Capitalism doesn't and IS NOT working, it's destructive and creatives poor social incentives

Just an FYI about all this minimum wage smoke and illusion:

40 or 50 years ago, no one (NO ONE) considered jobs at McDonalds to be anything more than temporary and for high school students. NO ONE tried to flip burgers for a living as a career choice. NO ONE expected to be able to support a family working at McDonalds operating the cash register. So why is it so important to expect so now?

I do see a significant difference in opportunities. Far fewer these days, no doubt. Perhaps if we didn't demonize corporations that provide good jobs they wouldn't take those jobs overseas? Perhaps if we didn't tax them to hell they wouldn't take those jobs overseas? Perhaps if we didn't regulate them into virtual bankruptcy they wouldn't take those jobs overseas?

But yeah. evil corporations yadda yadda ...hey! All the manufacturing jobs are going overseas!! Let's tax them as a penalty!! (Actually suggested by Obama during first campaign and idiots lapped it up). Oh...why cant I find a job? Oh, yeah, it's the evil corporation's fault!!

Work ethic? What's a work ethic? Oh yeah, that is what the dinosaurs had. Cant be bothered today. I am not selling my soul for $10/hr. I partied too hard last night, calling in sick. They don't pay me enough to care. What's that work ethic thing again? I am going to wear my urban finest (sagging pants etc) when I apply for a job or have an interview. The Man is keeping me down! What is that work ethic thing? I should be able to raise a family working at McDonalds...

And...to the idiot who suggested that minimum wage from 1960 is equivalent to $20/hr today... BS. Minimum wage would NEVER support you as $20 / hr would today. That is ignorance and stupidity beyond belief.


LOL (all the above is absolute truth. I have seen people, heard people do and say all the things above)

originally posted by: freakwars
a reply to: NavyDoc

the first recognizable computers were invented by a man named Charles Babbage, whose thoughts on political economy were very inspirational to a man named Karl Marx.
Babbage was a scholar, who owned no businesses. Babbage was not a capitalist.

The technologies that followed him were largely produced by governments and only elaborated upon by companies. And of course, these elaborations were rarely made by business owners. Most of the developments in computing that catapulted Apple and Microsoft to the top of the industry were created by relatively low ranking employees of companies like Xerox.

Also, if the "worker's paradise" stifles innovation, free thought, etc. then why did the Soviet Union construct the first electronic ternary computer 20 years before the Americans? As to artistic endeavors, I direct you to the fact that the bulk of the modern movement was inspired by Russian artists immediately after the Revolution. Stalin of course crushed them like he did the rest of the revolutionary forces in Russia.

Nonsense. Art and literature was controlled very much by the state and the unions of writers and artists. Works that were not deemed politically viable or in support of revolutionary paradigm were censured and those artists and writers were not supported. Some of those we now consider the greatest writers of the time were castigated and marginalized by the state organizations. I suggest you read "The Anti-Soviet Soviet" by Vladimir Voinovich where he details the persecution and control and marginalization of artists in the Soviet Union.

The only advances the Soviet Union made technologically are those they could steal from the West and then exploit. If you think the Soviet Union was technologically advanced compared to the West, you delude yourself.

Babbage may have invented the computer as an academic exercise, but it was Capitalism and free market competition that took computers from the realm of the academic to practical and affordable household appliances with an infinite number of applications in daily life.

In the Soviet Union, you'd get in line if you saw one, even if you didn't know what was at the end of because you wouldn't know when and if that good would be available again. Even if you couldn't use it, you could barter it for something someone else waited in line for you could use (OMG! There is capitalism again!). Communism brought shortages and rationing. Capitalism brought us plenty and oranges in Minnesota in January.

originally posted by: freakwars
a reply to: NavyDoc

name one such behavior

Putting precedence of the well being of yourself and family over the collective.
Saving in good times for lean times.
Exchanging goods and services for other goods and services.
Using power and position to get things you wanted.
Theft.
Charity.
Jealousy and working to bring down someone who had more than yourself.
Initiative and working hard to lift yourself up.
Circumventing outlawed things and the law to get or give goods that people wanted even if outlawed.
Murder.
Self sacrifice.

