Today's KORAN not the same KORAN - REVALATION

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Muslims don't lie about Islam. .

Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"
- "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" And considering he said to make war upon nonmuslims ... that tells us that Muslims are allowed deceit against nonmuslims.

Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression..."

Taqiyya (Saying something that isn't true) and Kitman (Lying by Omission) ... and I've personally seen a lot of that via avoidance and deflection and denial, and most recently with a 'prove it' by a certain poster when in fact the person knew darn well what I was saying was true but he deflected knowing I could no longer 'prove it'. I see these lies all the time.

ATS Thread Discussion - Are Muslims Permitted to Lie? YES

According to William Muir's "Life of Mahomet", Volume I, footnote 88 - It is clear that lies can be told in Islam for these four things - to save one's life; to effect a peace or reconciliation; to persuade a woman ; on the occasion of a journey or expedition.

'To persuade a woman' .... seriously misogynistic neanderthal mentality. And since it didn't say 'persuade a woman' about exactly what, we can safely bet that any Muslim man is given a free pass to lie to persuade a woman about anything .. be it sexual or conversational in nature. (how lovely - not!)

Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible." (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745)

Understanding Dishonesty and Deceit in Islam

Kithman is a command to deliberately conceal one’s beliefs. It is a particular form of lying primarily practiced by the minority Shia’ Muslims. This doctrine is articulated by Imam Jafar Sadiq, the sixth Imam of Shia’ Islam: One, who exposes something from our religion is like one who intentionally kills us. ** Hadith Imam Jafar Sadiq Footnote. #1 Usool al Kafi, p.88

So it's okay to lie to save your life .... and the Imam says that when people expose Islam it's like they are trying to kill you ... so it's okay to lie about Islam. Strange logic ... but there it is ....


BACK TO THE OP ... today's Qu'ran is not the same Qu'ran . If any Muslim dares to admit that, then his religion uses guilt and threat of hellfire against him. He doesn't even dare think it, even if it's true.

Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment"

- Surah 16:106 And I posted it with both English and original translation. So there is no mistake. Massive guilt is being pushed on Muslims not to give an honest look at the religion, its foundations, and it's errors. Organized religions everywhere are guilty of this, it's not just an Islam thing.

This is laughable lol where do people get their information from ....


Here was a question that was asked to salafi scholars about "lying"

What is taqiyyah, and who are the people who practise it? In fatwa no. 101272, you said that it is a term that is particular to the Shi‘ah, and that they are the only ones who practise it. But I discussed with some people who said that Ahl as-Sunnah also practise it. Is this true?

And the reply

Praise be to Allah
Firstly: 

Taqiyyah, in the usual and well-known sense, is one of the basic principles of the Ithna-Ash‘ari Raafidis; Ahl as-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa‘ah differ from them concerning it and it is something that takes them beyond the boundaries of the straight path of Allah. 

Taqiyyah in their religion means presenting outwardly something that is different from what one believes inwardly, as an act of religious devotion. Thus they attributed lying and deceit to the religion of Allah, wrongfully and out of enmity. 

This corrupt belief has nothing to do with the beliefs (‘aqeedah) of Ahl as-Sunnah. According to Ahl as-Sunnah, lying is one of the attributes of the hypocrites. A person may keep on lying and persist in lying until he is recorded with Allah as a liar. These people tell lies and persist in lying in all things, then they regard that as part of their beliefs and religion. 

The way of Ahl as-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa‘ah is based on truthfulness and justice; lying is not part of their religion, praise be to Allah. 

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said: The Raafidis are the most ignorant and mendacious of sects, and the furthest removed from any knowledge of the texts or rational evidence. They regard taqiyyah as one of the basic principles of their religion, and they tell lies about Ahl al-Bayt (the Prophet’s family), the extent of which is known only to Allah. They even narrated from Ja‘far as-Saadiq that he said: “Taqiyyah is my religion and the religion of my forefathers.” But taqiyyah is one of the signs of hypocrisy; in fact in their case, they say verbally that which is not in their hearts, and this is the essence of hypocrisy.

