = 3.788 miles) what
type of temperatures they reach down hole which can melt all kinds of useful
things used to drill without a continuous supply of cool lubricating mud/fluid.

Like I said great story and much research you have obviously done...
but without pics (video would have been nice) and a depth and temperature
gauge I can't buy it.

The shallow ( 300 metres (980 ft) below the surface in Naica, Chihuahua, Mexico)
........ Even at that depth the Giant Crystal cave is extremely hot, with air
temperatures reaching up to 58 °C (136 °F) with 90 to 99 percent humidity
....... which means normal people can only stand the temperatures for about
10 minutes or run a real risk of vapor locking.

These supposedly underground caverns discussed in the Op are 5 miles deep;
THINK.. No doubt there are many deep caverns but I can guarantee you
there are not people walking around without some sort of well air conditioned
environmental protective suit.."

So maybe not 5 miles deep , but five miles IN ...
I mean HOW would they measure their depth ?

a reply to: radarloveguy

Been think'n.

What if it's air cooled from an opening that sucks cold
air in from the north? An opening somewhere very remote?
Not sure of the logistics but it could be a possibility.
There's your air conditioning.

a reply to: randyvs


Any underground system would need a lot of fresh air ,
but would it stay cool on it's way down there ?
I doubt it runs so deep , which would simplify the infrastructure.

A lot of witnesses have seen ufo's entering and exiting volcanoes .
Are they using empty lava tubes for access ?
And that underwater structure off Malibu ?

With thousands of missing people reported every year,
are they being eaten/ingested .?

I understand one of the recent 411 victim's body has not been
released to their family for burial , ... and so the mystery escalates .

Hey guys I'm just catching up.In regards to the cell phones...
I go to many farms to work my dog & compete in sheepdog herding.
There are 2 farms that are located ~ 2:30 hrs away from where I live
& there is NO Cell service...anther farm 2 hrs away with some cell
service. I farm sit for some friends of mine that are only 1 hr away
& there is zero cell service so when I am there no one can call me.

I know some people like to get out of the big city & when on vacation
don't want to "be on a leash" & they often don't take or use their cell.

All the places I mentioned above have computer service inside the home
& some with cell service in the house, & where I farm sit they have a land
line in the house. Also all of these are in mountainous areas & you can see
some power lines but the cell phone will not work.

When I lived in CA it was the same, less service to no service in the mountains.

Randyvs
I hope you can get out there to have a look around & I especially hope you
get to have a look at the "Spiral".

Cheers
Ektar

a reply to: randyvs

Hey Randy , your looking younger every day !

These 411 cases may be victims of Skinwalker
type entities. Evil spirits that can manifest in many forms
and disappear at will.
It is said that the manifestations have decreased since Bigelow
began researching the place .
Have they now chosen more remote hunting grounds
i.e national parks ! If this ranch in Utah is a portal
to their dimension , I see no reason , once their here ,
for them not to , move around unhindered.

www.abovetopsecret.com...
But run-of-the-mill UFO events don't begin to describe the rich
array of unusual phenomena in this area. The Ute Indian tribe
has been here far longer than white settlers. Tribal leaders are
reluctant to speak to outsiders, but their oral history is replete
with examples of strange creatures and sightings. Indian lore
refers to some of these beings as Skinwalkers. Other cultures
call them shape-shifters, werewolves or Bigfoot.

"The Utes take this very seriously," Hicks says. "They think the
Skinwalkers are powerful spirits that are here because of a
curse that was put on them generations ago by the Navajos.
And the center of the whole legend is this ranch. The Utes say
the ranch is `the path of the skinwalker.' Tribe members are
strictly forbidden from setting foot on the property.
It's been that way for a long time."
www.rense.com...

a reply to: Ektar

I hope you can get out there to have a look around & I especially hope you
get to have a look at the "Spiral".

It's an odd thing, the guts it would take to do something now,
that at one time didn't even conern any nerve at all.

