Megalithic Cultures: Were They Influenced by an Advanced and Forgotten Civilization?

“We now have really solid evidence that people came from Europe to the New World around 20,000 years ago,” Bradley says. “Our findings represent a paradigm shift in the way we think about America’s early history. We are challenging a very deep-seated belief in how the New World was populated. The story is more intriguing and more complicated than we ever have imagined.” “There are more alternatives than we think in archaeology and we need to have imagination and an open mind when we examine evidence to avoid being stuck in orthodoxy,”

smithsonianscience.org...


Its not even a conspiracy anymore - its popular knowledge.

originally posted by: 131415
“We now have really solid evidence that people came from Europe to the New World around 20,000 years ago,” Bradley says. “Our findings represent a paradigm shift in the way we think about America’s early history. We are challenging a very deep-seated belief in how the New World was populated. The story is more intriguing and more complicated than we ever have imagined.” “There are more alternatives than we think in archaeology and we need to have imagination and an open mind when we examine evidence to avoid being stuck in orthodoxy,”

DNA evidence contradicts the Solutrean Hypothesis.

originally posted by: 131415
smithsonianscience.org...
Note the Smithsonian is involved.

Will people now stop making stupid claims about them "hiding our history?"

Harte


Its not even a conspiracy anymore - its popular knowledge.

I'm gonna go way out on a limb and say "maybe"

Seriously I don't know and sho ain't gonna guess, but I LOVE reading about this stuff S&F my good friend

a reply to: jeep3r

Ah! It happens, I dont see why people make such a big deal about a bunch of stones, the similarities may be inherited, but its also there because it just happens to work, especially were stone work is concerned, with certain tools, in certain ages, some things and structures work better then others, for them building a pyramid would be the biggest thing they could create with the tools at there disposal, so its no surprise that they would all build similar, in that there is much more similarity then the tidbits left behind from any possible other more advanced civilization. Have there been other advanced civilizations before? Yes. Will there be other advanced civilizations again? Yes. Its just the way it goes. In fact its more then that, its as it should be.

originally posted by: AndyMayhew
Any connection between Egypt and Mesoamerica would have to have involved time travel given that one only emerged thousands of years after the other

Well have a look at "Forest of Kings" written by two of the worlds leading experts in Maya language and archeology. These are not cross cultural folks or diffusionists at all. They translate out of the Pascal tomb date of 1st mother early 3000bc a few years before Narmer invaded Egypt.

originally posted by: Ramcheck
So many amazing coincidences (too many perhaps) and the likeness in all things built by the Egyptians and the Inca. It's an odd one. Because one thing troubles me. The Inca were obviously of East Asian / Indian origin from the main Eastwards migration, they've gone over the Bering Strait at some point and taken the 'Pacific Highway' so to speak. Egyptians however appear to be far from it, if I am correct in assuming we still regard the modern Nubian as the product of those Egyptian workers? Completely different race. Please correct me if I'm wrong, a bit behind at the minute. It just doesn't make sense, and if it HAS to then we have to re-write the migration story.

Here the thing. Yes there were folks in South America when the Inca showed up and this event was well recorded. They called themselves children of the Sun. They were the ones that brought in a new age there.

originally posted by: Antigod

originally posted by: PonderingSceptic
a reply to: Antigod

There may be no evidence connecting the two cultures. It doesn't mean there were no trade routes or outright direct exchange of crafts, goods. It did happen numerous times in history and similar events numerous times were made accepted historical facts. My guess is that there's no need to list them.
There's a question how there cannot be a connection, as there was constant contact through Inuit–Yupik cultures where rare artifacts and goods could have traveled through Asia. Ethnology has interesting myths from them. There also could have been contacts in other areas and this cannot be excluded.

Well, the Egyptians were appalling sailors, and didn't consider the world worth exploring. They hardly even moved around the Med, their ships were just not up to transatlantic travel. Egyptian tech and culture can be traced back every step to local Med and Nile cultures, so I can't see any far distant input. I did a LOT of research into the origin of Egyptian culture, from DNA to tech and the archaeology. It's all very obviously an evolution in situ. You see small underground tombs changing into Mastabas and small step pyramids, the writing evolve from simple pictograms in the pre dynastic era, copper working arriving from the Levant. Nothing is 'odd'. Under the farming layers of dirt there's a few thousand years of a simple mesolithic ceramic culture then nothing but and stone tools right back to homo habilis.

Sure you did a LOT of research on the origin of Egyptian culture. Serious researchers understand that Narmer, the Scorpion line was right out of Mesopotamia. Mesopotamian influence is strong and always a part of Egypt's development.