End quote from Majmoo‘ al-Fataawa, 13/263 

I am not going to copy and paste the whole fataw here but you get the idea right? Lying is lying reguardles if its friend or foe . you can read the rest here

islamqa.info...


If your going to bake a cake are you going to ask a monkey how to do it?

Likewise if your going to take knowledge than take it from the knowledgeable....

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: DarknStormy
You will find that the story of Jesus in the New Testament wasn't from his time but from 2nd and 3rd hand accounts after his time jumbled up with bits and pieces from the Old Testament. This way it would of been easy to make up some story and convince everyone it's the absolute truth.

This is what some muslims say about Christian gospel accounts ... but then they turn around and claim that Muhammads life story and his teachings were meticulously preserved. It's kinda silly. (and no, that's not aimed at you, DarnknStormy).

Ummm they were ... About 9 books worth if I am not mistaken

Feel free to have a read


www.sahih-bukhari.com...

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Hey ! What is going on ATS ! Someone has emerged as a Muslim moderator ! And he says he is a radical Salafi !!!
Are you really a moderator !?
Do you want to make people a radical salafi and send them to Syria for killing other muslims and Christians.
Well, there is something wrong on ATS !

Islam has only one meaning. Submission to God. do not hunt ignorant people and do not make difference among muslims. We will watch you with open eyes.

originally posted by: maes2
Are you really a moderator

No he's not an ATS moderator. That 'moderator' that you see isn't put there by ATS. That's his 'add on' under his name ... but there by him.

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere
Likewise if your going to take knowledge than take it from the knowledgeable....

Knowledgeable people wouldn't be indoctrinated ... but that's a subject for a different thread. You might want to advise your fellow ATS Muslim brethren of this statement of yours. One or two of them like to think they are smarter about Christianity than 2000 years of Christian scholarship and theologians are.

originally posted bypost=17966904]maes2[/post]
a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Hey ! What is going on ATS ! Someone has emerged as a Muslim moderator ! And he says he is a radical Salafi !!!
Are you really a moderator !?
Do you want to make people a radical salafi and send them to Syria for killing other muslims and Christians.
Well, there is something wrong on ATS !

Islam has only one meaning. Submission to God. do not hunt ignorant people and do not make difference among muslims. We will watch you with open eyes.

Lol how about this one ! " ill cut your head off if you don't convert to Islam" ......

Say if being Muslim is a summision of your will to god....than how can you force anyone to summit their will to god?

Makes no sense to me :p.


The image of Muslims/ Islam is smeared because of innovation of scripture, lack of knowledge, and wrongful interpretation...

Just saying

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere
Likewise if your going to take knowledge than take it from the knowledgeable....

Knowledgeable people wouldn't be indoctrinated ... but that's a subject for a different thread. You might want to advise your fellow ATS Muslim brethren of this statement of yours. One or two of them like to think they are smarter about Christianity than 2000 years of Christian scholarship and theologians are.

Likewise (with respect) to the Christians and non religious who feel they know Islam.

However I do know Christianity , because I was a Christian most of my life , and I find my self at times defending it in debates with ignorant Muslims

Mostly about the understanding of the Trinity ...

Peace
LSH

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: maes2
Are you really a moderator

No he's not an ATS moderator. That 'moderator' that you see isn't put there by ATS. That's his 'add on' under his name ... but there by him.

I thought that was obvious......

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

The image of Muslims/ Islam is smeared because of innovation of scripture, lack of knowledge, and wrongful interpretation...

How can it be skewed by scripture when it was around LOOONG before Islam was even an idea?

2. Its not skewed because of innovation..........

its skewed because people involved in it tend to want to hang gays, oppress women, and strap bombs to themselves and murder anyone who touches their "book" in a way they dont agree with.......

