Capitalism doesn't and IS NOT working, it's destructive and creatives poor social incentives

a reply to: Xtrozero

i knew you were going to do that

thats why i specifically said AND
those figures are adjusted for inflation only and do not take into account cost of living which has again.... absolutely skyrocketed

originally posted by: sirhumperdink
a reply to: Xtrozero

i knew you were going to do that

thats why i specifically said AND
those figures are adjusted for inflation only and do not take into account cost of living which has again.... absolutely skyrocketed

And if you read my whole post you would see I went on to say that the last 6 years under Obama is to blame for the cost and we can not just raise minimum wage based on a short duration increase, though it does suck I agree. If that was the case then we would have needed to raise 1981 to 12 bucks an hour then lower it a few years later to 4.50 an hour. I do agree it needs to be raised to 10 bucks per hour. 20 would close 80% of all small businesses, so watch Seattle closely with their new 15 per hour minimum and see the affects that has.

So lets get back to the evil corporations, the one I work for has about 130k employees and no one makes under 25 per hour, so I'm not sure where the evil is? I'm assuming retail, food services and any customer service type jobs...hint...don't do any of those...

I'm in the same boat, I have about 40% less spending power today than I did in 2008.

a reply to: Xtrozero

there are not nearly enough high or even decent paying jobs to support the population (about 1/4 of all private sector jobs pay less than $10/hr)
what do you think would happen if everyone who worked minimum wage was instead competing for skilled jobs? the job markets pretty bad now as it is what happens when there are millions or tens of millions of people that were working for minimum wage or close to it all trying to grab those same few jobs
maybe you think more companies will just spring and offer jobs or people can start their own business
and do what? people only need so many things
for example most people dont go out and buy 100 pairs of shoes or a dozen computers just because they can
demand doesnt magically sky rocket just because there are more people capable of working skilled jobs?


if you think its possible everyone can just work a little harder to fill higher paying jobs that dont exist youre living in a fantasy land
(sure there might be a few here and there but i defy you to try telling me there are even close to enough to support all the people that could potentially fill them)

im not saying raise the minimum wage to 20/hr i know that cant be done in most areas at the moment..... what i am saying is you cant say asking for a higher wage is unfair because they arent doing enough work when in the past those very same jobs would allow you to purchase a whole lot more
again the work isnt worth any less than it used to be but the reality is not what it used to be



ps youre not fooling anyone on average cost of living has been going up at an exponential rate for decades if not longer so of course it has increased more recently
(but yeah obama probably sucks just as much as the last guy)

originally posted by: Not Authorized
a reply to: NavyDoc

Hi Navy.

Really. Gitmo sounds like a regular vacation spot according to this website below. You are indeed just a regular comedian!

thejusticecampaign.org...

The memos are particularly fascinating. Especially the terminology used within them, "Waterboarding". I thought it was your opinion that Gitmo is a great place.. or, shall I quote you? "They get decent care". Decent care after what? After an extended torture, er, waterboarding session? Why are they there, and not given a Trial?

Please note, this really is the end of our conversation. I will not waste anymore time. I could have spent time replying to rabbit. You offer me nothing but doublespeak and absurdities. You have no solutions to our future problems.

See, I'd even venture to say, you do not even know what 3d printing is. Nor, that you have given much thought, that mass large industrialization of that will, given time, effectively make almost every job obsolete. You are going to be able to print out androids, that will service the replication. That's what Capitalistic "profit" will demand. Reduce labor overhead, at any cost. What are you going to do with all those jobless people? How is "capitalism" going to help then when no one can find a job?

Hint: Capitalism didn't make the United States great. Liberty did. Our technology has outgrown it. Let it go, and restore our greatness. Otherwise, you will walk, right into Orwell's 1984 world, with your eyes wide open. The signs of where we are going, are all around you.

The OP is absolutely right.

LOL. This is what, the 3rd or fourth time you've "ended" our conversation?



I know and love the idea of 3d printing. When it progresses to Star Trek replicator levels you might have the ability to talk about not needing to work and the ushering in of the communist ideal but that is currently the realm of science fiction. Technology does not eliminate jobs, it just changes what jobs are needed. Who maintains the replicators? Designs the androids? Gets the raw materials? There are infinite variables. Regardless, it currently is a fantasy in your mind.