Has anyone ever seen the inside of the rocks with handles? If and it's a big if there was a method to make the rocks more plyable perhaps the budges on the outside represent something pushing down from the inside. As it pushes down to place the rock in place it could pushout the rock face. Also note the change in the building pattern on one wall. Some pocks are smooth others are rough. That might indicate two differing groups working on the same building, That might explain some oddities.
Beside the fact that we lost the ability to work rocks in this manner the fact that the construction looks the same is puzzling. Form follows function so being alike might be a natural progression of learning how to work the rock.
Losing the knowledge on this is vexing. It would seem that passing on such knowledge would be a primary need for any civilization trying to grow.

originally posted by: Antigod

As for the nicotine in the mummies, only one person has found it. Basically with such an extraordinary claim I'd like to see a second study to back it up, as a lot of these kinds of claims have disintegrated when results couldn't be duplicated. I'd like to see a C14 dating on the mummies to prove they aren't relatively modern fakes (does happen).

.

I agree that it seems to be an anomoly. From a quick read on this, by no means am I anywhere close to an expert, there seems to be 9 mummies with those traces out of 9 mummies tested. The main arguement against it basically boil down to "Well there's NO WAY those products, Coca and Tobacco, could be in Egypt", so it can't be true.

I would think further testing of more Mummies and multiple groups doing the testing would provide greater insight into it.

Here is a good article to get caught up on this particular topic. Article

Reading it makes you wonder.......

a reply to: Harte

I remember watching a special on the Clovis Civilization origins and it seemed to have made a compelling case that Clovis artifacts have more in common with parts of Europe than then do with parts of Asia. I could see how you could have migrations both from Asia and a smaller one from Europe hit North America, with the Asian migration being the larger, more successful one. DNA may tell the story of how the Asian Group ended up being the dominate gene pool, but it doesn't explain why Clovis Artifacts have more in common with European Artifacts from the same time frame than they do from contemporaneous Asian Artifacts. Not saying I believe the Solutrean idea but there are gaps in the record and oddities that don't have a full explanation yet.

Another Great Thread jeep3r!

S&f.

Our modern mind is so advanced, we have evolved so much beyond those primitive thinkers who beat each other over the heads with clubs. Now we drop bombs.

Very often we think that our ancestors were so feeble minded, in comparison to our great advancements, but if you go back just a century or two you will find that they had more in common (as far as their way of life) with 'primitive man' than with us.

The difference obviously is our technology. But the mental capacity was there, and sadly I'd say far surpasses our current populace in the west.

All this to say that I firmly believe there were ocean sailing peoples long before the mainstream allows, and that there has been contact between the cultures. Yes I think there was a pre culture. Did they have a different form of technology? A lot of topics on sound and ancient cultures have shown up here on ATS, I wonder if some of these megaliths were created by manipulating sound in some way we don't yet understand.

Someone mentioned the guilds protecting their knowledge, and someone else the Phoenecians. I believe these two are connected, I don't have any specifics to offer right now, but just a theory forming, of the Trading/Sailing guild that were the antecedents of the phoenecians, related to the Danites.

Key lime pie, nuff said

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: Harte

I remember watching a special on the Clovis Civilization origins and it seemed to have made a compelling case that Clovis artifacts have more in common with parts of Europe than then do with parts of Asia.

Solutrean points are characterized by a bifacial form.

Bifacial points have also been found in Asia dating to a similar age.
No Solutrean points have ever been found at any archeological site in the Americas.

Also, the Solutrean culture (as far as we know so far) predates the appearance of similar points (Clovis) by thousands of years.

Although supporters of the Solutrean hypothesis refer to recent archaeological finds, their position has, in general, not been well received and many archaeologists have criticized the proposed similarities as insignificant and just as likely to be due to chance as to shared origins. As David Meltzer put it in 2009, "Few if any archaeologists—or, for that matter, geneticists, linguists, or physical anthropologists—take seriously the idea of a Solutrean colonization of America."[4] Recent DNA studies serve to weaken the case that Haplogroup X2A migrated to the Americas by way of the Atlantic.[5][6] The thesis was popularized by a 2005 Discovery Channel docudrama.[7]

Wiki
That "docudrama" mentioned above is probably what you saw. I saw it too.

It's a nice idea with no evidence at all behind it.

originally posted by: pavilI could see how you could have migrations both from Asia and a smaller one from Europe hit North America, with the Asian migration being the larger, more successful one. DNA may tell the story of how the Asian Group ended up being the dominate gene pool, but it doesn't explain why Clovis Artifacts have more in common with European Artifacts from the same time frame than they do from contemporaneous Asian Artifacts. Not saying I believe the Solutrean idea but there are gaps in the record and oddities that don't have a full explanation yet.