Not all of them of course, you cant paint a brush that big....but thats the reason........

When this sort of thing is commonplace what do you expect to happen?

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere

originally posted bypost=17966904]maes2[/post]
a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Hey ! What is going on ATS ! Someone has emerged as a Muslim moderator ! And he says he is a radical Salafi !!!
Are you really a moderator !?
Do you want to make people a radical salafi and send them to Syria for killing other muslims and Christians.
Well, there is something wrong on ATS !

Islam has only one meaning. Submission to God. do not hunt ignorant people and do not make difference among muslims. We will watch you with open eyes.

Lol how about this one ! " ill cut your head off if you don't convert to Islam" ......

Say if being Muslim is a summision of your will to god....than how can you force anyone to summit their will to god?

Makes no sense to me :p.

I hope so.

The image of Muslims/ Islam is smeared because of innovation of scripture, lack of knowledge, and wrongful interpretation...

Right. Exactly. And these problems can be solved by logic and knowledge. Whoever sees the truth and reaches the truth and believe that it is the truth and still disobeys, It is related to himself and his God, unless his disobedience is making problems for muslims or his disobedience is one of those items which Sharia law orders punishment for it under an Islamic governing.

Sorry for my first rude statements !

No worries on the "rude statements " man .. I get them all the time

I have to remind my self that people lack the education.

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

The image of Muslims/ Islam is smeared because of innovation of scripture, lack of knowledge, and wrongful interpretation...

How can it be skewed by scripture when it was around LOOONG before Islam was even an idea?

2. Its not skewed because of innovation..........

its skewed because people involved in it tend to want to hang gays, oppress women, and strap bombs to themselves and murder anyone who touches their "book" in a way they dont agree with.......

Not all of them of course, you cant paint a brush that big....but thats the reason........

When this sort of thing is commonplace what do you expect to happen?

I respect your opinion here because It lacks education about Islam and I blame you not. However I don't agree with what you are saying. I will agree however with the part about "Muslims strapping bombs to them self's" sadly its true.. They do this.. Because of wrongful interpretation of the Quran and hadith. No where does it say to kill innocent people or kill your self.

Again a lack of education ...





It was narrated from Thaabit ibn Dahhaak (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (blessings and peace of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever kills himself with something will be punished with it on the Day of Resurrection.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (5700) and Muslim (110).

It was narrated that Jundub ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (blessings and peace of Allaah be upon him) said: “A man among those who came before you was wounded. He panicked and took a knife and cut his hand, and the bleeding did not stop until he died. Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, said: ‘My slave hastened his death; I have forbidden Paradise to him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (3276) and Muslim (113).  

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

The Qu'ran also says that if any Muslim seeks the help of Christians and Jews they lose their right to be called a Muslim. Knowing that just about every brand of extremism has been supported by the West in one way or the other, I wouldn't even call them "Islamic Extremist". They are just Extremists.

originally posted by: DarknStormy
a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

The Qu'ran also says that if any Muslim seeks the help of Christians and Jews they lose their right to be called a Muslim. Knowing that just about every brand of extremism has been supported by the West in one way or the other, I wouldn't even call them "Islamic Extremist". They are just Extremists.

What? Where does it say that?

Let me enlighten you a bit..

Firslty prophet Muhammad (pbuh) his wife was of Jewish decent.

Secondly a Muslims can marry Jewish or Christian ..

Made lawful to you this day are . . . chaste women from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) before your time . . .” [al-Maa’idah 5:5].


This idea of "not having the right to be called Muslim" never heard of it.

However it does sound like something an extremists Muslim would say lol


Anyway hope that helps

Humbly LSH


ETA: I forgot to adress the "excepting help from jews or Christians"


What is the ruling on seeking and accepting help from the kuffaar?
Praise be to Allaah.

