Simple question on Abortion

originally posted by: Bone75
a reply to: James1982

Actually your question is anything but simple. Are you addressing the issue of abortion, or the issue of child support?

The issue of responsibilities, in the realm of Abortion, child support, parental rights, etc.

If a woman doesn't want to be a mother she will never, ever have to be by the laws of this country regardless of how sexually active she is.

A man doesn't have this same right. He doesn't have that choice. The only way to ensure he never has a child is by never having sex.

In other words, a woman can have sex without ANY risk of a child being born from that engagement. None, zero, not a single possible chance of responsibility rearing its head.

Every single time a man has sex he risks basically handing his life and paycheck over to the woman for the next 18 years.

Do you support that current situation? Do you think that's reasonable that we make laws which tip the balance of power so strongly in one direction?

There are only two solutions, one of which is giving the father a choice in whether the baby is born. This violates the woman's rights, so the only other option is to release men from their obligations to support children they have fathered.

If your a man and want kids, too bad, your wife might abort them and there is nothing you can do.

If your a man and don't want kids, too bad, your girl friend is going to sue for child support anyway.

a reply to: James1982

Just asking are you talking from personal experience?.

originally posted by: FlyersFan



TOPIC - Both the man and the woman are equally responsible for pregnancy.
Either one could use birth control and it wouldn't have happened.
That's the bottom line.

You say they are both equally responsibly for pregnancy, I agree, and they both share equal control. Either one can say no and it doesn't happen.

But once a pregnancy happens, the father looses all control, yet still maintains his share of the responsibility. The woman retains the ability to say "no" but the man does not.

That's the basis of the issue. Would you at least admit that isn't anything approaching equality?

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: James1982

Just asking are you talking from personal experience?.

I have no kids that I know of and never plan on it. Every relationship I've been in ended in good terms. This isn't about me. I care about people getting screwed over regardless of whether I happen to be one of them.

I would never seek to remove the right of a woman to have an abortion, it isn't about that either.

Control and responsibility cannot be divorced from each other. If you have control, you have responsibility. I make a thread awhile ago on economic issues where this same concept was at heart.

If you want the control, you take the responsibility. If you take control from someone else, you take the responsibility along with it.

Government's function on the same principle. They have control, which means they have responsibility. The more controlling a government gets, the more power it has, the more responsibility goes along with it.

Men have to deal with women's choices on whether she keeps the baby.

Why shouldn't women have to deal with mens choices about whether they support it?

originally posted by: boymonkey74
I understand your point better forgive me.
I understand and agree in a way but what can we do?
Just make sure you double wrap it if you don't want to pay for a child for 18 years.

Education is the key again as it is with many subjects but that education begins with parents and some just don't care or have warped views on modern life.

Thanks for understanding what I'm trying to get at, I mean it, because most didn't

As far as what we can do, giving a father the legal right to opt out of child support would do it. That's never, ever going to happen though for more reasons than one.

a reply to: James1982

I could go into how much all this has been in my life including a son I never met because the lady just wanted a child alone but I won't lol.
The thing was some folk came into this thread telling us how it should be illegal and such so we bit..soz .

originally posted by: James1982

Women have Abortions for different reasons. Plenty do so because they simply aren't in a good position to raise a child. I'm not against that at all.
I'm simply against hypocrisy, and this issue is rife with it (on both sides)

I once read something which resonated with me :-

"Quote" A man wants sex a woman wants love .....

It seems to me that it is the anti abortionist 'male' who makes most of

the noise on this subject, and in that he has no say in that his 'partner' is

terminating his child!

Now I personally don't know of any woman who would terminate whilst

in a comfortable and loving relationship?

Of those whom I have known who have had terminations, without

exception it has been because the male who had impregnated her

(along with promises of undying love and a long term relationship) has :-

# has changed his mind

# is not ready to be a father

# needs time?

# disappeared

# turns out he's going back to his ex

So she now has two choices to be a single parent (little chance of support

from him now) or a safe termination.

a reply to: eletheia

It's many variables equal bad bits from both sexes due to us being intelligent apes who like a fumble in the woods.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: eletheia

It's many variables equal bad bits from both sexes due to us being intelligent apes who like a fumble in the woods.