Great read people!!!
To all that contributed THANK YOU for all the info'.
I've never heard of any of this stuff before.
The sheltered life I lead.......hmmmmm.
I don't know but I think he fell off the cliff by accident in the dark.
Things that puzzle me most;
Why chase an experienced hunting dog in the dark nearly naked & shoeless?
He was an experienced outdoors type with plenty of knowledge.
Why did the the dog & master separate?
Why climb a cliff & leave your dog?
What happened to his clothes to make him sit in camp nearly naked?
Why didn't the fishermen mention his clothes?
They mentioned the bag.
The FB devil pic was freaky & made me think, maybe his 'friend' killed him.
Too much to hide & for what motive?
I think the story told by the friend to the cops had been heard before & so they (cops) were willing to accept it.
Otherwise matey should be up on murder one IMHO.
Fantastic read, it took me two days & I haven't been back to ATS main page since lol!!!

a reply to: supamoto
Hi, supamoto
Appreciate your consideration and discipline to get through such a lengthy read.

Fell off the cliff by accident?
That is a genuine possibility.
If he was, indeed, searching for Duke, under 'mysterious' circumstances...after 'hours' of search and climbing, that location would have enabled him to view a lot of the surrounding (lower) climbs in the full moon light.
Don't know if the condors/vultures are busy at night - but, owls are, and, if one 'swooped' him, while gazing across the mountainsides, he could have lost his footing on that shale. (or, any number of other explanations)

And, as you highlight - why leave/chase the dog (almost naked), and continue the search/chase without re-outfitting, when it became obvious that the search would entail more than a brief jog?

Someone said that their clothes were wet from crossing high water streams on the day's hike.

Thanks for keeping this fresh. So many unanswered questions.

a reply to: supamoto

I go back often and skim thru looking for certain pieces of information.
When it fits the context of what I'm currently reading. Couple times
I've gone thru almost the whole damn thread looking. I was honored
by some great members. I still scouff at simple explanations. Like
falling off a cliff because I believe it was a deputy Dean who said the
body was to far away from the cliff face. And the dogs not tracking
alone is completely bazaar when the body is fnally found only' 1250'
up from the campsite.

I was really saddened to read about Mike Herdman death. I live in Ventura County and only heard about this story a couple days ago somehow. So I’m coming in way late to the comments. It’s a really interesting story as so many things don’t even begin to pass “bull # meter”. There is definitely some missing links to the story here. I totally agree with GreenMtnBoys theory on what happened !!! In fact, I wrote this article/post elsewhere and it was so close to GreenMtnBoys theory, I copied it here for anyone to read.

I was wondering if Byars ever had to do a drug test ? I am totally baffled because it sounds like they didn’t test Byars. It sounds like they didn’t question him on #, they just believed his story ? Why ? Even if cops didn’t fully believe his story, or they knew the truth, I think there is good reason that authorities would cover up certain things and close a case simply to not drag the departments into the mudd and ruin the legacy of one of their own. BUT….the Exctasy thing, that’s what was the big flag for me !!!! I really would have liked to know if they both had planned on "partying" with X together on his trip ? Was that even asked of Byar ? Did they intend on doing the drug together ? Or was it in Mikes system from a couple days before… maybe partying with his wife a couple days previously? Here is my take on why Ecstasy may more easily explain this case……

What I believe to be most likely….. and let me first talk to you from experience.
My background…..I've done ecstasy before. Granted it was 20 ago, but i did it probably 10 times. That drug was called the "love drug" by many. It really was, it was a drug that just took every bad feeling anywhere in your body, and replaced it with nothing but one giant incredible feeling that made LIFE AWESOME !!! You just felt great, VERY HAPPY and VERY SEXUAL, not a worry in the world, LIFE IS AMAZING and it is literally the best feeling I’ve ever had in my whole life. I did it with my ex wife every time. I wouldn't have wanted to have done it alone with my male buddies because of a very simple fact. When your on ecstasy you want to "touch" and "feel" and sexual contact is a major craving on that drug. We did it a raves and danced a lot but we always wanted to go somewhere why we were still high to have sex. The best sex I’ve ever had I might ad!!! It was 20 years ago and I still remember how awesome sex was on that drug. You felt so connected to the other person it was unreal ! I was casually dating this lady at the time, didn’t have any long term plans to be with her at all. After doing this drug with her several times, something happened and we were very connected after those ecstasy occurrences. I moved back to my home area where she was and we were together (later married) for the next 20 years.