Good and evil, people have been doing the same sorts of things throughout their history regardless of the political and economic framework.

a reply to: bbracken677

Over the last 30 years, adjusted for economic fluctuation, 60% of job losses were the result of obsolescence while only 20% were the result of outsourcing (David Harvey, The Enigma of Capital). They'e not going overseas, they're being automated. Most unskilled jobs are ceasing to exist, meaning that more people need to go to increasingly expensive colleges to get increasingly worthless degrees. These degrees are necessary to get into those jobs that do exist, which are nonetheless less numerous than the ones which do no longer.

In the absence of new product lines that require human labor, this results in a declining rate of profit for the capitalists, and a #ed economy.

you may have seen people act in certain ways, but that is not relevant to a discussion of economics unless you have some stats to back it up as a trend. I know personally when I fake being sick to avoid work it's usually to work on a project in my workshop. I also know that I do the work of three people for minimum wage.

I am not aiming this comment at anyone specific but really need to point this out to those of you who don't really completely get it....

Many jobs did go overseas, but not as many as you think, around half of those jobs are just simply GONE because they were replaced by technology which rendered them un-necessary.

Opportunities are drying up because one guy running a CNC machine along with another technician, and some software which ties directly into accounting and inventory and ordering, which either of those two guys can probably operate as well, has replaced about 5 or maybe even 10 other jobs.

If people are removed from the equation and no longer have any way to earn money, they are effectively removed from the economy or are forced to do more menial and low paying jobs, which once again removes them from the economy or forces them to participate less than they did before.

Which is why we find ourselves here either under or unemployed, going into debt to get an education is a guarantee that you will owe money when you finish school but no guarantee of gainful employment or a job at all.

Is it really in the best interest of society to remove people from the workforce and then force them into debt to go to school with no type of guarantee but a debt that cannot be extinguished no matter what?.

No matter how much you want it, no matter how damned hard you work toward it, not everyone can be a rock star or banker or a lot of those things we all would like to be.

Most Americans are deluded and foolish from the very top to the very bottom, or maybe it's why we have such a huge drug and alcohol problem here, get drunk and pretend it doesn't hurt so much....

The hangover is going to suck for a lot of people, maybe everybody if something doesn't change soon, but then, all we need is another war to distract us from reality and get us to pull together even if we are all pulling together to get absolutely nowhere.

Fast forward...Pray for death and your prayer will assuredly be answered.
Rewind...None of it really means anything.
Now...Waste time waiting to die arguing meaningless points online with strangers who probably are making all this crap they say about themselves up, who you will never meet and in reality probably wouldn't talk to you anyway out here on the street...

Keeps the power company in business though, don't it?.
What a frickin waste of electricity....

a reply to: NavyDoc

Dear NavyDoc.

Interesting.

I already pointed out the United States is Communist. In subsequent threads, I have pointed out the methodology employed is fascist. Not only that, I pointed out our infrastructure shows the same signs dilapidation that the Soviet Union did prior to it's collapse. I did this some pages ago, in this very thread. Either you did not pay attention, or you just wanted to attack my character instead of the content. Which was it Navy? I lean towards the former.

Come now, an elected representative was just quoted on the fact they have "proven" communism works. That means they believe we are already communist.

TLDR version: This means your whole assumption of my point of view, is wrong. It also means what you think you are defending (a constitutional republic), you are not. You defend the elite, and wall street accounts. Both of which are fictitious services, designed to generate profit only to a few, and, are unable to truly evaluate the economy and where we stand. The data is always biased in favor of the elite.

Start here for a darn good overview of where I come from:
www.washingtonsblog.com...

Nor, did I say that "want" is bad. I said greed. I do not believe that want and greed are synonymous. Do you?

Greed is the evil version of want. Want, when done properly, is wholly natural and good, for the entire species. Greed is destructive.

Heaven forbid, one day humanity breaks out of the 40 hour work week slavery and begins to actually treat each other as a brotherhood of man, rather than the enemy. I seem to have read that in the UN Charter somewhere. Oh yeah, the preamble.

You can read that here: www.un.org...

I did laugh at the insect comment. That's funny. Don't people look like insects from drones? I want to treat men like men. My military is saying they want to treat people like non-privileged enemy combatants. Ie, in my view, they view me, you, and anyone else that disagrees with them, are as insects only to ignore and squish on the way to world domination and the Project for a New American Century.

But hey, I have a question for you. If America is Land of the Free, Home of the Brave. Why did we need a Civil Rights movement in the 1960's? Why did it fail?

How it failed? Compare and Contrast: www.ohchr.org...