Capitalism and free markets are part of liberty. You cannot be free unless you are economically free. Capitalism did make liberty great and your communist dream is what 1984 was about. Obviously you didn't understand it. Socialism will give us 1984. And yes, we are going that way because of "fellow travelers" like yourself who want to push us steadily into a socialist nightmare.

a reply to: freakwars

In Central America, the left promised to end serfdom. And they did, though they were murdered for it. Central America is now capitalist, for all the faults of that system. Capitalist and full of poverty.

Apparently you know nothing of Costa Rica. Capitalism has worked well for them. They are not near as poor a country as they were 40-50 years ago. They actually have a growing middle class now. They value education more than we do here in the US and obviously more than any of the other less successful countries in Central America. Back in the 60s it was a component of their national pride that they had more teachers than police and soldiers combined.

Oh, and as far as "ending serfdom" lol. Those countries that "ended serfdom" as you put it are the poorest and most miserable countries to visit or live in of all of them. At least, as I interpret your words.

originally posted by: sirhumperdink

if you think its possible everyone can just work a little harder to fill higher paying jobs that dont exist youre living in a fantasy land
(sure there might be a few here and there but i defy you to try telling me there are even close to enough to support all the people that could potentially fill them)

50% hardly puts in effort to improve, so all you need to be is better than 50% of the working force, but it takes time and effort. I ate my share of Mac and Cheese and ramen soup in my 20s.

again the work isnt worth any less than it used to be but the reality is not what it used to be

I agree, raise minimum to 10 dollars and it will be the best it has ever been in comparison to any other year since 1955.

ps youre not fooling anyone on average cost of living has been going up at an exponential rate for decades if not longer so of course it has increased more recently
(but yeah obama probably sucks just as much as the last guy)

I'm a little bit bullet proof no mater who is in office, but I can tell you that from 2000 to 2008 I made about 1/2 what I make now and I had more buying power than I do today.

Bush sure didn't help but every president has walked into a recession, and Ragan's was really bad but in all cases they had it under control within 1 1/2 years, except for Obama who is pushing 6 plus. Bad is bad...

DB damn Dubai Internet sucks ...

DB

a reply to: Semicollegiate

If I lived in the Soviet Union in the 1960s I could say that the Soviet government made everything around me while capitalism made nothing. That would not justify the Soviet government any more than your "argument" supports capitalism.

A system can't create goods when that system doesn't exist.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Considering that the baboon reaches adulthood at 8 years old, and the behavioral pattern remained non-aggressive 20 years later, I'd say it's likely that the difference in socialization resulted in different behavior.

originally posted by: ArchPlayer
a reply to: bbracken677

Just an FYI about all this minimum wage smoke and illusion:

40 or 50 years ago, no one (NO ONE) HAD to considered jobs at McDonalds because they could go to factories and be trained laborers. NO ONE tried to flip burgers for a living as a career choice because at 17 or 18 you could go to Ma Bell and be a telephone operator. NO ONE expected to be able to support a family working at McDonalds operating the cash register because they could make due straight out of high school anywhere from being a typist to a bank teller to a laborer in a factory. Its important to expect people to have prevailing wage jobs so like their grandparents in the 60s ad 70s they can make enough to support themselves and the economy without going into debt, or did you forget that part?

Not at all, and I would agree with virtually all of the above. The problem with debt comes into play when it becomes part of our culture: Part of the "American Way". I subscribe to the Dave Ramsey philosphy and have been debt free since 2001. You do not HAVE to go into debt. You choose to.

I am glad you do see a significant difference in opportunities in a post technological society. Far fewer these days, no doubt is an UNDERSTATEMENT. Corporations NEED to be demonized because they benefit from the lobbyism and corportism they infected within the American Congress to outsource and replace those laborers they would otherwise have had to train with on the job skills 30-40 years ago with immigrants working for peanuts and computers/robots. Perhaps if the corporations PAID THEIR FAIR SHARE OF TAX considering their CEOs are billionaires and this piece of # government penalized them for doing business here when they ship jobs overseas we wouldn't have these problems. Perhaps if Bush Sr. and Jr. and Clinton hadn't set up a whammy like NAFTA, NWO talks, and reversing Glass Stegall we wouldn't have an outsourcing problem, now would we?