So why do I tell you this personal background you ask ?
Why a heterosexual man would want to be in total isolation with another heterosexual man doesn't add up at all. If I was a heterosexual man and did ecstasy, I would have wanted to be somewhere like a dance club or a rave with the primary goal being to hook up with a woman !!! If two men decided to go camping way far away in the mountains all alone together with the intent on doing ecstasy together, where no one could possibly witness anything.
The only thing that makes sense to me here is that guys were gay !!!!

Think about it, if a guy was leading a double life as either bi sexual or just someone who was gay-curious and I wanted to have an encounter....I definitely would want to be high, preferably on A drug like ecstasy (to use as an excuse if one had regrets), and if it was something I was embarrassed about and didn't want any other person in the world having the chance of walking in on me experimenting with some gay act....it would be in a very secluded place with no chance in hell anyone would ever be able to witness me. Think about it, if you were leaning that way, you see your fellow firefighter buddy in the showers all the time, you’re together constantly for a couple days at a time at the station....A couple hints are dropped, and then a 1 on 1 trip is planned with two guys in the middle of no where. The firestation is the perfect petri dish for a gay relationship to form until at some point they wanted to try this experiment out in the lab (so to speak). Maybe it wasn’t their first encounter, maybe they had a history together, the bottom line is it sounds like it was a very hidden little secret. Unless the ecstasy was just in Mike'S system (not byars-which we will never know) perhaps mike took it with his wife a couple days prior? That’s possible. But that's an easy enough tell... would the wife ever admit to doing ecstasy with her husband if she wanted to find out the true death of her husband ? Maybe ? It would also be interesting to know if she ever suspected that Mike had any gay tendencies ? Or if she thought there was anything weird about his relationship with Byar? Women’s intuition is really something amazing. OR maybe she did suspect her man was gay and hiding a big secret. But He’s dead now and maybe she wanted everyone, his family, friends, the department to remember him as a good man who simply had an unfortunate accident. A much more decent legacy than a gay man that did drugs and went on some camping trip to have a gay encounter that ended very strangely and terribly.

With all the questions left unsolved in this story, I think the obvious has been looked over by authorities, or maybe they knew what happened and just told a different tale altogether. I think it was a lovers getaway personally. The last place a heterosexual male would want to be is solely with one other man, secluded in the wilderness, and on a drug that makes you ridiculously horny!!! There is just so many other possibilities once you accept the gay factor. Maybe one of them threatened to spill the beans and come out about their gay relationship ? Tell Mikes wife ? Other fireman ? The department ? Maybe a fight ensued, Maybe Byar killed Mike ???? Maybe for Mike it was just an experiment and for Byar he wanted more ? Or maybe Mike refused him sexually and it angered Byar? Maybe Byar slipped a bunch of Ecstasy in Mike’s drink hoping to have his way with Mike ? Maybe Mike flipped out and simply went for a walk and got lost, but was really being trailed by a sober Byar ? Then in a rage he beat him with a blunt force object ?

This theory could easily be disproven. Did Mike’s lady ever know Mike to do ecstasy before ? Had they done it together previously ? Recently ? IF so, then this theory might be bunk. As the investigation ended, nothing was clear, or simply not reported to the press and kept inside by the fire and police dept. Why suffer all that embarrassment if it could be avoided ? Why wasn’t Byar interrogated fiercly ? I mean seriously why does an experienced outdoorsman just run off into the woods barefoot at night after a dog ? The whole thing stinks and I wish there was a way the real story could be known. Just because they were fireman the authorities quickly decided no foul play ? One has to wonder, If Byar is married now, what a great cover eh ? I'd like to be a P.I. and tail him for a couple weeks and see if he finds his way to some gay bars? At the end of the day.... gay, not gay, drugs, no drugs, someone died that shouldn't have, and for that I feel terrible to all that loved him and called him friend.