That depends. If there is no risk that seeking or accepting their help will have a harmful impact on the religious commitment of the one who asks for or accepts their help, then there is nothing wrong with that. But is there is any risk involved, then it is not permissible to ask for their help or to accept it – in accordance with the shar’i evidence which indicates that it is obligatory to avoid that which Allaah has forbidden and to keep away from that which will earn the wrath of Allaah. It was reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) accepted gifts from some of the mushrikeen and not from others. The reason for that was what we have noted above, as was stated by the scholars.


So basically don't help anyone or take help from one that will jepordize your faith or the religion...

Sounds legit to me

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere

Muslims don't lie about Islam. .

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said: The Raafidis are the most ignorant and mendacious of sects, and the furthest removed from any knowledge of the texts or rational evidence. They regard taqiyyah as one of the basic principles of their religion, and they tell lies about Ahl al-Bayt (the Prophet’s family), the extent of which is known only to Allah. They even narrated from Ja‘far as-Saadiq that he said: “Taqiyyah is my religion and the religion of my forefathers.” But taqiyyah is one of the signs of hypocrisy; in fact in their case, they say verbally that which is not in their hearts, and this is the essence of hypocrisy.

End quote from Majmoo‘ al-Fataawa, 13/263 

I am not going to copy and paste the whole fataw here but you get the idea right? Lying is lying reguardles if its friend or foe . you can read the rest here

islamqa.info...

Please do not take it personally. But Ibn Taymiyah and his student books are full of lies about people that he calls them Raafidis !
Many scholars of Ahlul Sunnah had problem with this man. It is amazing how they are attaching him to Ahlul Sunnah nowadays.
Those who he calls them Raafidis had to hide their beliefs in some occasions unless nothing would have remained from them and all of them would have been killed one by one the same as their Imams.

Some times Islam is in danger. So no one has a right to stay silent. But sometimes your death does not solve anything. And it is likely that Tyrants kill many of muslims. So not only this is not on behalf of Islam but it is itself a danger for Islam. So you have no choice unless to hide your beliefs.

whosoever disbelieves in allah after believing except he who is forced while his heart remains in his belief but he who opens his chest for disbelief, shall receive the anger of allah and for such awaits a mighty punishment. (Koran 16:106)

Many Ahlul Sunnah Scholars accepted Taqyiah I can mention them if you want.

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

I respect your opinion here because It lacks education about Islam and I blame you not. However I don't agree with what you are saying. I will agree however with the part about "Muslims strapping bombs to them self's" sadly its true.. They do this.. Because of wrongful interpretation of the Quran and hadith. No where does it say to kill innocent people or kill your self.

It doesnt matter if you agree with me or not, its historical FACT that Islam is younger then Judaism ......

You dont get to make up your own FACTS, what your teachers or whatever told you is irrelevant.......

It doesnt matter what it says, the fact is they are DOING it, so you can blame people of your own faith for the way its portrayed........

Blame the suicide bombers, blame the treatment of women, blame the killing of gays.....for how the world sees Islam.....

Blame the lack of outcry from the majority of People in the religion AGAINST these acts for not standing up and putting an end to it.......

We can go in circles about media sensationalising this stuff, but if it wasnt happening , there would be nothing to sensationalize.........

In the end , when the people of Islam are done blaming everyone else, there is only one source responsible for how the world views this religion, and its the people of the religion itself.......

I have a group of friends that are Muslim, they are active in trying to change the view of Islam as much as they can locally, but even they confess they are a minority who do this, and they regularly receive threats on their life.......

Want that world view to change? Then more people of the faith need to stand up against these acts.....

originally posted by: maes2

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere

Muslims don't lie about Islam. .

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said: The Raafidis are the most ignorant and mendacious of sects, and the furthest removed from any knowledge of the texts or rational evidence. They regard taqiyyah as one of the basic principles of their religion, and they tell lies about Ahl al-Bayt (the Prophet’s family), the extent of which is known only to Allah. They even narrated from Ja‘far as-Saadiq that he said: “Taqiyyah is my religion and the religion of my forefathers.” But taqiyyah is one of the signs of hypocrisy; in fact in their case, they say verbally that which is not in their hearts, and this is the essence of hypocrisy.

