Capitalism doesn't and IS NOT working, it's destructive and creatives poor social incentives

a reply to: Semicollegiate

Sir, I have explicitly provided my definition of capitalism at least a half dozen times in this thread, and you have steadfastly ignored me.

As I say again, capitalism is a system in which the means of mass production are owned privately. Contrast this with feudalism where everything is ultimately owned by the nobility, or socialism where the means are owned by the association of the producers.

I have provided definitions multiple times in this discussion, while you seem to brush over them and say "no, capitalism is GOOD things, not BAD things. idiot" Because that is what your definition is.

a reply to: xuenchen

No. the goal is prevent any kind of regulation, including the regulation by those little despots we call capitalists.

The only regulation would be the kind that you naturally have in any society, regulation by ones neighbors.

a reply to: freakwars
Ah...communism: refuge of the lazy, led by the corrupt.

In Central America the communist movement (back in the 60s) subsisted of leaders promising the poor that they would share in the wealth of the rich. Central America, at the time, was a 2 class society. The rich, and the poor. No middle class at all. So the pull of instant gain was strong for some (imagine in the US the offering of something for nothing...oh, yeah, we have that already and it's a disaster).

The promise of gain without earning it enticed some, while others recognized what a load of crap it was.

Communism will never work. There is no reward for hard work, no incentive to improve yourself (in it's purest form, but then we all know how the real world worked: some were more equal then others). The promise of full and total equality is a noble one, but not possible in the real world. The basic problem being that all are not equal. All do not have equal abilities, equal intelligence, equal drive, equal incentive. In a system that promises equality how does inequality work? If it does not promise equality, then it is not communism in it's purest form, no?

So you wind up with a system that is doomed to disappoint those who are appealed to the most and the backbone of any communist movement: the Proletariat. How is any system that, by definition, will not reward those who possess extra abilities, drive etc (or worse, do reward them leaving those who are less than equal behind) supposed to provide any incentive to be above average in anything?

It seems that communism, in it's purest form, cannot truly exist and instead we have the perverted forms we have seen in the real world. Perverted forms that are doomed to fail and fairly quickly at that. Only a totalitarian govt can maintain the illusion of communism for any length of time, otherwise the failure to provide a true equalitarian society that actually works will not have the support of the masses. Masses who will inevitably ask the question: Where is this utopian society we were promised?

One could say that the same reason that capitalism does not work well is the same reason any other system will not work well.

People.

Greed. Opportunism. Snakes in suits will exist in any society, in any economic system... History has pretty much shown us that beyond any doubt whatsoever.

Ergo: any system that depends on humans to all act with benevolence will be far, far from perfect. So if you start off with something that is designed to be utopian and is promoted as such, failure will be swift and sure. If you say, utopian is a goal...is that also not the goal of any society, of any economic system?

originally posted by: freakwars
a reply to: xuenchen

No. the goal is prevent any kind of regulation, including the regulation by those little despots we call capitalists.

The only regulation would be the kind that you naturally have in any society, regulation by ones neighbors.

Well that sounds more like a Conservative Libertarian platform.

Can you point to any genuine verifiable quotes from Marx about *ANY* of your views?

a reply to: bbracken677

In Central America, the left promised to end serfdom. And they did, though they were murdered for it. Central America is now capitalist, for all the faults of that system. Capitalist and full of poverty.

Middle class is a meaningless buzz term which can refer to anything and anyone.

We are rapidly approaching the point where inequality does not even serve a function. The rate of population increase has begun a slow decline, while production is continuing to increase on the average. The rate of production of vital goods massively outpaces the amount needed, or even consumed.

There are the rewards which a number of studies have identified as being the primary motivator, even above money (once they have enough money to not die, ofc.). These being; accolades, mastering new skills, self-direction, a purpose. Putting these motivations first, rather than essentially holding a gun to the employees head, not only produces happier employees and at least equal production, it produces more creative ideas than exist in places that don't do these kind of things. The more unpleasant jobs can easily be automated, or done with the same motivation that drives you to prevent your house from falling down around you.

I don't understand your point in mentioning that people are not all identical.

The science shows that you're wrong, it's done so since 1949, when Dr.Harlow of the U of Wisconsin showed monkeys would solve puzzles more quickly if they were not rewarded.

a reply to: xuenchen

Marx specifically says two things about communism. the first, "Communism is for us not a stable state which is to be established, an ideal to which reality will have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from premises now in existence"

the second, "He is a hunter, a fisherman, a herdsman, or a critical critic, and must remain so if he does not want to lose his means of livelihood; while in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic."

