Separation of Church and State has gone too far

No. I'm saying don't be exclusionary of other religions or Atheists or in my case deists in the true sense of the world. And don't give preference to any one religion like Christianity.

Christianity contains both a philosophy, and a religion. Catholicism is a religion, based on Christianity. Baptist is a religion, based on Christianity. Methodist is a religion, based on Christianity. I could go on, but you get what I'm saying. People often confuse the two, philosophy and religion. Most religions have a philosophical aspect and a religious aspect (buddhism, hinduism, etc.). What the anti-theists out there try to do is; discredit the philosophical aspect of christianity by using the religious aspect to trivialize it.

For example, the ten commandments. Reasonable people will agree that the ideas presented stand on their own merit, without the religious aspect. It's not good for society (or an individual) to allow murder. Adultery is not good for a society (or an individual). Lying is not good for society (or an individual). Regardless of whether you believe in Christ, God, or anyone else, the philosophy of these things stand on their own.

And on the flip side, there are many christians who use the religious side of christianity to support the philosophical side, which works for them, but not for those who don't appreciate their religious basis.

We are a country founded on Christian philosophy and if we are going to change the philosophy we use, we better make sure it's better, I don't know of one that's better, do you?

originally posted by: Monger
I'm always a little amused by the way some Americans hold the 'founding fathers' up as if part Jesus and part God himself - quasi-mythical figures to be revered and in some weird way, worshiped.

Never mind the fact the most of them, with a few exceptions, owned human beings as chattel and at least one (Jefferson) was a rapist.

All slave holding founding fathers freed their slaves upon their passing save for one, Thomas Jefferson. He made sure in his will that his dogs were taken care of, but Jefferson's slaves remained enslaved - including the multiple children he fathered with Sally Hemming, starting when she was just 14.

Nice try, but Sally chose to return to the states with Jefferson (according to french law she could have stayed in france a free woman). If there was ever a consensual slave, it was sally hemmings. Now I think it's a little creepy that jefferson slept with a 14 year old, but remember, this was the time when people were getting married at 15-17 years old. 14 was courting time. So while odd by any standard (think a 35 year old marrying a 17 year old) it's not rape.

Actually he did free the children he fathered with Sally.

"Did Jefferson free his slaves?

Jefferson freed two men in his lifetime and bequeathed freedom to five men in his will. All were sons or grandsons of Elizabeth (Betty) Hemings. At least three others were unofficially freed, when he allowed them to run away without pursuit (Beverly Hemings, Harriet Hemings, and James Hemings, son of Critta Hemings Bowles).

A single paragraph cannot do justice to the issue of Jefferson's failure to free more than a handful of his slaves. Some of the possible reasons include: the economic value of his human property (at certain times, his slaves were mortgaged and thus could not be freed or sold); his lifelong view that emancipation had to go hand-in-hand with expatriation of the freed slaves; his paternalistic belief that slaves were incapable of supporting themselves in freedom and his fear they would become burden to society; his belief in gradual measures operating through the legal processes of government; and, after 1806, a state law that required freed slaves to leave Virginia within a year. Jefferson wrote that this law did not "permit" Virginians to free their slaves; he apparently thought that, for an enslaved African American, slavery was preferable to freedom far from one's home and family."
(www.monticello.org...)

a reply to: iosolomon

Your founding fathers may have had God in their hearts, but they knew that it would take more than faith to sustain freedom and liberty for all. So rather than relying on faith, they chose to operate in a secular, ethics-based fashion so that the values of Christianity and other popular benevolent theologies would not be lost, and yet those values would be secured by means of education and fair justice rather than mere wishful thinking.

The best way to attain and maintain peace is education, not religious indoctrination. Anyone who disagrees with this effectively disagrees with peace, because whether we like it or not, the world is infested with religious ideologies. Either we all agree to disagree, or we all agree to kill ourselves to spite our enemies.

Religion is not an infallible means of promoting ethical behaviour, prosperity and peace among men. Even God knows that, and so did America's founding fathers. That being said, atheists are just as hypocritical and full of vague ignorance as religious zealots so I have no patience for either of them - especially ones who go out of their way to advertise their beliefs. Advertisements like that are the reason I stopped watching TV a long, long time ago.