Clovis artifacts do not have more in common with Solutrean than with Asian points. As I said, bifacial points have been found in Asia as well.
Examples of both points (Solutrean and Clovis) are shown at the above link.
DNA analysis shows no trace of Solutrean heritage in the Americas. IMO, this is quite unlikely if Solutreans migrated here.

Harte

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Antigod

originally posted by: PonderingSceptic
a reply to: Antigod

There may be no evidence connecting the two cultures. It doesn't mean there were no trade routes or outright direct exchange of crafts, goods. It did happen numerous times in history and similar events numerous times were made accepted historical facts. My guess is that there's no need to list them.
There's a question how there cannot be a connection, as there was constant contact through Inuit–Yupik cultures where rare artifacts and goods could have traveled through Asia. Ethnology has interesting myths from them. There also could have been contacts in other areas and this cannot be excluded.

Well, the Egyptians were appalling sailors, and didn't consider the world worth exploring. They hardly even moved around the Med, their ships were just not up to transatlantic travel. Egyptian tech and culture can be traced back every step to local Med and Nile cultures, so I can't see any far distant input. I did a LOT of research into the origin of Egyptian culture, from DNA to tech and the archaeology. It's all very obviously an evolution in situ. You see small underground tombs changing into Mastabas and small step pyramids, the writing evolve from simple pictograms in the pre dynastic era, copper working arriving from the Levant. Nothing is 'odd'. Under the farming layers of dirt there's a few thousand years of a simple mesolithic ceramic culture then nothing but and stone tools right back to homo habilis.

Sure you did a LOT of research on the origin of Egyptian culture. Serious researchers understand that Narmer, the Scorpion line was right out of Mesopotamia. Mesopotamian influence is strong and always a part of Egypt's development.

The original farming cultures came from the very northern part of Mesopotamia, the headwaters area. That's about as far as any connection to Mesopotamia goes.

Narmer AKA Menes was a local king, probably upper Egyptian not Mesopotamian. You'd know this if you read RECENT work on the unification of Egypt in the early dynasties. The whole concept of the founding of Egypt's dynasty as a Mesopotamian is incorrect and called 'the dynastic race theory' which was discarded in the last century.

en.wikipedia.org...

This theory had strong supporters in the Egyptological community in the first half of the 20th century, but has since lost mainstream support.

I'm lucky because I know people with phd's in Egyptology that I can check this with.

The pharaohs were of local stock as can be seen when you examine their bones and DNA. They have rather differently shaped heads and faces to Mesopotamians. Long necks, tend to be long in the midface region, sometimes elongated and often round back to their skulls (think like a Somalian for this). A large minority input from Black Africans from the Nile region is typical in all upper Egyptians remains. These people had nothing to do biologically with Mesopotamia.

a reply to: Harte

I'm on the fence. The MtDNA does seem to to support an input from Europe, but I specialize in the Neolithic from Turkey Iran expansion and it's first offshoot cultures, not America. However, I will point out that there are multiple sources of evidence showing a human presence in America going back to 50,000 bp, (Luzia) who were Australoid like and totally wiped out by the Asians when they arrived. SO A small W. European population making it across the ice then being wiped out bar a few female lines is entirely possible. I have to say the NE Indians did look a little different as well, one European Victorian passed himself off as one for decades.

www.youtube.com...

Luzia was probably related to the Ainu or Australoid people in some way. Current natives go ape # at this as they are basically in America as a result of genocide the same as the current Europeans, and resist DNA tests on ancient bones when they can.

This blog post seems to have the most recent info on the Solutrean hypothesis.

tywkiwdbi.blogspot.co.uk...

originally posted by: zardust
Our modern mind is so advanced, we have evolved so much beyond those primitive thinkers who beat each other over the heads with clubs. Now we drop bombs.

Very often we think that our ancestors were so feeble minded, in comparison to our great advancements, but if you go back just a century or two you will find that they had more in common (as far as their way of life) with 'primitive man' than with us.

The difference obviously is our technology. But the mental capacity was there, and sadly I'd say far surpasses our current populace in the west.

All this to say that I firmly believe there were ocean sailing peoples long before the mainstream allows, and that there has been contact between the cultures. Yes I think there was a pre culture. Did they have a different form of technology? A lot of topics on sound and ancient cultures have shown up here on ATS, I wonder if some of these megaliths were created by manipulating sound in some way we don't yet understand.

Someone mentioned the guilds protecting their knowledge, and someone else the Phoenecians. I believe these two are connected, I don't have any specifics to offer right now, but just a theory forming, of the Trading/Sailing guild that were the antecedents of the phoenecians, related to the Danites.

