Baker Forced to make gay wedding cakes, undergo sensitivity training, after losing lawsuit

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: thesaneone

No T No Shade but quoting Bill Maher doesn't help your stance


No one violated anyone's free speech, or free thought, or free religion. no one said they can't practice said religion, no one said they had to "Accept Gays" and no one said they couldn't vocalize their views.

Nope. They just have to offer the same product to everyone.

That's equality.

a reply to: CranialSponge

Doesn't matter what the connection is. (People connect Islam to 911 anyway and some Muslims have that extreme version of Jihad).

The POINT is, WOULD you make such a cake? If you refuse, is that discriminatory?

Would you feel that making such a cake promote such a thing?

I don't know about anyone else, but from my point of view I'm damn grateful for discrimination laws and inalienable human rights...

Otherwise, as a woman I'd still be riding the back of the bus and unable to vote for the next moron politician.

a reply to: CranialSponge

I do agree with you there. Also check your PM

I'm all for gay rights and could care less who you are or who you love.

With that said..I think it is wrong to force someone to accept your lifestyle. If they choose to be ignorant bigots, let them lose out on business.

If you do not like anyone telling you what to do or how to feel, then you should also feel this wrong. You cannot say one thing for yourself and then turn around and say it should be another way for others. That would be hypocritical of you.

Let there be bigots, racists, sexist and all other bigotry..it is they who miss out on getting to know some possible great people.

a reply to: Onslaught2996


yes, you have a point, but no one is forcing anyone to accept anyone.

also, how far does it go? how about Paramedics? Policemen? Hospitals? Etc

during an emergency a paramedic shows up and sees a Gay couple, can they say "Sorry don't "Accept" you so i wont help? or my religion doesn't allow me to think i believe in you so i wont help?

what about a surgeon, can they say they will not operate on someone because their sexuality isn't something they accept?

a reply to: Deaf Alien

The POINT is, WOULD you make such a cake? If you refuse, is that discriminatory?

Of course it's not discriminatory.

Who in particular are you discriminating against ?!

If a christian walked in and asked you to bake the same cake and you refused, are you discriminating against the christian religion ??

If a hindu walked in and asked you to bake the same cake and you refused, are you discriminating against the hindu religion ??



Here is what would define discrimination in the scenario you are trying to lay out:

A black woman walks in and asks you to bake a cake celebrating 911 and you refuse.
Then a muslim walks in and asks you to bake a cake celebrating 911 and you bake it for him.

You just discriminated against the black woman for not providing the same service to her as you did to someone else.
You are in the service of baking celebratory 911 cakes for other people except a black woman.

THAT is discrimination.



If you are in the business of baking wedding/couple ceremony cakes for all of your patrons except one particular group of people.

THAT is discrimination.




You either bake these types of cakes for everyone, or you bake these types of cakes for no one.
There is no picking or choosing.

The only way discrimination can be proven in a court of law is if you are providing a specific type of service to only some of your customers and not all of your customers equally.



I don't like people with unibrows, it's against my religion.

Someone with a unibrow walks in and wants me to bake pink cupcakes for them, but I don't think they should be allowed pink cupcakes, only my non-unibrow customers get pink cupcakes. So I refuse to bake Mr. Unibrow pink cupcakes, and instead, offer to bake him some nice oatmeal muffins instead.

Did I just discriminate against unibrow people ?



Mississippi 1933.

Black people are allowed to eat in a restaurant, but we don't allow them to use the front door, they're only allowed to use the back door. We haven't refused service to the black people, just so long as they use the back door only and sit in the far back section of the restaurant.

Did we just discriminate against black people ?
Afterall, we're still offering them a service, aren't we ?

originally posted by: Deaf Alien



Let's say that muslims walked in and asked you to make them a cake to celebrate 9/11. You refused. Is that discriminatory?

If you are in the business of making 9/11 celebratory cakes, then yes, it would be discriminatory to refuse to sell such a cake to Muslims. But if your menu does not include making 9/11 celebratory cakes for ANYONE regardless of who they are, then no, it would not be discriminatory to refuse the Muslims this type of cake.