Are you ready to put away childish thought, and apply real critical thinking skills, or did you want to remain in your brainwashed dystopian view? Trashing on a one man's view, of a better world, where black people could kiss white people on TV because we would move past such childish things when we decide to grow up, is immature at best. Clearly, this view is bad to you. Why?

originally posted by: Not Authorized
a reply to: NavyDoc

Dear NavyDoc.

Interesting.

I already pointed out the United States is Communist. In subsequent threads, I have pointed out they are also fascist. Not only that, I pointed out our infrastructure shows the same signs dilapidation that the Soviet Union did prior to it's collapse. I did this some pages ago, in this very thread. Either you did not pay attention, or you just wanted to attack my character instead of the content. Which was it Navy? I lean towards the former.

Come now, an elected representative was just quoted on the fact they have "proven" communism works. That means they believe we are already communist.

DLDR version: This means your whole assumption of my point of view, is wrong. It also means what you think you are defending (a constitutional republic), you are not. Start here for a darn good overview:
www.washingtonsblog.com...

Nor, did I say that "want" is bad. I said greed. I do not believe that want and greed are synonymous. Do you?

Greed is the evil version of want. Want, when done properly, is wholly natural and good, for the entire species. Greed is destructive.

Heaven forbid, one day humanity breaks out of the 40 hour work week slavery and begins to actually treat each other as a brotherhood of man, rather than the enemy. I seem to have read that in the UN Charter somewhere. Oh yeah, the preamble.

You can read that here: www.un.org...

I did laugh at the insect comment. That's funny. Don't people look like insects from drones? I want to treat men like men. My military is saying they want totreat people like non-privileged enemy combatants. Ie, just more insects to squish on the way to world domination.

But hey, I have a question for you. If America is Land of the Free, Home of the Brave. Why did we need a Civil Rights movement in the 1960's? Why did it fail?

Are you ready to put away childish thought, and apply real critical thinking skills, or did you want to remain in your brainwashed dystopian view? Trashing on a one man's view, of a better world, where black people could kiss white people on TV because we would move past such childish things when we decide to grow up. Clearly, this view is bad to you. Why?

Wow. "Childish thought" just because someone disagrees with you? Of course I am using critical thinking skills--thinking based on study, reading, experience, and facts, not some undergraduate's dream.

The US isn't communist. Certainly we have certain aspects and policies that are trending socialist and fascist--we see people wanting the redistribution of wealth and governmental control of the means of production through taxation and regulation, but we're not anywhere near completely there yet and those who think so certainly do not have a realistic view of the world or the economy.

Most people do confuse "want" with "greed" and those can be very subjective points. You may call someone "greedy" because they don't want to have the products of their labor taxed away to redistribute but I'd suggest that someone who demands such is "greedy." It is very, very, easy to call someone else "greedy." Your definition of "greed" is not what you claim it to be necessarily.

A single elected representative can say whatever they want but that makes it neither true nor consensus. We've has elected representatives worry about Guam tipping over. There are definately idiots in government.

Insects and drones? You definitely like to jump about a bit and make large leaps to connect things. You definitely are a stream of consciousness kind of person. Your military is neither bent on world domination nor wants to treat men like insects. I know that it goes against your preconceived notions, but the US military is populated by professionals and average Joes who get sent to do tough jobs by politicians but are not anyway near the bloodthirsty baby-killing propaganda stereotype. That you believe that demonstrates you know not of what you speak.

I disagree that the civil rights movement failed.

Certainly we remain one of the most free nations on earth, although I would agree that this has eroded over time and much more recently. It is illogical to state that, because principles were not fully followed in the past, that those principles are invalid in the present.

We get it, you seem to think that liberty, freedom, capitalism, free markets, and individualism are evil things and that the US is the great satan and nothing will convince you otherwise. That's cool, Lots of people need to find someone else to blame for their own shortcomings.

That you think that working for things and working to provide for yourself as "slavery" shows that.

The UN Charter? LOL. That group of leftist child molesters with leaders from some of the most barbaric nations and cultures on earth where real slavery exists? That UN? LOL.

I do treat other men as people and part of the brother hood of man, which is why I stand for individual liberty and economic freedom, not collectivism BECASUE people have value and are not just another insect in the hive which is what they are to collectivists. Sure, part of individual liberty and responsibility includes potential to waste your potential but it is also the way to maximize your potential. Regardless, it is the better part of being a human.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Lies. It failed.

www.ohchr.org...

Disprove it did not, with that document. We signed that by the way. Why is it not ratified and ascended? Better check your state department, and the website, on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

You are wasting my time now. I do not want your opinion. I want fact.