Sigh.

I would like for someone to point out ONE government in the history of the WORLD that is not religious.

ALL OF THEM ARE, and ALWAYS WILL BE.

The fact that people actually believe that separation ever occurred or could is hilarious...and quite telling.

It is a religion people do not even know they are a part of, the most dangerous of all perhaps.

Nicely hidden, and perfectly in control.

a reply to: ParasuvO

What a cop-out...

That's like saying: If a government is made up of humans,... then they are by definition ... religious...


Spoken like a true religious person who can't see/think beyond thier own religious indoctrination...LOL!!!

Sorry but that is a very small-minded way of treating the human race...

a reply to: iosolomon

originally posted by: LDragonFire
just a few reminders, I have posted these things before on ATS.

-George Washington~Deist "He refused to kneel in Church and take communion" Him kneeling at Valley Forge is a fictitious rendering by the artist.

-John Adams~ Unitarian "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian Religion"

~Benjamin Franklin~Vistied the infamous Hellfire Club frequently [during his time in England] (dedicated to "black magic", and political conspiracies) "he did not believe in the immortality of the soul and believe evil to be 'permissible' because presumably if God created everything he created evil as well" A Letter to Ezra Stiles president of Yale that he "doubted the divinity of Christ, but believes in his moral teachings"

~Thomas Paine~Deist author of "The Age of Reason", "The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system"

~Thomas Jefferson~ Speaking on "this loathsome combination between Church and State" he said, "Question with boldness even the existence of god, for if there be one he must more approve the homage of reason over that of blind fear". In 1802 he made the first amendment to build a wall of separation between Church and State. "I do not find in Orthodox Christianity not one redeeming feature". Also..."The Christian god is cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust"...Also "Religions are all alike-founded upon fables and mythologies."

~James Madison~"What has been Christianity's fruits?-Superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

The Founding Fathers did NOT put "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, nor did they put "In God We Trust" on US currency.

*"Under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance by an Act of Congress in 1954 during the McCarthy hysteria.

*"In God We Trust" was added to US currency [coins] in 1864 and became the official motto of the US only in 1956

-The motto conceived by the founding fathers was "Out of many, One"

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" Ben Franklin

We could go into all the pagan statues around Washington DC but right now I don't have time to post.

ATS Thread

btw John Adams was a conservative by today's standard and he even admits the USA wasn't founded on the Christian religion. If the US was founded on the Christian religion DC would be littered with Christian art and statues, not pagan statues.

I absolutely do believe in the separation of church and state. I just look at places like Saudi Arabia or even the past when the catholic church ruled and I shudder.

Just because you believe in God or whatever you might call the higher power you believe that exists, doesn't equate to organized religion, aka the Church. You can have spirituality without organized religion. And you can still have God or a Higher power exist to an extent within politics. But to have organized religion in politics is a recipe for disaster.

I am not atheist. I am not a christian either. I don't like associating myself with any known single religion or any religion for that matter. They all have their good and bad points. But what I do know is that I do believe that a higher power exists (but to what extent I don't know). And I know I don't want a single religion (or any for that matter) taking precedent in the political scene, telling me what I can and can't do and what my rights are based on someone else's religious beliefs.

a reply to: ParasuvO

Most of the UK government and population are athiest. China is an atheist government and is the fastest growing major world power.

a reply to: ArtemisE

Russia isn't religious either is it?

If anyone who subscribes to ANY Religous belief would like to know where their beliefs catalysed from they only need look across the Street at another Church,because ALL Religons came from ONE TRUE STORY.

The very Doctrines themselves contain absolute irrefutable proof of their heritage written into the very dynamic fabric of each of them.

There is no place in todays world for a blending of State and Religous Doctrines or Beliefs.

In the beginning there was One True Story or one True History.

That one Singular True History is where all Religous Doctinal Concepts and Governmental Structures originate from.

This One True History was written to ensure Humanity would understand its Past and its Future and it was a Humanitarian Managerial Handbook and Documentation of Proof of Origin.

So you see the Governing part of the State/Church polarity is the PRIMARY DRIVER.It is the most dominant natural projecting influence.

