Firefighter chases dog and both are missing 411?

originally posted by: research100
a reply to: Missmissie173

thanks for posting that, I was going to but forgot about it with the other stuff I was thinking I wondered if they didn't see any circling birds??.....even if they didn't do a walk search in that area, did they send the drones in that area the copters

Guess I missed your post, I got sidetracked once I started mine and didn't get back to it right away. Had wondered all along when some one would think about the birds.

YogaGinns

a reply to: WanDash

You bet! I will also submit a book report if any of the research applies to our Fireman.

(That is if I ever leave the RV now that I have scared myself silly with all this!)

a reply to: Missmissie173

Very good question...is it the reporters or the officials? Unfortunately, it is text book for the Paulides 411 scenario. So many of the missing have shown up in places that had been scoured numerous times, at a higher elevation than thought probable and suspicion falls on the last to see person alive as the scene makes no sense. Not to mention that the person just seemingly disappeared.

I don't know why everyone keeps saying he climbed the cliff at night.

If he left the campsite during the night, was missing for two weeks, and had only been dead a few days when they found his body... do the math. He could have fallen during the daytime.

Now here's where things get confusing... if he was alive for the better part of two weeks, then he was alive while his friend spent two days looking for him.

How did he get far enough away from the campsite, barefooted and in the dark, to not be found by his friend sometime during the first night or morning?? How did he get out of shouting distance that quickly? That's the first part of this story that is bewildering.

The length of time that he was dead rules out murder by the friend UNLESS the friend shoved him off the cliff and he clung to life for nearly 2 weeks before succumbing to his injuries... stranger things have happened. We still have to consider the statement by the Sheriff that the body was too far away from the cliff to suspect a fall.

My gut says he was dropped from the air. If he was snatched up by something airborne, it would explain how he got out of shouting range so quickly... in the dark... without shoes, why the dog left him but frantically ran back into the woods as though looking for him, how the search teams and dogs couldn't track him, how he survived for nearly 2 weeks without food or fresh water, how he wasn't found alive EVEN THOUGH 3/4 of a mile is not that far away from the search zone and he would have been walking the area the whole time trying to find his way back to camp... surely if he was anywhere close to that area while the S&R teams were looking, he would have made his way toward the search party or been seen from the air. It is not a heavily forested terrain. It's like he simply vanished on the first night and was dropped back off when whatever took him was done with him.

Think about it... nearly 2 weeks eating only what he was able to forage, drinking creek water (if there was any), exposed to the elements, and without shoes. Do you really think he'd be physically or mentally strong enough to start climbing a cliff? Most people are WIPED out physically after 2 or 3 days without food... you'll never convince me that he attempted to climb in that condition. He was a seasoned outdoorsman; he would have focused on preserving energy, not pulling a Bear Grylls stunt.

sorry if i missed this, but do we have any confirmation on time of death? seems to be conflicting reports. if he died after the rescuers arrived that is beyond confusing.

a reply to: seahawkshos040
The coroner/Medical Examiner placed time of death at or around when the body was discovered.
They then said he had been dead at least a few days...and gave no more detail - I think the terminology actually suggested that they were not inclined to give any more detail.
Though, as one or more have suggested, I don't think there would be grounds to deny an FOIA request since they are stating that no foul play was involved (or - no reason to suspect foul play).

a reply to: Answer
Some interesting thoughts.
My take on the ME saying that he had been dead "a few days"...was that the body was in bad enough shape (scavengers, nature, etc...) that making such a determination, at this time, would have been a foolish call.
Likewise - at no point, did they say anything that could be construed to fit with "dead only a few days".
It seemed that they left room in their comments to allow for death to have occurred as far back as later facts might make necessary.

a reply to: WanDash

Having studied a bit of forensics, I understand completely the coroner's statement. A body in that situation would decompose rapidly. One of my thoughts at the time they were searching was that if he was dead, surely they would catch a whiff of the stench of decomposition. (Gruesome, I know, but ...) Unless the coroner is up to date on the work of the folks at the Body Farm, he'd have to do a bit of research on the exact condition of the remains to even make an educated guess on the date of death and unless the guy had on non-digital watch that shattered in the fall, actual time of death will be pretty much impossible.
Warning! The following isn't pretty but it is true---the crawly critters consuming the remains will tell within 8-12 hours how long they've been at it, thus narrowing down the time that the body has been decomposing. If I were the coroner I'd be sending lots of photos of the remains in situ to the folks in Knoxville or to the fellow out west who has been lobbying to set up a similar facility out there. Can't recall his name right now but his idea is to set up body farm-type facilities in the west to study rate of decomposition in arid conditions.
Hope this helps with the questions about the time of death. While the reporting on this case has been really, really dismal in my opinion, the statements I've seen by the officials involved have seemed perfectly reasonable in view of the circumstances. Unless the coroner has a "bug guy" on his staff it will take some time to determine how long ago the death occurred.
From the pictures I've seen and from an interview with one of the searches I saw, I have to agree that the guy didn't go into that thicket willingly. How he got there is the mystery to me from the information currently available. I do hope some good investigative journalist will take a look at this case. I seem to recall that Paulides never contacts families of the missing directly so I suppose it will be left to this man's family to contact him if they wish to do so.
My thoughts and prayers are with them. They are going through hell.