Most of what I describe was theorized by other theorists than Marx. Marx spent virtually all of his time writing about capitalism, not communism. Ironically, the man famous for "inventing" communism died before finishing the book in which he was to describe communism, Capital vol. 3.

The primary theorist I draw on is more Piotr Kropotkin. You can read his best book, The Conquest of Bread here.

[originally posted by: freakwars
a reply to: bbracken677

In Central America, the left promised to end serfdom. And they did, though they were murdered for it. Central America is now capitalist, for all the faults of that system. Capitalist and full of poverty.

I lived 5 years in Costa Rica, during the 60s. I visited Nicaragua on a couple of occasions. Are you going to tell me that the "lefties" flew black flags in front of their homes instead of the communists? I know what was going on. I was there. I spent most of my time in the southwest of Costa Rica, inland from a small port city named Golfito. Please do not tell me what I saw, what I heard and what I experienced.

Middle class is a meaningless buzz term which can refer to anything and anyone.

Perhaps to you, but in Costa Rica in the 60s you were either dirt poor, or you were a member of the upper crust. Ergo: 2 class system lacking anything in the middle. You do understand middle, right? Lacking?
The common family had 2 pictures in their homes. (Paintings, representations) One was of Jesus Christ, the other was JFK. Yep...our JFK. Know why? Because when he arrived on his tour of Central America he went out and shook hands with the common man...something absolutely unheard of.

We are rapidly approaching the point where inequality does not even serve a function. The rate of population increase has begun a slow decline, while production is continuing to increase on the average. The rate of production of vital goods massively outpaces the amount needed, or even consumed.

hmm..truly? Do you have a source to show that? I am not aware of that, but would be happy to learn something new.

There are the rewards which a number of studies have identified as being the primary motivator, even above money (once they have enough money to not die, ofc.). These being; accolades, mastering new skills, self-direction, a purpose. Putting these motivations first, rather than essentially holding a gun to the employees head, not only produces happier employees and at least equal production, it produces more creative ideas than exist in places that don't do these kind of things. The more unpleasant jobs can easily be automated, or done with the same motivation that drives you to prevent your house from falling down around you.

Yeah, I have seen a couple of those. In most respects they are true for middle income and up. For those on the bottom rung of society who do not have a stable home, food on the table etc etc they are meaningless. Try those incentives with McDonalds employees or Wal-Mart employees.

I don't understand your point in mentioning that people are not all identical.

I did not say identical, I said equal. Everyone is not equal in abilities, intelligence etc etc...just read what I wrote.

The science shows that you're wrong, it's done so since 1949, when Dr.Harlow of the U of Wisconsin showed monkeys would solve puzzles more quickly if they were not rewarded.

Yeaaah..this is why communism has worked so well. This is why we have such a large portion of the population that have no drive to succeed and would rather draw a pittance from the govt rather than work to support themselves and their families. This is why those same individuals cannot be bothered to enter the various training programs the govt offers to better themselves. This is why so many would rather pay $25/month for a craphole apt and all utilities paid (curtesy of HUD) and sit on their duff drawing $650/month from SSI instead of actually doing something to better themselves.

So...come again?

Money is merely a piece of paper that people slave and scheme over, all day, every day. All money has done is make people crazy. Money isn't evil though - in fact, it has NO meaning at all other than the value people assign to it. It is the belief that continues the illusion.

There was an episode of Star Trek where Picard is talking about money and says "We don't work for money, we work to better ourselves and ALL of mankind." or something to that effect. Now if one had a replicator (3-D printers perhaps?) that could make ANY thing, NO ONE would work for money. They would instead be free to pursue their life's dreams, be it creating, learning, teaching or studying. Picture a world without monetary "rewards". The people creating music would do it solely for the love of it. The people playing sports would do it solely for the love of it. The people making scientific discoveries would do it solely for the love of it. If we acknowledged that EVERY HUMAN BEING HAS INHERENT GIFTS, AND MATTERS IN AND OF THEMSELVES, then we would evolve to a much higher level because of this freedom to pursue that which interests us. Our current paradigm is limiting for everyone's possibilities of expansion, including the wealthy.