Edit: This is another time you attacked my personal character. "We get it". Yeah, right. How many times is "liberty" mentioned in that document I just linked to you?

You took an Oath, to the US Constitution, Article 6. Treaties, are the 2nd supreme rule of the land. What, treaties only apply with their is profit to be made?

originally posted by: BlubberyConspiracy

originally posted by: Xtrozero
I live a great life due to capitalism, why would I want to change that?

2nd

Because you are human and have empathy for others and realize a system that encourages slavery for gain isn't humane.

So who are the slaves in America?

a reply to: Xtrozero

You are.

a reply to: NavyDoc

1. I've actually read that book already, and it deals with Stalin and Stalin's actions, not with the early revolutionary avant-garde I was referring to. They were purged by Stalin when he was #ing over the revolution. I am arguing that communism/socialism is good, not state capitalism which is what Stalin created.

2. Of course the US was ahead of the Soviet Union in science and industry. The Russians were moving from a feudal level of industry and technology to a modern one. The US had something that we call a head start. It wasn't capital that took the computer from the academic to the practical, it was the military and certain workers at Xerox. Capitalists exploited those advances but they had very little to do with their conceptualization and creation.

Capitalism is not trading a good for another good. Capitalism is the private ownership of industry.

Capitalism may bring you oranges but it takes food from the mouths of others.

originally posted by: Not Authorized
a reply to: NavyDoc

Lies. It failed.

www.ohchr.org...

Disprove it did not, with that document. We signed that by the way. Why is it not ratified and ascended?

You are wasting my time now. I do not want your opinion. I want fact.

Nonsense. The UN has between Jack and Squat to do with the US and nothing in it can be allowed to contravene our Constitution. It was not ratified because it was a worthless scrap of leftist claptrap that none of the UN member nations follow. You cannot logically prove a negative. You said that the Civil rights movement failed--you made the statement, prove it.

Getting back to the UN. Please point out our violations of that document. It allows for the death penalty under due process, we have universal educational system, there is no systemic racism--what do you think we violate in such an egregious manner that other member nations do so wonderfully well?

a reply to: Xtrozero

anyone who works for a wage.

"experience demonstrates that there may be a slavery of wages only a little less galling and crushing in its effects than chattel slavery, and that this slavery of wages must go down with the other"
-Frederick Douglass

a reply to: NavyDoc

Article 6:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

I am done with you. You do not even know the Constitution you took an Oath to defend.

PS, Gitmo: Articles 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16 etc etc etc.

Did you want me to continue, and start discussing the Kellogg Briand Pact, and Article 6 of the US Constitution.

a reply to: Not Authorized

US is not communist. The US is a state. It cannot be communist by the definition of communism. The US has classes. It cannot be communist by definition.

originally posted by: freakwars
a reply to: NavyDoc

1. I've actually read that book already, and it deals with Stalin and Stalin's actions, not with the early revolutionary avant-garde I was referring to. They were purged by Stalin when he was #ing over the revolution. I am arguing that communism/socialism is good, not state capitalism which is what Stalin created.

2. Of course the US was ahead of the Soviet Union in science and industry. The Russians were moving from a feudal level of industry and technology to a modern one. The US had something that we call a head start. It wasn't capital that took the computer from the academic to the practical, it was the military and certain workers at Xerox. Capitalists exploited those advances but they had very little to do with their conceptualization and creation.

Capitalism is not trading a good for another good. Capitalism is the private ownership of industry.

Capitalism may bring you oranges but it takes food from the mouths of others.

Nonsense. Even under the early parts of the revolution, those artists who were considered counter revolutionary were exiled or executed. Heck, even revolutionary leaders ended up being "purged" in the glorious worker's paradise. Trotsky really loved his "reward", I'm sure.

Communism and socialism are not good--history has show time and time that they cannot work and that they stifle innovation and economies. The only way European style socialism survives (and that is getting doubtful every day) is because it leaches off the capitalistic side of the house.

The Russian revolution was in 1917 and the US and much of the world was very similar in technology. Whereas in the postwar period, technology boomed in the West, it stagnated in the Soviet Union because communism stifles innovation. Competition creates innovation, not central planning. You are quite incorrect. It was the free market and capitalism that put a powerful personal computer in the hands of every person in the west.