a reply to: diggindirt

Hi diggin:

I read that the average autopsy takes somewhere between 2 to 4 hours, but processing the results takes around a month.

However, the research report I read said that the victims next of kin can call the Coroner directly to get the results before they are made available to the public.

From your experience, is that the case?

originally posted by: WanDash
a reply to: Answer
Some interesting thoughts.
My take on the ME saying that he had been dead "a few days"...was that the body was in bad enough shape (scavengers, nature, etc...) that making such a determination, at this time, would have been a foolish call.
Likewise - at no point, did they say anything that could be construed to fit with "dead only a few days".
It seemed that they left room in their comments to allow for death to have occurred as far back as later facts might make necessary.

The conflicting reports definitely make it difficult to understand what possibly happened.

If the coroner made a statement that the time of death was near the time of discovery, then the body must not have been in an advanced state of decomposition.

The "always suspicious of official reports" side of me thinks that IF he did originally place time of death near the time of recovery and then later changed it to "he's been dead a few days", someone made him change his story so it wouldn't seem so suspicious. It would be awfully hard to confuse a body that's freshly-dead with a body that's been sitting in the wilderness, in the summer, for 2 or 3 days. Someone may have suggested he change his opinion once realizing that a freshly-dead body made the case even more mind boggling. OR the body has some very strange injuries and they'll use the excuse of "too much decomposition" to avoid revealing any details about the cause of death.

originally posted by: FistOfFreedom
Anyone else think "shapeshifter?"

Why yes!
But I mean 'shapeshifter'...with the help of a 'military' body. (Pun intended).

By 'shapeshifter', I mean that his 'shape' was 'shifted' by helicopter the day he was 'found'.
Or should I now call it a 'shapeshiftee'?

This was an 'experiment', ladies and gents. Experiment done with, then body replaced 'in the vicinity'.
Deposited in an unlikely place? Yes, maybe, but with the now reduced search team, the heli had to find a place that was obviously not searched in detail before. Passed over, but not searched. (wink).

Who knows if the body 'found' was even Herdman's body?

We hear about 'blunt force injuries', but consistant with a fall?...Well that would make sense if the (now deceased) body was dropped by a helicopter onto granite boulders on the search day. Not much other explanation other than reverse gravity, where he would have fallen UP there from the lower campsite!

Oh and the 'accident' was supposed to have happened 'a few days' before finding it...and yet it was reported the coroner could not determine the time of death? Then who determined that death was 'a few days ago'?

Oh yes, this shape was definitely shifted...but who shifted it and why?

Oh, then there's Byers.....Did he really exist at all?
Why do the (non)investigators persist in protecting this 'buddy of Herdman' in an anti-press cocoon?

Oh, I forgot...it was only a drill!
Another mismanaged and badly planned one, at that.

a reply to: Answer
He was not 'declared' dead until his body was found...
The ME was not saying that 'that' was the Time of Death...
But - did not give any more info than - it's been a few days.
I really don't think we're going to find that he survived through the night that he ran off, chasing Duke. But - that's just my take/opinion at this time.

originally posted by: Missmissie173
a reply to: diggindirt

Hi diggin:

I read that the average autopsy takes somewhere between 2 to 4 hours, but processing the results takes around a month.

However, the research report I read said that the victims next of kin can call the Coroner directly to get the results before they are made available to the public.

From your experience, is that the case?