How do we know they don't already have replicating machines now? Where does all of the hamburger meat come from? Cow pastures are down 80 percent in a rough visual estimate, from years past. YET, people eat out more than ever before. Where do the pharmaceutical drugs REALLY come from? I am supposed to believe that benzodiazepine comes from Valerian root and all opiates from poppy plants in Afghanistan. But how does one really know that? These pharmaceutical plants are guarded under lock and key just like nuclear reactors or area 51. People have mentioned many times on ATS, how technology is YEARS ahead of what we, the masses are told about. If you give people replicators you destroy the whole system as it has been. And this is necessary to evolve and to respect ourselves as a species.

This is a stress based nor-epinephrine society. A vicious cycle of stress which is temporarily alleviated by vices. People have addictions to sex, drugs, shopping, gambling, internet, eating, TV/movies/games. Our bodies are stuck in a constant state of fight or flight, with people looking at their smart phones every 5 minutes for Facebook/Twitter updates. Saying "oh my God" in either excitement or embarrassment. Without money there IS no control, no millions of moving mouths on TV every day doing the same song and dance, trying to sell us items we don't truly need and lying to us about political and world events.

There would be no point to money or gold because anyone with a replicator could make it. So then life would simply be about LIVING. Once the stress and slavery of work for money ended, people would begin examining their lives through a microscope. Analyzing all their actions, questioning why they do everything they do, and what really is life and the meaning of it? Why do I like this or that?

The people that control this planet know how the human psyche works. And, ironically, they are slaves to their egos as much as the masses are. The greed for money, the lust for power and sex, the lust for recognition that is controlled by their egos. Human traits that may never go away - but that make us vulnerable & easy for the hidden hand to manipulate and control. They prey on your feelings of unworthiness, and feeling like you never have enough. This "entitlement" system is bs, in my opinion, and only seeks to benefit those controlling the system. YOU were worthy the minute you were born, and it is only the SYSTEM which has you convinced otherwise.

People talk of capitalism, socialism, communism etc. ad nauseum. Forget those. What if there were no going back? What if there were no "isms" anymore? We could invent something new, which would be the evolved way forward as there is nothing TRIED AND TRUE to this date. Are we so unintelligent that we are incapable of building a better system for all? These are the questions we must ask ourselves. Without change, this world will continue to be a playpen for the powers that be. They will continue to reap their rewards from the monetary system they created to part you from your time, your money, YOUR LIFE - whilst you are enslaved to the items and fads they create for their own amusement of watching you scramble to "keep up with the game".

Most people will never even realise that they've spent their entire lives being modern slaves, instead of thinking about what the actual point to life is, on this planet. Do all of the politics and gadgetry TRULY make life worth living? Do your family, loved ones and children matter more?

Make no mistake - misery knows both ends of the spectrum - the poor are miserable from working too hard for too little in return. The rich hoard the wealth, yet deep down they know it is not fulfilling, and so they drown their misery in "stuff" and the accumulation of even more money (as if it means something). In a system where nobody is truly happy, we must ask ourselves why it continues, when we COULD create a better life for all, one that is meaningful, and fulfills us on levels we never knew existed.

originally posted by: EC666
"Here's Albert Einstein, a communist, on capitalism (from his paper "Why Socialism?"):"

You completely discredit the rest of your post after claiming Einstein was a communist. He supported socialism but chose to live in America under freedom. Never was he a communist. And to claim capitalism is economic anarchy and the source of real evil, further discredits you concept of reality. You are a seriously misguided individual.

a reply to: freakwars

I have provided definitions multiple times in this discussion, while you seem to brush over them and say "no, capitalism is GOOD things, not BAD things. idiot" Because that is what your definition is.

Capitalism made everything in your life, from the internet and the grocery store to the alphabet.

Socialism made nothing.

You can tell me capitalism doesn't work when we have enforced all anti-trust and monopoly laws. Had we enforced those laws companies like Google, Apple, Microsoft, At&t, etc wouldn't be allowed to be as big as they are and they wouldn't dominate their markets. They also wouldn't have the huge budgets they allocate for lobbying the government. True capitalism is the most free and most fair system possible. Unfortunately we haven't had that kind of capitalism in America. I wish we did..

a reply to: NavyDoc

Hi Navy.

Really. Gitmo sounds like a regular vacation spot according to this website below. You are indeed just a regular comedian!

thejusticecampaign.org...

The memos are particularly fascinating. Especially the terminology used within them, "Waterboarding". I thought it was your opinion that Gitmo is a great place.. or, shall I quote you? "They get decent care". Decent care after what? After an extended torture, er, waterboarding session? Why are they there, and not given a Trial?

Please note, this really is the end of our conversation. I will not waste anymore time. I could have spent time replying to rabbit. You offer me nothing but doublespeak and absurdities. You have no solutions to our future problems.