Why throw out the baby with the bathwater? Why not eliminate lobbying? Why not fix the system instead of pushing good paying jobs overseas? Corporations are not inherently evil. Corporations provide jobs and normally operate within the law. When they do not, we do not need oversight, we need to apply penalties that are true penalties. We should imprison those responsible. We have seen some of this in the last 15 years or so, but it is the law and the application of law that is to blame. We need those jobs...I, in no way, suggest that we should allow corporations to operate without any regulation whatsoever. Common sense must prevail.

But yeah. Evil corporations yadda yadda ...hey should be pittied, isn't that right! All the manufacturing jobs are going overseas!! Let's not do a damn thing to hold them or this piece of # Congress accountable.

Work ethic? People still have work ethic. It's the lack of ON THE JOB TRAINING that is the problem. It's the ridiculous third party hiring temp services that IS THE PROBLEM. It's the ridiculous criteria of 5-9 years of work experience for entry to mid level jobs that is the problem. How the hell are college students supposed to find work outside of FREE INTERNSHIPS when the bar is set higher than what can be met so the evil corporation can set up free trade zones and import labor and house them (like what Bank of America did in Charlotte NC). The corporation can't be bothered in investing in their labor pool born in the country BUT people are supposed to sell their souls for 7.75/hr. GIVE ME A #ING BREAK DUDE. I have a PHD and have been out of work, can't even go back and teach and when I did teach I made less than 10 an hour and for the aggrivation I had to put up with without bennies it FELT LIKE somebody stole my soul and you know what they didn't pay me enough to be BOTHERED. They don't pay me enough to care, or anyone else. What's that on the job training again? People now have to count on McDonalds because they are hiring the people without degrees that they can take advantage of. Trust me, no fast food joint is hiring college educated people, in fact its a blackball policy.

The particular individual responsible for making the "I will not sell my soul for $10/hr was 18 years old, spent half his day surfing the web instead of working and when confronted that was his reply. Suffice to say, he is no longer employed.
As far as work ethic? Sure, some do, but so many of today's youth do not know the meaning of the word. They think that with no skills, no experience that they should be hired on in positions of responsibility that require both. When told they will have to work their way up, that just angers them. Bear in mind, I am not talking about all youth, but a significantly larger portion than when I was in my late teens, early twenties. When I started on the bottom rung, I knew I had to excel to prove myself worth of promotion. So many today will not make an effort to excel. Hell, I have guys coming in dressed in sagging pants and Oakland Raiders jackets for an interview. Really?? WTF?

Get over yourself.

This isn't about me. It's about an economy that has lost 33% of it's manufacturing jobs since 1979. This is about ignorant politicians playing to ignorant constituents making claims about "taxing companies that move jobs overseas". How effing ignorant is that? (Obama, 2008 prior to election).

LOL (all the above is absolute truth. I have seen people, heard people do and say all the things above)

Alrighty then

Sorry about the PhD and not being able to find a good job. Sign of the times. We have problems with our economy and our leaders cannot seem to bring themselves to have a true and open discussion on the subject, instead they rely on soundbites and empty promises. I am 60 years old..last time I had to find a job no one would speak to me even though I have a ton of experience, knowledge and training. There is age discrimination and the way around it is to just not bother to interview someone my age. What can I do? Not much...I kept looking and finally got this gig which is perfect for me, for someone like me who is semi-retired and would prefer to stay that way.

Selling our souls? Yep..or rather, we prostitute ourselves in exchange for pay. Makes sense to work hard, do what is needed and prostitute ourselves to the highest bidder. No? LOL

We need a quasi capitalist-socialist society but one that doesn't allow mega giant companies. In fact just end the stock market..

a reply to: ArchPlayer

1. Voting doesn't mean #. It never has meant #. Voting is a nice way of feeling like you're doing something but not.

I'd love to introduce you to a few folks I know currently holding public office in my state at both local and state levels. Tell them how voting is a fools game and they rigged their victories. Just don't be offended by the uncontrolled laughter and sadly patient looks after that.