Yes, that has been my experience in Kentucky. Have no idea what the law/custom is in CA. If dental records are available that is the quickest, cheapest method of making an ID.
I'd just like to add here that most coroners, even if they are trained pathologists, aren't trained to precisely determine time of death in instances like this one. But in this case, with clear parameters known about date of disappearance, a good "bug guy" should be able to make a fairly accurate estimate.

randy &

After these two became seperated it's like the movie goes silent. Byars has never said once, that Herdman called to him or anyhthing like that. How does anyone explain that? At the bottom of a canyon where sound is easily traveled and heard? And what does it point too?

couldn't agree more and would also like to say that you are definitely right in saying we arent going to get the kind of detail we would like in regards to the condition of his feet. though it would be nice, probably not going to happen. so me you and jackofblades will all probably wind up disappointed in that regard.

research100

no one has mentioned this ....but....if herdman just ran off after the dog that night and fell off the cliff,wouldn't Byars have heard a scream, he was there looking for him,,,,,the river runs in a steep canyon......which begs many questions ...did he fall, if so when did he fall....if there is a time gap,where was he ........

you guys bring up an excellent points. and i think that is a significant factor in all of this. if he ran off and his friend ran off soon after. wouldn't he still be able to hear him, wouldn't they be playing marco, polo, with their voices in the woods? wouldn't his friend have heard him screaming, falling to his death?

also the true time of death... those who have been trying to pin that down from the news reports. i think that factor is also very important to get a legitimate timeline of events, which has been hazy from the start. i don't know if they'll give an accurate time of death or just fudge it to make it fit a more likely series of events.

don't have much time this morning...but keep up the good work posting boys! great thread.

a reply to: CallmeRaskolnikov
Looking for any news/updates, I found this article which seems to add more detail and more confusion to former details...as well as a smidgen of new information.

From The San Gabriel Valley Tribune...
Purportedly quoting chief deputy medical examiner Armando Chavez...

...He'd fallen off the edge of a mountain or cliff...

Furthermore, Chavez is reported to have said...

...The length of time before Herdman was found makes it impossible to pinpoint when the fall happened...
The condition of the body just indicates that he's been dead for days...
We don't know if it was the day the search began or the day he became separated from his friend, that's something we can't be certain...
There's no information or anything to make us believe that it was anything other than accidental...

The article goes on to say that the examiner's office "plans to release a detailed report on the death in the next 30 days."

----------------------------

Questions have arisen as to 'why Byars didn't hear a scream, or calls for help, etc..."...
I have wondered why Byars didn't hear Herdman calling for Duke...
That should have been something he would/might have heard throughout the first night...if Herdman had survived that long.

Anyway - still, so many questions.

a reply to: WanDash

something else I thought of...when Byers couldn't find him for a while, it was night, wouldn't he have had some kind of light with him.....it had to be really really dark out in the middle of nowhere........or did he light a small fire?? (I know we are in a drought so would have to be really careful with a fire).

wouldn't herdman have seen the light or campfire

Question: Would you camp in that location for a million dollars, by yourself, for 1 night?

a reply to: diggindirt

A human body does not decompose to bone in a matter of days. That's BS and goes against common sense. Do you have any science backing that up? I'd like to see the forensics on that. I've seen roadkill sit on the pavement baking in the sun for a while before it was picked up or before you couldn't tell what it even was. If Herdman's body was as badly decomposed as it sounds it sat there for well over a week. He was missing on the 13th according to Byars. His body was found on Friday the 27th. That's two whole weeks. Are you familiar with Southern California climate? The area where Herdman's body was found is not only surrounded by brush but is an arid almost desert like environment. It's not like a body decomposing in a forest. The climate is very sunny and dry during the day and cool at night.

Im wondering if there any signs of predation on the body. That would tell us a lot. How bad was his skull damaged? There would probably be a difference between being pushed off or falling off a cliff alive and the body being throw or rolled off the cliff.

Did the investigators and SAR look for signs above on the ridge from which he might have fallen? I mean it's amazing to me when someone dies in society i.e. cities, homes, cars, there is a huge forensic team that goes in colleting everything from hair to blood, taking pictures of the body, careful not to disturb anything. Yet someone dies in the wilderness nothing is done.

The forensics should include detail of which bones were broken and how bad. You don't need to see his feet. Also was his neck broken? So many questions the general public will never be privy to. I hope his wife and family are asking the right questions.

a reply to: YogaGinns

In many articles it was stated Byars after meeting the fishermen went on to get into HIS truck and drive off to the Sheriff's office. Convenient that his truck was the one they dropped off at the end and Herdman's at the beginning.

a reply to: research100
I recall much earlier in this thread that it was a virtual (99%) full moon the evening that Herdman is reported to have disappeared.
He knew the area, to some extent. I do not see him, with normal cognitive faculties operating normally failing to remember that the camp was at/beside the creek...and that...the creek would be down-slope from everywhere-else in the vicinity.
If you're wondering if "Byars" had a light/flashlight with him...I don't know. One would think anyone moving away from the camp's fire would take one...unless the moonlight was exceptionally luminous that night... (?)