INTELLIGENT LOL ...LOL...

a reply to: James1982

Its how you put that:

"Why is it OK for women to have the right to walk away from the responsibility of a child... But it is not OK for a man to have the right to walk away from the responsibility of a child?"

My take?

The woman has the right to NOT have the child...but as you said about the man? He cannot walk away from the responsibility of the BORN child".

That to me seems simple. Woman have the right to choice...and if born, the man should have responsibility over the living child.

a reply to: eletheia

You're blowing what I said out of proportion (as usual). I said banning abortion would lower those things, not eliminate them. When faced with the fact that you'll be charged with murder for taking part in an abortion, people might just take sex a little more seriously than they do now. That alone WILL lower teen pregnancy and the spread of STD's.

When faced with the fact that an abortion will get you charged with murder, men and women alike WILL think twice about screwing around on their partners. Would you like to see some statistics on the leading causes of murder and violent crime in the United States? How about divorce?

I'm not blaming abortion on these things, I'm blaming promiscuity, and abortion is making it worse.

a reply to: James1982

Okay I will simply eat the rest of the insults and I apologise for going off topic. Thanks for clearing up your position. I think that as long as abortion is legal, and a man uses birth control, then yes he should have the right to walk away. I would have little to no respect for such a man, but that option should be available.

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: James1982

Its how you put that:

"Why is it OK for women to have the right to walk away from the responsibility of a child... But it is not OK for a man to have the right to walk away from the responsibility of a child?"

My take?

The woman has the right to NOT have the child...but as you said about the man? He cannot walk away from the responsibility of the BORN child".

That to me seems simple. Woman have the right to choice...and if born, the man should have responsibility over the living child.

We can agree to disagree, I just take issue with making choices for other people. The woman makes the choice for the man, whether or not the child will be born. What choices are men making for women? Can a man make any legal decision that forces a woman to do something she doesn't want to?

When your choices effect other people's lives in a huge way, either they need to be included in that choice, or you need to figure out a way of going about it without effecting them. That's the distilled version of what I believe.

I demand control over my body too, but I also fully accept the choices I make, and do not expect any other person to deal with them. It's against the law for me to consume certain things, it's against the law for me to end my own life, it's against the law for me to RISK my own life by not wearing a seat belt.

The law has made it clear that THEY control our bodies. I'm against that. I question whether pro-choice people are, because they only seem to want selective control of their bodies. If you say a person should have total control of their body, that means they shouldn't be forced to wear a seat belt, shouldn't be prohibited from drug use, shouldn't be stopped from suicide.

Either we control out lives and our bodies, or we don't. I support full control of our own bodies, but I also support full responsibility be taken too when we exercise that control. That means if you want to give birth to a baby, you take care of it. You want to smoke, don't sue tobacco companies, you want to eat mcdonalds, don't sue and bitch when you get fat.

I'm not suggesting anyone's liberty be removed, I suggest liberty be granted to all equally. That means if you make a choice, which has a definite outcome, if you are in full control of that choice you take full responsibility for the outcome.

originally posted by: Bone75
a reply to: James1982

Okay I will simply eat the rest of the insults and I apologise for going off topic. Thanks for clearing up your position. I think that as long as abortion is legal, and a man uses birth control, then yes he should have the right to walk away. I would have little to no respect for such a man, but that option should be available.

No need to apologize, the vast majority of people making threads on this topic just want to inflame people and argue. I don't want to inflame and argue, I want people to think about things from a different perspective for a few minutes to see where it takes them. When your used to seeing a slew of religious folks going around bashing abortion and women It's understandable to assume that's what someone is doing, no hard feelings.