See, I'd even venture to say, you do not even know what 3d printing is. Nor, that you have given much thought, that mass large industrialization of that will, given time, effectively make almost every job obsolete. You are going to be able to print out androids, that will service the replication. That's what Capitalistic "profit" will demand. Reduce labor overhead, at any cost. What are you going to do with all those jobless people? How is "capitalism" going to help then when no one can find a job?

Hint: Capitalism didn't make the United States great. Liberty did. Our technology has outgrown it. Let it go, and restore our greatness. Otherwise, you will walk, right into Orwell's 1984 world, with your eyes wide open. The signs of where we are going, are all around you.

The OP is absolutely right.

Just realized that my last post was a wall of text (lol), so this one will be short and sweet.

Does anyone find it odd that money is a tool which enables your "freedom" in this current society we have - but yet we must work to BE "free"?

(rhetorical question, meant as something to ponder)


Definition of FREEDOM
1
: the quality or state of being free: as
a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action
b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : independence

originally posted by: freakwars


I don't know about you but I don't steal and murder.

For these to be human nature, the vast majority of the human race would have to be engaged in these activities. If that were true, the capitalist society that we have constructed would collapse.

I disagree, I would say the vast majority of society steals at some level and they would also kill under the right situations. Humans are not a very nice species....

We are not the Bonobos that may have had a million years to develop into a non-aggressive species due to the environment. My point is we need to work very hard to be non-aggressive, and not the other way around.

It created a troop with very low levels of aggression and very low levels of social hierarchy. And this held true when Sapolsky came back to study them 20 years later. New members of the troop who weren't born into it found that their ordinary baboon behavior wouldn't be tolerated.

A single event created an entirely different social dynamic, because it created a troop that was socialized differently

When you say not tolerated what happened when new true alpha males reached maturity? As quickly as it came it can go. Low levels of aggression is not the norm for our species, or we would not be here. To say we can reach that state, I agree, but not anytime soon. Also we are very pack oriented, put family first over others, always part of social groups, what happens when another baboon troop invades their area?

a reply to: bbracken677

Just an FYI about all this minimum wage smoke and illusion:

40 or 50 years ago, no one (NO ONE) HAD to considered jobs at McDonalds because they could go to factories and be trained laborers. NO ONE tried to flip burgers for a living as a career choice because at 17 or 18 you could go to Ma Bell and be a telephone operator. NO ONE expected to be able to support a family working at McDonalds operating the cash register because they could make due straight out of high school anywhere from being a typist to a bank teller to a laborer in a factory. Its important to expect people to have prevailing wage jobs so like their grandparents in the 60s ad 70s they can make enough to support themselves and the economy without going into debt, or did you forget that part?

I am glad you do see a significant difference in opportunities in a post technological society. Far fewer these days, no doubt is an UNDERSTATEMENT. Corporations NEED to be demonized because they benefit from the lobbyism and corportism they infected within the American Congress to outsource and replace those laborers they would otherwise have had to train with on the job skills 30-40 years ago with immigrants working for peanuts and computers/robots. Perhaps if the corporations PAID THEIR FAIR SHARE OF TAX considering their CEOs are billionaires and this piece of # government penalized them for doing business here when they ship jobs overseas we wouldn't have these problems. Perhaps if Bush Sr. and Jr. and Clinton hadn't set up a whammy like NAFTA, NWO talks, and reversing Glass Stegall we wouldn't have an outsourcing problem, now would we?

But yeah. Evil corporations yadda yadda ...hey should be pittied, isn't that right! All the manufacturing jobs are going overseas!! Let's not do a damn thing to hold them or this piece of # Congress accountable.

Work ethic? People still have work ethic. It's the lack of ON THE JOB TRAINING that is the problem. It's the ridiculous third party hiring temp services that IS THE PROBLEM. It's the ridiculous criteria of 5-9 years of work experience for entry to mid level jobs that is the problem. How the hell are college students supposed to find work outside of FREE INTERNSHIPS when the bar is set higher than what can be met so the evil corporation can set up free trade zones and import labor and house them (like what Bank of America did in Charlotte NC). The corporation can't be bothered in investing in their labor pool born in the country BUT people are supposed to sell their souls for 7.75/hr. GIVE ME A #ING BREAK DUDE. I have a PHD and have been out of work, can't even go back and teach and when I did teach I made less than 10 an hour and for the aggrivation I had to put up with without bennies it FELT LIKE somebody stole my soul and you know what they didn't pay me enough to be BOTHERED. They don't pay me enough to care, or anyone else. What's that on the job training again? People now have to count on McDonalds because they are hiring the people without degrees that they can take advantage of. Trust me, no fast food joint is hiring college educated people, in fact its a blackball policy.