The Church component of the State/Church dynamic was the component that over time and distance from source was manipulated and promoted and misrepresented to the People,it was never designed to include a Diety concept,the component of the One True History that this SECONDARY influence catalysed from was the Humanitarian Survial Directives in the original story,Human survival was Paramount when the One True History was written and this dynamic reality was reflected in its contents and focus.

The One True History is a Real-time History written by the Catalysing Group of Humans who were alive and who shared ONE COMMON TRUTH.

This ONE COMMON TRUTH was a REALITY no one could deny or misrepresent,and ALL of Humanitys resources and focus went into structuring and preserving this One True History.

The State component is the PRIMARY Driver of the One True Historys Functional Directive as it was an orgnisational template for co-operative Survival structures,the Church /Diety concept is contrived and crafted out of the parts of the One True History which outline critical organisational,emotional and functional core values which must be followed so a c-operating but small and diverse group of Humans could Survive under extreme and desperate circumstancesand continue to take Humanity forward into the Future.

All Religous Doctrines trace back to this One True History,if you reverse-extrapolate their evolutions they ALL go back to a One True History.From this One True History Humanitys past and future were spread in all 4 directions and transported all over the Earth in a path that can easily be documented and reverse-extrapolated.

ALL Religons are ONE,because they ALL originate from Humnitys One True History,and the proof is hidden within each of these currently existing Doctrines AND within all past and forgotten Doctrines,it is hidden in plain sight written into dynamic the structure and fabric of the storys themselves,the belief systems which are projected from each of these Storys may be different however the origins of each is the same.

We can Reverse-Extrapolate Humanitys very existance back to Global Population bottle-necks which mimic Creation and Armageddon or Total Global Destruction,but which in reality were simply intervals of near extinction between cyclical Earth Cycles.

Our Species History is NOT written in one long linear line we can visualise and look for ,it is a spiraling series of circles,complete Earth Cycles as interpreted by a surviving species.


This One True History was a Primary driver of Humanity when it spread from its catalysing location or source and it was preserved worshipped and protected exactly as each geogrphiclly seperating but theologiclly connected group of Humanity understood it needed to be,however as distance and time came between source and each group preserving the same One True History human manipulations began to creep into the Methodologys used to preserve the One True History.

The One True History which WAS intended to be used as a Template to REBUILD HUMANITY from one single source or place,but as soon as the concept became DIVIDED it was conquored.When constant communications were broken between different groups of People carrying and Preserving and living under the Directive of this One True History members of each group followed the Human nature which the One True History was warning us all to police strictly,and some in each group as per Human Nature succumbed to themselves and began to use the One True History itself to Govern and manipulate people.

It was time and distance and the inability to maintain constant real-time communications between different groups of Humanity originating from one primary source with one Primary True History which tripped Humanity up during this current Earth Cycle.As soon as Humanity split into Groups an equal number of cumulative Humanitarian realitys were created or birthed,each one with a need to evolve into its own self-sustaining enity,had the owerful dynamic drivers behind the original ONE TRUE HISTORY OF HUMANITY been kept intact and had Humanity NOT been divided in terms of REAL-TIME COMMUNICATIONS then we would today be living in a Peacefull progressive world where ALL of Humanity was existing in ONE CUMULATIVE REALITY instead if within many.

We BUILD our reality through a cumulative group free-will decision from many self-directed individuals forming a group agree upon and to accept a common history,past -present-future.

If Humanity due to this self-creating reality component of its natural evolution remains in one CATALYSED GROUP it becomes a self-directing entity,unlike anything we can now imagine.

The Internet is taking us by the hand and leading us to this One True History,it is my opinion that the Internet was designed and released to the public to accomplish exactly this end.

Once Humnity re-gained the abilty to communicate in REAL-TIME GLOBALLY it REGAINED the ability to CATALYSE TOGETHER INTO ONE CUMULATIVE AGREED UPON REALITY,and this by Proxy changes everythiing for us as a Species,the Globe becomes peacefull and humanity progresses at light speeds.

The closer we get to Humanity One True History the further away from lies graft misrepresentation manipulation and immoral behaviours we get,this is why you are now seeing the World in many areas seem to be self-correcting,crooked politicians and C.E.Os and Religous Leaders and Corporate miscreants are running for the hills,because and overwhelming unstoppable and all-seeing Humanitarian Truth is pursuing them like a Hungry Wolf chases a weakened Deer.