Whether or not I'm intelligent enough to get others to view things in a new light and spur good conversation is up for debate (I do constantly fail ) but I assure you that's my goal either way.

originally posted by: James1982

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: ignorant_ape

Women have abortions because they carry the baby. Simple biology.

Are you asking me why is the decision their's alone? It shouldn't be, in an ideal world it should be a joint decision.
But in saying that, no man should EVER expect a woman to carry a baby that she feels she cannot. Babies and women are two parts of the same body for 9 months.

The OP made the presumption that's it's 'ok for women to walk away from their responsibility'. My point is that it's 'not ok', it doesn't feel 'ok' and that it's very easy to assume that women who have abortions don't care about the baby they are carrying. Every scenario is different, and complicated.
Therefore making it into a man v woman debate doesn't really cut it.

I'm not making it into a man v woman debate. The laws sit as they do. Once a woman is pregnant a man is totally 100% locked in for at least 18 years. He can do NOTHING legal to avoid this. A woman CAN.

If we are going to make laws controlling how reproduction is dealed with, they need to be fair and balance. There is nothing fair and balanced about having 100% control and 50% responsibility for women, or 0% control and 50% responsibility.

You wanna tell me the world isn't fair? Duh. We aren't talking about the world. We are talking about LAWS. Which we made up, and the whole idea of laws in the first place is to make society a fair place.

Duh?
I understand laws, thank you. I understand abortion too since I was the one sitting in the Dr.s chair having the most horrific conversation I could ever imagine.
What you are asking then is why can't men walk away scot free regardless of how many women they impregnate?

I'll tell you why. The rights of the child. So that we don't have a society full of unwanted, adopted and farmed out kids whose fathers couldn't give a damn about them.
If men don't want the responsibility of a child, don't have sex or have a vasectomy. It is that simple. Or should women not tell men what they can do with their bodies?

This is NEVER going to be a simple question but to entertain it as such them the simple answer is obvious. Men can't have babies.

In this instance...men have no rights. It's a womans decision. I'm finding it hard to understand that so mamy men just don't get this fact. Face it.....men have zero rights when a woman decides to abort a fetus. But do stop and look at her decision for a minute. Try to put yourself there in here shoes. Try to be in her mind years later......when that day creeps back into the mindset. As a man I would never want to be burdened with that decision and the ramifications that come from it. A true life & death decision that can haunt, hurt and remain in your mind for the rest of your life. For some women it kills them from the inside out. Just stop and try to look at it from her perspective. Would you want that decision creeping into your mind for the rest of your life?a reply to: Bone75

originally posted by: James1982
It's absolutely reasonable to give total control of a featus to the mother, because it's inside her body. I'm not against that.

I'm against the hypocrisy that a woman can just decide to abort a baby, but a father can't decide to opt out of birth responsibilities. Biology is what is it is, if something is in your body you should have control over it one way or another.

You say it's absolutely reasonable that a woman can abort a FETUS and then you say a woman can abort a BABY.

I think the confusion comes when you equate a fetus to a baby. They are NOT the same and in fact, it's NOT OK for a woman to abandon a baby. It's illegal, just as it is for a man.

Bottom line:
The woman has the right to abort a fetus, but she does NOT have the right to abandon a baby.
A man does not have the right to abort a fetus, and also does NOT have the right to abandon a baby.

The only "hypocrisy" is that a man cannot get pregnant.

It never ceases to amaze me how many men view a child as: "Something they're being forced to pay for, for the next 18 years."

Selfish, illogical, immature, irresponsible thought processes.

No wonder so many kids today are going postal.... they're nothing but a dent in somebody's wallet.



THIS is what the hell has gone wrong with society.

Ugh.

a reply to: openyourmind1262

Its not supposed to be a choice, that's why it causes so much trauma. In order to go through with an abortion, you must first allow society to convince you that it is okay. My sister used to have the most irresistible personality you would ever have met. 2 abortions later and now my once vibrant sister eats enough pain pills to kill a horse on a daily basis.