Get over yourself.

LOL (all the above is absolute truth. I have seen people, heard people do and say all the things above)

originally posted by: Not Authorized
a reply to: Xtrozero

You are.

I know that is a great grass roots type ideal, but I hate to tell you that there really isn't true freedom, for we would be a slave to something in the sense you put it.

We have never in our history been at a point that one only needs to work such short hours to survive. Go back not too many years and people worked 16 hours a day to make a living in really nasty, unhealthy conditions that reduced their life spans by decades. There was no such thing as the 40-50 hour work week. Go back a little further and you would spend every waking moment to survive. That is why Sundays were so special, it took a small chunk of that day and let people relax. the other 110+ waking hours that week you were busting you butt to live.

Also, we have never been at a point that you can basically do nothing and still survive. Once again go back a short distance and if you did not work you died...period.

I live 50 miles from my work, since it takes me about an hour to get there my normal work day including driving is about 11 hours. Since it only takes me an hour I have the freedom to live in a very wide range from my work, a luxury we did not see in the resent past. My wife can shop, cook, take care of the house etc in a few hours of the day, not 16 plus hours of the day. Hit the gym, have lunch with her friend etc...not slaving away every waking moment.

My kids can basically be non-productive well into their 20s as they finish up their education, not heading to the field or factory by the age of twelve. At age 14 my oldest is thinking about high school, heading on a DC trip and planning to get in better shape this summer for sports next year... hell of a hard life I agree...

I can eat pretty much what I want any given day of the week, I can go out to eat any given day of the week too, I can have a half dozen hobbies with the free time I have available, I can take the family to Mexico/generic_warm spot in December for a few weeks and enjoy the summers here, so what is it that I'm a slave too?

Am I a slave to my job, the environment, survival, rich people? I like my job and where I live, and if I didn't my skills/education allows me to basically live anywhere I want to. Survival? please...lol I don't know but if my cigars and scotch runs low that is kind of a survival situation I guess... Rich people? don't care, not my world, but my world is pretty nice and hell of a lot better than any other time in our history.

originally posted by: freakwars
a reply to: Xtrozero

anyone who works for a wage.

"experience demonstrates that there may be a slavery of wages only a little less galling and crushing in its effects than chattel slavery, and that this slavery of wages must go down with the other"
-Frederick Douglass

Compared to what? Working for survival? Growing something so you can maybe barter with your neighbors? Work for food?Money allows you to work for this generic thing and then trade it for anything you desire. I can go buy any kind of food in the world any day of the week because of this money system.

BTW welcome to the industrial age...Don't you think we need some kind of system to put a value to your efforts. If you were a farmer your crop is you effort, so how do we put a value on the generic_worker? What system is there that at the end of the day he has some kind of tangible value in his efforts? If you can think of a better system than income and money please offer it up.

originally posted by: ArchPlayer

But yeah. Evil corporations yadda yadda ...hey should be pittied, isn't that right! All the manufacturing jobs are going overseas!! Let's not do a damn thing to hold them or this piece of # Congress accountable.

People use the term evil, like a corporation is some kind of living thing that makes evil or good decisions, or should have empathy in some way. Corporations are machines that take the path of least resistance to a profit...period...

If we make it cheaper to send jobs overseas then that is what these machines do. If we give them tax breaks then they will take them and reward their management more...it is a machine that we can control, but we don't, and then we call it evil....lol We can drive these machines any direction we want to, I guess sending jobs overseas is really what we want since we vote into office those that do it and we keep voting them back into office....who is to blame here...oh ya the rich, I almost forgot.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Let me clear you up on a few things.

1. Voting doesn't mean #. It never has meant #. Voting is a nice way of feeling like you're doing something but not.
2. Thanks to the SC, corporations are LEGAL PERSONS and by definition capable of EVIL.
3. In reference to my first and second point, neither I nor You voted in the SC. They were CHOSEN.
4. We are all to blame for allowing people like Bush I and II and Clinton to set things in motion that led to deregulation and Glass Stegall. Ross Peroit Tried to warn us all when he ran for POTUS but everybody was so geeked by clinton playing sax on Arsenio that they missed that.

Again, the electorial college has final say on who is POTUS, not the people.