With unfettered REAL-TIME communications HUMANITY WILL AGAIN CATALYSE GLOBALLY,as we did at the BEGINNING of this current Earth Cycle out of sheer survival neccesitty,it is no coincidence that the Internet was released when it was ,Humaity AGAIN needs to come together to prepare to weather the storm,and it NEEDS ALL DOCTRINES TO COME TOGETHER NOW AS THEY WERE ORIGINALLY DESIGNED TO DO TO ENABLE THIS HUMANITARIAN SURVIVAL.

You see the real tradgedy is that we are at the end of our Earth Cycle now and the One true History was kept hidden for most of the Cycle from the masses,and it is now late in this Cycle of Humanitys Hour,next time round we will need to keep Humanity together communication-wise from the get-go and not allow our One True History our Survivors will again soon be writing become divided and conquored by Human Natures self-serving tendancies.

It is the Humanitarian responsibility of every Doctrines Leadership to recognise this One True History written into their own current belief systems to enable the coming together of all as was originally intended for Humanity to keep together and avoid the seperation and discord we experienced during our Earth Cycle and Humnitarian History.

Athiests fight the Diety concept,and this is natural,when you understand the One True History of Humanity you understand why they engage this battle,and why if everyone understood this One True History we would see no battles and dischord.You also understand the birth and evolution of the Diety concept and how it originated from Humnitys One True Historys misinterpretaion,a misinterpretion with the design and energy of Human emotionally catalysed self-serving dynamics as core drivers.A NATURALLY CATALYSED misinterpretaion,once Humanity was split into groups with no way to stay in realtime communication their ability to self-police their own Human Natures effectively was weakened.

No one is at fault for differing Religous beliefs if they have not had access to Humanitys One True History,even the horrendous killings and wars have an explanation,we CAN understand how it all happened if we look within our own belief systems for the same answers instead of looking for externl change and understanding from everyone else first.

Every single Religious Doctrine on this Planet has a common origin,and hidden within each of them is the Master-Key needed to open up the real revelations of Humanitys One True History.These Master-Keys CANNOT be taken out of these Doctrines because the original intentions of ALL of them was WELL INTENDED and then bastardised later which allows us to reverse-extrapolate this evolution even though it is a regressive one.You CANNOT remove Humanitys One True History from the FABRICS of todays and all of Historys Doctrines,for within each of them will always remain core value pieces of the One True History.

Humannitys path splitting to the 4 directions in an evolutionary re-birth of sorts which resulted in the seperation of real-time communications was natural,and the original disconnect was not by design.However the continued and maintained seperation was nurtured to satisfy the self-serving interests of specific Humans within each group carrying the One True History,each group likely following and sticking together based on this One True History making it the only viable tool of manipulation.Human nature of being self-serving was given a fertile place to grow and it grew in all 4 directions at nearly an identical rate in nearly identical manners.

Once your eyes are opened to this reality it is very easy to understand,even more-so if you have ANY religous background denomination aside the heartfelt and instinctual connection is immediate and permnent,it as as if a key has just fit perfectly into a lock,fit into it NATURLLY.Everyone feels the potential for HARMONY when they are given Humanitys One True History and it is self-evidenced right there within their own existing belief systems.

Oh, for goodness sake. Atheism isn't a religion and you know it. If you don't you need your head checked. As far as I'm concerned, there cannot be a far enough distance between church and state.

The fact that you think someone's fantasy ought to play a part in making laws for other people only betrays your dangerous thought pattern.

I'm sure you can imagine that I'm not very surprised.

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: iosolomon

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

—Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802


"The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs"

—Thomas Jefferson, Letter to James Smith, 1822


"The civil government … functions with complete success … by the total separation of the Church from the State."

—James Madison, 1819


"The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

—1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed by John Adams

Have you actually read the the whole letter Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists? People love to bring it up but fail to understand what he was warning.

Separation of Church and state was intended to PROTECT THE CHURCH FROM THE STATE not the other way around. Atheists have hijacked it and perverted it to mean something else. History has show time and time again that its Government who hijacks religion and turns it into a tool for control.

originally posted by: strykr619

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: iosolomon

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

—Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802


"The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs"

—Thomas Jefferson, Letter to James Smith, 1822


"The civil government … functions with complete success … by the total separation of the Church from the State."