2. Thanks to the SC, corporations are LEGAL PERSONS and by definition capable of EVIL.

And thank God for it too. If Citizen United hadn't held we'd have a 100% true blue liberal nation by now with conservatives lucky to qualify to take the Capital TOUR, let alone win a damn thing for public office in this nation again. Period. If you research this topic..vs. taking the MSM and hyperbole at face value...you'll find organized labor is damn near dollar for dollar in the running for matching corporate money to candidates on a person by person basis on the national level. Citizens United would have removed HALF a bad situation leaving a WHOLE nightmare. Thank GOD they didn't rule differently.

Again, the electorial college has final say on who is POTUS, not the people.

If we lose the electoral college, it'll mean states in the middle of the nation or states without a large population need not even bother getting out of bed on Election Tuesday. Not for President, anyway. Popular majority rules voting on the nation level means our major cities will likely choose our President from that point forward. If numbers rule, then cities carry the numbers in pure math ..and THAT is WHY we have the electoral system dating back to the very start.

originally posted by: freakwars
a reply to: Semicollegiate

If I lived in the Soviet Union in the 1960s I could say that the Soviet government made everything around me while capitalism made nothing. That would not justify the Soviet government any more than your "argument" supports capitalism.

A system can't create goods when that system doesn't exist.

The USSR had, possibly due to lack of other mental activity, the most intelligent planners in the world. The best chess players in the history of chess, for sure.

Socialism didn't work there, how can it work anywhere else?

a reply to: Semicollegiate

1. USSR was state-capitalist, not socialist. The workers had no control over the means of production, it was owned "privately" by the state.

2. My point was that your argument was terrible. Socialism cannot produce goods when socialism does not exist. I cannot choose to simply not consume, and thus must use capitalist products.

originally posted by: freakwars
a reply to: Semicollegiate

1. USSR was state-capitalist, not socialist. The workers had no control over the means of production, it was owned "privately" by the state.

2. My point was that your argument was terrible. Socialism cannot produce goods when socialism does not exist. I cannot choose to simply not consume, and thus must use capitalist products.

For the fifth time,

Why hasn't socialism simply begun to build factories in the free countries of the world?

For the first time explicitly,

If socialism is not government, why can't socialists simply use the capital-stock method of corporate ownership and start being socialists?

originally posted by: freakwars


Considering that the baboon reaches adulthood at 8 years old, and the behavioral pattern remained non-aggressive 20 years later, I'd say it's likely that the difference in socialization resulted in different behavior.

You didn't answer my other question, what happens when another group invades their area? In human terms we called that rape, pillage and plunder.

Also, really? You think just because behavioral change last 20 years it is a solid fix, trumping evolution, like bam!

I guess we just need to kill the 6 billion aggressive humans and then start over.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

The USSR had, possibly due to lack of other mental activity, the most intelligent planners in the world. The best chess players in the history of chess, for sure.

Socialism didn't work there, how can it work anywhere else?

Look at China too, 800 million living on about 40 bucks a month. Total failure, and they know it. That is why they are slowly changing.

a reply to: freakwars

1. USSR was state-capitalist, not socialist. The workers had no control over the means of production, it was owned "privately" by the state.

Really? So that whole "The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" thing was just an accident at the printing office? Damn.. I'll bet that poor guy got a harsh retirement. Imagine..accidentally naming a capitalist country as a communist one.

Of course the Communist Party of the Soviet Union might also have REALLY taken exception to an American terming them as Capitalist anything...but then, we're not going by history here anymore..are we? Kinda making our own interpretations as we go..huh?

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

For the fifth time,

Why hasn't socialism simply begun to build factories in the free countries of the world?

For the first time explicitly,

If socialism is not government, why can't socialists simply use the capital-stock method of corporate ownership and start being socialists?

That is the million dollar question, pardon my pun, why doesn't the better system just over take all the others due to sheer superiority?

It seems no one has actually even started yet since every system remotely call socialism is determined not to be, so we are dealing with an imaginary creature, talked about but never actually been seen. Maybe the big foots are socialists.

I call this a pipe dream...or an ant colony, nothing that humans can achieve.