If you are in the business of making traditional wedding cakes, and a gay couple asks you to make them a traditional wedding cake and you refuse, that is clearly discriminatory (they didn't ask him to put anything on the cake that would be specific to gay people, btw - they wanted the same type of wedding cake that a straight couple would ask for).

a reply to: Metallicus

Thanks for the update and your hard work.
After reading all the posts twice Metallicus--
political correctness is going to do as much for
business as foreign outsourcing, maybe more.
This guy has already voiced his consideration to
close the bakery. There, everybody should be happy
now...

I wonder in concept and context how far off base
this is from a GP doctor closing up his practice--
because of a purely hostile environment to his
oath and personal ethics? Let's not follow just the
money on this one, there may be a fundamental
underpinning that has to do with individual views
on right and wrong.

All I know personally is my view on the RvW thing
has kept me poor for half a working lifetime; and
regularly clothes-lined from what appears pure spite.
"You're free to go." says the judge.
translation: "You have only the right to starve, freeze
or rot. Slave."
The rights of the few will enslave the many. Oh wait...
this is a democracy. Oh wait... what are we now?

a reply to: CranialSponge

It has nothing to do with who people are. As I have stated many times... the baker didn't refuse the service to gay couple. He refused to promote same-sex marriage. He offered to make cakes or whatever they wanted, just not the cake that in his mind promote same-sex marriage.

That is why I mentioned 911. It doesn't matter who asks for it, would you do it? Would you feel like you promote it?

If a straight woman or man came in and asked the baker to make a cake for his friend for same-sex ceremony, would he still refuse to do it?

I love many gay people, even though I'm not gay myself... I have plenty of gay people in my family... It really doesn't matter to me...

Here, in WA, we had a similar case, I think. I'm not sure, and I have no references, but I'm pretty sure I could come up with them if needed, but I believe we had a similar case recently. I don't know how it turned out, but it seems relevant: A florist was sued for not providing flowers for a gay wedding... The owners of the company would've, in their testimony, been happy to hook the customers up with the flowers requested, UNTIL it was MADE KNOWN it was FOR a gay WEDDING.... Again, no discrimination, until it was made blatantly clear that it was a gay wedding... I, personally, couldn't care much less, but if I did, I'd want to retain the right to hold and act accordingly to my beliefs.

I don't know how the case ended up... Maybe I'll check real quick and get right back, but the difference is what the service was MADE KNOWN to be INTENDED FOR...

I have love for most everyone, and I can't think of many I would deny a service to, but I value my RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE TO ANYONE. Otherwise, it is forced servitude.

originally posted by: Annee

I thought this was the appeal.

He tried to use the religious argument, which got him as far as all the other recent equality cases.

You've probably got him mixed up with one of the many other small business owners who have had their livelihoods destroyed by the LGBT community.

a reply to: japhrimu

Here's a link to the dispute, plus a counter-claim... It's from a year ago, so I STILL don't know how it turned out.
blog.seattlepi.com...=0

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: Onslaught2996


yes, you have a point, but no one is forcing anyone to accept anyone.

also, how far does it go? how about Paramedics? Policemen? Hospitals? Etc

during an emergency a paramedic shows up and sees a Gay couple, can they say "Sorry don't "Accept" you so i wont help? or my religion doesn't allow me to think i believe in you so i wont help?

what about a surgeon, can they say they will not operate on someone because their sexuality isn't something they accept?

Reading that comment only reinforces the fact that you have absolutely no clue whatsoever as to where a Christian is coming from in this matter.

originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: Annee

I thought this was the appeal.

He tried to use the religious argument, which got him as far as all the other recent equality cases.

You've probably got him mixed up with one of the many other small business owners who have had their livelihoods destroyed by the LGBT community.

A minority wants and deserves equality.

Non-compliant businesses are destroyed because they chose to deny this minority equality.

As I said, " Who's the bully"

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: CranialSponge

It has nothing to do with who people are. As I have stated many times... the baker didn't refuse the service to gay couple. He refused to promote same-sex marriage. He offered to make cakes or whatever they wanted, just not the cake that in his mind promote same-sex marriage.