—James Madison, 1819


"The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

—1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed by John Adams

Have you actually read the the whole letter Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists? People love to bring it up but fail to understand what he was warning.

Separation of Church and state was intended to PROTECT THE CHURCH FROM THE STATE not the other way around. Atheists have hijacked it and perverted it to mean something else. History has show time and time again that its Government who hijacks religion and turns it into a tool for control.

A government which is made up of people. It's people that create religion and people that corrupt it. My beliefs should have no bearing on any law involving you and your beliefs should have none in turn which affect me.

I'm desperately trying to comprehend why some people think they have the right to impose their religion on anyone else.

Can you give me a reason why this should ever be the case? Do the religious among us have the moral and ethical high ground?

a reply to: BasementWarriorKryptonite

Because true believers think religion is science. You know how they say " science is true weather you believe it or not". Well they believe Christianity is true weather you believe it or not. They think everyone who doesn't believe exactly what they do, is gonna burn in hell forever. No matter how well you lived your life. No matter how good of a husband, father and nieghbor you are is irrelevant. If you don't buy into there personal flavor of Christianity there guy is gonna take your soul and torture it for all eternity.


There so emotionally invested in it that they denigh science and stats and facts all to keep there fantasy going. It's all the devil trying to confuse them.


They will latch on to the one part in the bible that kinda matches up with science. While ignoring the fact that EVERYTHING else doesn't.

The really funny part is they way it's the same people yelling about freedom. Who have bought into a stone age version of big brother. There is no control mechanism every created that touches religion/faith. It requires no proof. In fact somehow the lack of proof is proof there's a conspiracy to discredit Christianity.

originally posted by: Monger
I'm always a little amused by the way some Americans hold the 'founding fathers' up as if part Jesus and part God himself - quasi-mythical figures to be revered and in some weird way, worshiped.

Never mind the fact the most of them, with a few exceptions, owned human beings as chattel and at least one (Jefferson) was a rapist.

All slave holding founding fathers freed their slaves upon their passing save for one, Thomas Jefferson. He made sure in his will that his dogs were taken care of, but Jefferson's slaves remained enslaved - including the multiple children he fathered with Sally Hemming, starting when she was just 14.

freeing slaves in those days sometimes worked and sometimes did not.
there were slave hunters that would find freed slaves take there freedom papers and take to into the south and sell them back into slavery.
www.washingtontimes.com...

a reply to: TheAnarchist

I see your points.

However,while you are stoking the fire you have going inside,remember that these religons as whacked out and bizarro as they are to the Humanitarian consciense do in fact HOLD amongst the many doctrines and Followings the One True History of Humanity,so we will need to take note of them all and preserve them until enough people have understood and put together this One True History.Wiping Religons out before the Revelations are brought out together to the masses unfortunately wipes out the One True History of Humanity.

originally posted by: ausername

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: iosolomon

Wondered how long this thread would take to pop up.
On my phone or I would link the many quotes from founding fathers that were all for the separation of church and state....

Separation, not elimination.

Religion has no business in government, nor should government have any business in religion.

But when people seek to eliminate use of the word God, or any speech in any venue that expresses faith they have indeed gone too far.

Funny, that atheists seem so obsessed with eliminating a God they believe DOES NOT exist.

Why so afraid of something that doesn't exist?

well its the same as you insisting that Santa Clause should be next president of the United States. To an Atheist its a rediculous claim, we are not afraid, we just think its rediculous and you push it so voraciously and its full of hippocracy and deserves to be ridiculed and you are all too blind to see it. We dont want YOUR imaginary sky fairy pushing into our day to day lives, because we believe it to be nothing more than a construct by men to control the masses and hey guess what? its working brilliantly and has been for thousands of years

if your neighbor starts telling you that the public schools should start teaching the religion of the Founding Fathers, you can give them a copy of the Jefferson Bible.

I believe this entire thread can be summed up in my small quote beneath this post.
Our Founding Fathers tried to ensure that WE the People would have freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion.
It's simple.
People with an agenda try and make it difficult (see ACLU and the likes for more details).
Quad