End quote from Majmoo‘ al-Fataawa, 13/263 

I am not going to copy and paste the whole fataw here but you get the idea right? Lying is lying reguardles if its friend or foe . you can read the rest here

islamqa.info...

Please do not take it personally. But Ibn Taymiyah and his student books are full of lies about people that he calls them Raafidis !
Many scholars of Ahlul Sunnah had problem with this man. It is amazing how they are attaching him to Ahlul Sunnah nowadays.
Those who he calls them Raafidis had to hide their beliefs in some occasions unless nothing would have remained from them and all of them would have been killed one by one the same as their Imams.

Some times Islam is in danger. So no one has a right to stay silent. But sometimes your death does not solve anything. And it is likely that Tyrants kill many of muslims. So not only this is not on behalf of Islam but it is itself a danger for Islam. So you have no choice unless to hide your beliefs.

whosoever disbelieves in allah after believing except he who is forced while his heart remains in his belief but he who opens his chest for disbelief, shall receive the anger of allah and for such awaits a mighty punishment. (Koran 16:106)

Many Ahlul Sunnah Scholars accepted Taqyiah I can mention them if you want.

Firstly, Ibn Taymiyyah is of the major scholars of this religion.
He's one of the few who earned the title ''Sheikh Al Islam''.
Sheikh Al Islam Ibn Taymiyyah was known to be of Sunnah and if you are criticising him for not liking the Rafidah,then know that the Rafidah curse the wife of the Prophet - Aisha And they curse the Sahaba and hate Umar and Abu Bakr.
the Rafidah are ''Shiah'' , so if you are trying to make this a "shiah" "sunnie" debate than keep quoting "shiah" innovation/belief

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

I respect your opinion here because It lacks education about Islam and I blame you not. However I don't agree with what you are saying. I will agree however with the part about "Muslims strapping bombs to them self's" sadly its true.. They do this.. Because of wrongful interpretation of the Quran and hadith. No where does it say to kill innocent people or kill your self.

It doesnt matter if you agree with me or not, its historical FACT that Islam is younger then Judaism ......

You dont get to make up your own FACTS, what your teachers or whatever told you is irrelevant.......

It doesnt matter what it says, the fact is they are DOING it, so you can blame people of your own faith for the way its portrayed........

Blame the suicide bombers, blame the treatment of women, blame the killing of gays.....for how the world sees Islam.....

Blame the lack of outcry from the majority of People in the religion AGAINST these acts for not standing up and putting an end to it.......

We can go in circles about media sensationalising this stuff, but if it wasnt happening , there would be nothing to sensationalize.........

In the end , when the people of Islam are done blaming everyone else, there is only one source responsible for how the world views this religion, and its the people of the religion itself.......

I have a group of friends that are Muslim, they are active in trying to change the view of Islam as much as they can locally, but even they confess they are a minority who do this, and they regularly receive threats on their life.......

Want that world view to change? Then more people of the faith need to stand up against these acts.....

Clam down buddy, I understand that you want to teach me about my religion. But in this case I think the student is more knowledgeable.
Maybe this will help you out a bit.


www.abovetopsecret.com...


Maybe you can introduce me to your friends ?

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

I do not want to open this issue here so defend your Islam and forget sects.
But they are Muslims like other Muslims. Just a minority ignorant of them do what you said.
They just have criticism about somethings. Regarding historical events.

[quoteiginally postany: maes2
a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

I do not want to open this issue here so defend your Islam and forget sects.
But they are Muslims like other Muslims. Just a minority ignorant of them do what you said.
They just have criticism about somethings. Regarding historical events.


Sadly its more than a minority. I agree they are Muslims and even though their is a division we all understand the tawheed (their is no god but god) .
Anyway if you have anymore questions I'll be happy to answer them.

Humbly.

LSH