I just read this whole thread, and what a ride!!!!!

I will make my post brief and to the point. We may not know what happened to these men, but whatever happened it wasn't mundane. And in this instance I'll go far out for an explaination.

Two men go camping. We have heard about UFOs blanking out memories of abductees and inserting false ones.

So Beyers and Herdman are both taken,and one was killed for some reason, ( Think of poachers killing an elephant for the tusks to later be ground up for an aphrodesiac to sell to wealthy men on another continate. Absurd in it's reason to most people, but a fact anyway. )

Now maybe by some criteria we can't fathom,Beyers doesn't have the right "tusks" for harvesting, so he's kicked out with a planted memory of the event.

Beyers finds himself alone without a clue to where Herdman is, but a need to run away from the area. ( Even after implanted memories, many abductees feel a lot of unease that leaves them confused and fearful.)

Next he runs into these fishermen. ( Think undercover stakeout for updated MIB. ) They debrief him, take him to civilization, and on the way out, call for backup to chase the poachers.

ASAP they head to his camp, set the scene with props, and then "heip" the local cops to see the story their way.

Meanwhile the poachers dump the body as they exit just ahead of the cavelry. The fishermen fade out of the picture as soon as they can.

And with some MKUltra tech, someone then dumb down the press and the cops. ( "These are not the droids we"re looking for." )

Then an Authority Figure uses the code phrase
" for national security " and the circus folds it's tent.

And to insure no followup, some judge has the case sealed.

Everything tidy with no real loose ends. And best of all, people like us can speculate till hell freezes over, and no one will listen.

Everything from a terrified dog to ICE being there can be plugged into this scenerio. We may be the bystanders at a crime scene.

I did say this was just farout speculation, so don't flog me.

VF.

a reply to: Deville1986

I was wondering if Byars ever had to do a drug test ?

Why does it matter? He was immediately completely without any
doubt exonerated of any any any wrong doing. Just more strangeness
is all it adds up to. The wierdness involved has to be indicative of something
very wierd. Now imagine the police trying to tell the public about what
they do know if it's completely wierd and creepy? They aren't gonna do it
and lose all credibility. So in my mind after thinking and studying this
phenomena extensively? Of course the cops aren't gonna say anything
about anything paranormal. And that's the only thing that does make sense.

a reply to: randyvs

Something else I've been able to recently make some kind of sense
of regarding these disappearences as a whole is. That when someone is
abducted, a way to keep them from fleeing would be to remove
their shoes. Any way you're looking at it something intelligent beyond
human scope is out there abducting people. The thing I'm wondering
is how often do prayers come into play considering those who are
returned?

a reply to: randyvs

I'm listening to David on you tube right now as he talks
about this case. 4 yrs and it's still just as odd.

By the way I did finally make it there driving truck and picking up strawberrys.
It is a vast wilderness ( the sespe ) area indeed.

a reply to: radarloveguy

The other day as I was thinking about this case I decided to
look into a very old memory of mine about an episode of
one step beyond. This was made 10 yrs before the Dennis Martin
case.

they found his backpack. im no expert, but what outdoorsman leaves his backpack behind if it was important enough to grab before chasing his dog? do we know if the dog was prone to such behavior? possible that the dog sensed something untoward and tried to chase it off. the fireman followed and exposed himself to potential risks in the woods. if they had survived the dog would likely have led him back to civilization, as any outdoorsman with a canine would have trained it in such skills. a practical man keeps a practical pet. if they are both still missing then i suspect they were kept from returning. unfortunate but predictable. he should have taken one of his friends with...buddy system and whatnot. survival 101. problem with these folks is they get cocky and forget no one is invulnerable.

a reply to: TzarChasm

I suggest you read either this thread, or something to
increase your knowledge of exactly what went on here.
Because you are obviously replying from the minimum.