This is all supported by the belief that they had higher average IQs back then than we have now,and each sucessive generation today is more reliant on the internet to guide their lives and so are less capable of thinking for themselves. They were just brilliant problem solvers back then,and could work their way out of a problem without Googling it,just get logs,ropes,lots of big manly men and pull!!!!!!!
This crazy notion about using sound is only popular because it's way more exciting than logs and ropes. We know enough about sound now to know that the SPL (Sound Pressure Level) needed to move heavy solid objects would be high enough to kill any living humans within hundreds of meters. Using perfectly in phase sound sources we can use constructive wave fronts (hope that's the right term) to lift objects weighing no more than a few grams. The popular idea that they built stonehenge by banging drums and singing loudly is about as likely to be true as them using an iPhone app to build it.

originally posted by: Antigod
a reply to: Harte

However, I will point out that there are multiple sources of evidence showing a human presence in America going back to 50,000 bp, (Luzia) who were Australoid like and totally wiped out by the Asians when they arrived.

Not likely.

Neves and other Brazilian anthropologists have theorized that Luzia's Paleo-Indian predecessors lived in South East Asia for tens of thousands of years, after migrating from Africa, and began arriving in the New World, as early as 15,000 years ago. Some anthropologists have hypothesized that Paleo-Indians migrated along the coast of East Asia and Beringia in small watercraft, before or during the last Ice Age.

Neves' conclusions have been challenged by research done by anthropologists Rolando Gonzalez-Jose, Frank Williams and William Armelagos who have shown in their studies that the cranio-facial variability could just be due to genetic drift and other factors affecting cranio-facial plasticity in Native Americans.

A comparison in 2005 of the Lagoa Santa specimens, with modern Botocudos of the same region, also showed strong affinities, leading Neves to classify the Botocudos as Paleo-Indians.[7]

Wiki
It seems that Luzia is an ancestor to the Botocudos. You can find more about this online, but 99% of it is in Spanish.

originally posted by: AntigodSO A small W. European population making it across the ice then being wiped out bar a few female lines is entirely possible.

I would agree with this possibility. Many things are possible, after all.

From your blog link:

The results overturn the idea that migrants who colonized the Americas after the Clovis people are the true ancestors to Native Americans. And the discovery "puts the final nail in the coffin" for the idea that the ancestors of Native Americans may have crossed to the New World from Europe, says study author Ripan Malhi of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

My emphasis.

Harte

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Antigod

originally posted by: Ramcheck
So many amazing coincidences (too many perhaps) and the likeness in all things built by the Egyptians and the Inca. It's an odd one. Because one thing troubles me. The Inca were obviously of East Asian / Indian origin from the main Eastwards migration, they've gone over the Bering Strait at some point and taken the 'Pacific Highway' so to speak. Egyptians however appear to be far from it, if I am correct in assuming we still regard the modern Nubian as the product of those Egyptian workers? Completely different race. Please correct me if I'm wrong, a bit behind at the minute. It just doesn't make sense, and if it HAS to then we have to re-write the migration story.

there's zero evidence of the Inca being of Asian origin. DNA from the locals is entirely native American, and all their crops were local.

Native American DNA is of Asian origin.

They came from there over the Bering land bridge.

Harte

Not All Wrong !!!

2nd line

Here is a Look
















and some similar artifacts between the Old World and the New World
a Possible Ancient Trade Routes passing hand to hand technology.

Dont pass this site up !! you may learn something .... how about that..

it show the similarity's from pottery Sculpture art to buildings and design ! and similar culture !
Artifacts, Atlantis and the route to the sea
www.atlantisbolivia.org...

Native American Culture of the Inuit & Cree Native Americans have a lot of similarity's of the Sami ( laplanders ) and indigenous Natives of Russia and Mongolia Some claim about the cross over of the Bering strait .. yeah but why just the Bering strait, why not a post polar northern Civilization one Culture different racial groups having the same similar lifestyle .. I tend to think Native Americans are a mixture of Asian and European Cultures ( melting Pot ) and just eventually became one type of Species Race over thousand and thousands of years ... Not trying to be Racist as more less I AM like them in a way we see it Happening Now ! The Hispanic Race a Mix of Native North and South American Indian and Spanish European that just Blended in and that just around 400+ years why am i speaking about the Hispanics it begs the question why on applications and documents here in America of Hispanic or non Hispanic
origin >? It seam to Me that they are Labled a New Race.. Im 75% white Celtic/Norse ( more less ) origin 25% Native Mohawk and Cree

another example of influence is the Long House of of Northern New york and Canada Mohawk culture is striking like the Long house of Norse ( Viking ) Ancient Culture almost the same structure .. inside and out ...