That is why I mentioned 911. It doesn't matter who asks for it, would you do it? Would you feel like you promote it?

If a straight woman or man came in and asked the baker to make a cake for his friend for same-sex ceremony, would he still refuse to do it?

My bold on your post.

If he's in the business of baking wedding cakes, just not for same-sex marriages, then he IS discrimnating based on sexual orientation. Why ? Because he freely bakes wedding cakes for other types of marriages.

Again, if you are not in the business of baking 911 celebratory cakes for anyone, then refusing to bake one for a muslim is not discriminatory. If you were in the business of baking these types of cakes for your customers but refused to bake one for a muslim, that would be discriminatory.

That's most likely why this judge ruled in favour of the plaintiff... because if this baker makes wedding cakes for all kinds of "wedding" ceremonies but refuses to bake the same ceremony cake for a same-sex situation. That is clearly discrimination.

Offering to bake a different kind of non-ceremonial cake is a smoke and mirrors tactic our moronic politicians use, but a judge is going to see through that bullsnip.

You can be a bigot.
You can practice your religion.
You can stand on your soapbox.

You just can't break the law.

And if you disagree with a law, you can fight to have it changed or repealed. But you can't outright disregard a law just because you disagree with it.

I live in Colorado. I know a lot of you don't agree with this decision but this is how the people of Colorado want businesses to operate within our state.

Colorado is a tourist state. Diverse people from around the country/world come here to play/buy land. We want to be good hosts. Insulting tourists or anyone is just bad PR.

The majority in CO reside along the I-25 corridor, lots of stores/services but small mountain towns are another matter. Lots of them and they attract tourists. There's only 6500 people in my whole county. If I can't shop at my small town bakery I'd have to drive 70 miles to the next one. Refuse services/inconvenience a tourist and they won't be returning or buying land. Maybe that works in Kansas or Texas but I don't think they depend on the tourist dollar like we do.

I really don't understand why people feel the need to be mean/hurtful to people over something that's a bit odd to obsess about. I've worked with the public and my first thought has never been "I wonder what kind of sex this person is having?" I just don't get it? My mind doesn't need to go there to do my job. It's kind of disgusting to think about with most people anyway. LOL

Things are a bit different in Colorado. If gays or pot smokers offend the religious maybe Colorado is a poor choice. I moved here over 20 yrs. ago from Gary, IN best thing I ever did. To each their own I guess. That's the beauty of the US, don't like the state your in there's 49 others to choose from.

originally posted by: VoidHawk
WHy should his employee's be "forced" to do anything? Surely they were only doing as requested by their employer?

His employees are going to have to accept the brainwashing. That is what forces people to pick sides, don'tchaknow? Can't have a world where people just get along!!

Ya know, if we arbitrarily got rid of everyone who had a role in this ...

a reply to: CranialSponge

If he's in the business of baking wedding cakes, just not for same-sex marriages, then he IS discrimnating based on sexual orientation. Why ? Because he freely bakes wedding cakes for other types of marriages.

Perhaps he should have made it clear that he wouldn't bake wedding cakes for same-sex ceremonies or weddings. That is his own fault I guess.

Because he freely bakes wedding cakes for other types of marriages.

What are the other types of marriages? heh. There's straight marriages. Polygamy maybe? I don't want to think about OTHER types of marriages lol.

originally posted by: Onslaught2996

With that said..I think it is wrong to force someone to accept your lifestyle. If they choose to be ignorant bigots, let them lose out on business.

This isn't about accepting a lifestyle, or being forced to "love the gays". It's about following the laws regarding selling to the general public.

You do realize there are other laws that protect the public, like you can't purposefully mislead someone on the product you sell, you can't knowingly sell a defective product, you can't participate in price gouging or other scams, etc. Where is the outrage on those laws I wonder?

If you are part of a religious cult that promotes acts like price gouging, should you then be allowed to do it to your customers, regardless of the laws? No, you can't use your religion to take advantage of others, and you can't use your religion to remove certain people's access to the products and services you provide to the general public.