Capitalism comprises a lot of things--ownership of the product of your labor, be the results of that labor a factory or a single piece of fruit. It is the free exchange of goods for services. It is private property and intellectual property rights. It is economic freedom.

originally posted by: Not Authorized
a reply to: NavyDoc

Article 6:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

I am done with you. You do not even know the Constitution you took an Oath to defend.

PS, Gitmo: Articles 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16 etc etc etc.

Did you want me to continue, and start discussing the Kellogg Briand Pact, and Article 6 of the US Constitution.

LOL. I obviously know it better than yourself because it says that all treaties must be ratified which, as you said, this one was not.

I do love how you cherry pick and change subjects away from ones you've been disproven on to new ones. You definitely duck and dodge like a rodeo clown.

You don't prove anything by rattling out a bunch of numbers. State exactly how each one was violated and what action was taken that violated each one and we can discuss how wrong you are or not.

a reply to: Not Authorized

Perhaps we need to step back a moment and lay out, like starting from scratch, just what you define as Communism, Socialism and Capitalism.

To state the United States is CURRENTLY communist is either profoundly ignorant bordering on truly epic, or we're working off radically different definitions of what I would have thought carried internationally accepted guidelines to be defined?

I'll hold comment until you'd clarified where we're at here for how Communism is defined as the U.S. is somehow called that today. (extremely confused on THAT conclusion)

originally posted by: sirhumperdink
a reply to: Xtrozero

adjusted for inflation AND cost of living
minimum wage in the mid to late 60s would be equivalent to around $20/hr today
was labor somehow worth more back then..... or are people today getting screwed harder than ever before and then being told they should be grateful for the opportunity?
inflation has gone up
cost of living has absolutely skyrocketed
and minimum wage has for the most part remained stagnant

You can't just make up a number to make your point. Inflation doubles about every 20 years, so if we look back then 20 years ago we would have seen 5 dollar minimum (1994), 40 2.50 minimum (1974), 60 1.25 minimum...(1954)


1994 was 4.25
1974 was 2.00
1955 was .75

Your 60s number was actually really good at about 1.24 to 1.60 minimum to be equal to about 6 to 7 dollars for 1996 4.75.
2013 at 7.25 equals 4.87 to 1996 dollars, so we are behind and we should see 10 dollars soon all over, it is already in many places. That would exceed the 60s rate with a 7.62 comparison to 1996.

NOT 20.00 lol

So here is where you are keeping your head in the sand, these last 6 years under Obama have really been bad, REALLY BAD, and you are feeling it right now with direct cost of things. So just because Obama has been crappy doesn't mean minimum wage needs to jump up to your magical 20 dollars per hour. I also think you are mistaken in thinking minimum wage is also a living wage. Never was never will be....

BTW if you are in your mid 20s and work for minimum wage then you are doing, or did something wrong. I don't think I ever worked for minimum wage and I had some really crappy jobs when I started out.

You do not remember the 70s under Carter....my first car is 18% loan, gas jumped to 3.50 a gallon at the end of his term, (10 dollars today) so be careful suggesting everything was so much better in the past.

(i am working on skills and education im eventually going to be an electrical engineer .....doesnt change the fact im getting screwed right now though does it?....... and from what i can see ill be getting screwed then as well)

Where do you work right now and how much do you make per hour? Once again minimum wage has never been a living wage.


Back when I was in college my rent was 900, so it was called having roommates and that concept has been around a long time. I actually had roommates until my early 30s...

a reply to: NavyDoc

none of those are universal.
charity and exchanging goods and services for other goods and services disprove each other as universal behaviors.
open source software
I don't know about you but I don't steal and murder.
lottery winners rarely save their winnings


For these to be human nature, the vast majority of the human race would have to be engaged in these activities. If that were true, the capitalist society that we have constructed would collapse.


I would point you Robert Sapolsky's work, specifically that with the Keekorok baboon troop if I thought you'd care to consume any information that would dispute your #ed-up worldview.

So I'll summarize for you.

The Keekorok troop was a textbook troop, in which strong males monopolized most of the resources. They took to scavenging from the garbage of a nearby town. Some of what they scavenged was tuberculosis-infected meat. This killed all the alpha males in the troop as well as some of the lower-ranked males.
It created a troop with very low levels of aggression and very low levels of social hierarchy. And this held true when Sapolsky came back to study them 20 years later. New members of the troop who weren't born into it found that their ordinary baboon behavior wouldn't be tolerated.
A single event created an entirely different social dynamic, because it created a troop that was socialized differently