China summons US envoy over cyberspying charges

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: mikegrouchy

Some people here are so hellbent on wanting to hurt the US they can't think clearly. As I pointed out the Chinese have destroyed the lives of MILLIONS of Americans. They don't care about that though.

All I can do, at this moment, is keep a watchful eye on the US envoy in China.
Hopefully nothing happens to Max Baucus.













I do find it curious though,
that instead of producing the accused,
China seems to be closing ranks around them.

Perhaps the accused should turn themselves in to save their own lives.
America will treat them much better than China will if they become an embarrassment.


Mike Grouchy

a reply to: mikegrouchy

The embarassment already happened. Admitting this happened would be worse than denial with no court case. They should try them in absentia.

originally posted by: ThePublicEnemyNo1
a reply to: mikegrouchy

I totally admit they are guilty. I see it every day! It's a mess here in Cali...a mess. However, there are others within our governments (Federal and State) that are facilitating this crap.

Honestly, it's a mess in Los Angeles County mostly. A real crying shame. I'm glad I live in Pasadena...we have our own government and there's just certain crap that won't fly around here. Never has...never will.

Come correct or don't come at all!

Agreed!






This is for you.


Mike Grouchy

a reply to: ThePublicEnemyNo1

However, the Chinese are not very good at spying, obviously...they've been caught and it didn't take long to catch them.

They started in 2006 according to the indictment so they have had eight years. They succeeded in their assigned missions. Perhaps they see that as a win.

I don't know if they got caught because they were sloppy or it technology just caught up with them. There is still nothing in the indictment that connects their online aliases with the five people or in fact with the Chinese Government.

Since the Chinese have not arrested them one can assume either one of two things.

They are not connected with these crimes ..... or

They were State Sponsored and as such were just like any countries spies and carried out their mission.

I am glad we can agree to disagree. All spy agencies do this sort of stuff it is just that one group is making a fuss at this present time and this too, has happened before, many times.

P

a reply to: mikegrouchy

Oh...Yeah.. I forgot that was our Ambassador to China. Oh Dear...



Great news: New ambassador to China says he’s “no real expert on China”

I mean, really. What could possibly go wrong here? We have the best minds in America working the case...or..umm..something like that.

This leads me to an interesting side question, when will the US get caught doing this and will it be an American company using them to crush their own competition? Wouldn't the history of theCIA favor that scenario?

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: mikegrouchy

The embarassment already happened. Admitting this happened would be worse than denial with no court case. They should try them in absentia.

I disagree, but only subtly. Generally I agree in over all point.

In my experience in the East, I have found that perceived embarrassment from a western perspective doesn't exist.

To say that another way; the Eastern mind is not embarrassed until it admits that it is embarrassed. Denial, obfustication, and blame shifting usually comes first.


To China I say;
don't be upset, the master will always see the apprentice as a child
and you have made great progress. If these last few steps seem hard,
just remember that these are the last few steps.


Mike Grouchy

a reply to: pheonix358

They were caught a long time ago. They were asked to stop, they refused. Businesses that do business in China that had tech stolen went to the Chinese and asked for help. The Chinese said prove it in court, we aren't helping.

The US should move it's business to India, warn China, then stop importations and import from India.

originally posted by: Thorneblood
This leads me to an interesting side question, when will the US get caught doing this and will it be an American company using them to crush their own competition? Wouldn't the history of theCIA favor that scenario?

Except the US doesn't do that. Can you show me where it's been done? China has been caught doing this to HUNDREDS of companies in just a few years. So I would think you can find a few thousand companies the US has done this to. Let me know when you have 100+ you can prove.

originally posted by: mikegrouchy

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

a reply to: mikegrouchy



The embarassment already happened. Admitting this happened would be worse than denial with no court case. They should try them in absentia.

I disagree, but only subtly. Generally I agree in over all point.



In my experience in the East, I have found that perceived embarrassment from a western perspective doesn't exist.



To say that another way; the Eastern mind is not embarrassed until it admits that it is embarrassed. Denial, obfustication, and blame shifting usually comes first.





To China I say;

don't be upset, the master will always see the apprentice as a child

and you have made great progress. If these last few steps seem hard,

just remember that these are the last few steps.

Mike Grouchy

I think we generally agree, and simply said it differently. That's why I specified it's much worse if they admit it.

However, I think the Western world knowing it happens with no proof is not bad, but actual proof that links back to China I think DOES embarass them, just a much smaller degree. So the strength of evidence will be important.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

You just want to punish their success. This is free market economy at its best, you want government regulations? Boo.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

I dont know what was to be expected?

China to meekly hand over the suspects?

Afraid this is another embarrassing backfire from you government.

Just waiting for my own idiots in government to wade in support of the USA and screw things up more.

a reply to: mikegrouchy

a reply to: ThePublicEnemyNo1

Those stores that sell that junk in America are American and the customers who buy that junk are also Americans.

The problem resides within the USA!

originally posted by: pheonix358


Since when does US law apply to people outside their country.

)

I know right?

In the UK the USA kidnap and extradite British citizen at there whim for US crimes that are not illegal in the UK and whose actions were done in the UK.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: mikegrouchy

Some people here are so hellbent on wanting to hurt the US they can't think clearly. As I pointed out the Chinese have destroyed thelives of MILLIONS of Americans. They don't care about that though.

Think about it...really really think about what you said.

Why should they care? For what reasons do they have to care? I know here, they care, hell, they're buying up everything. I'm not mad about the purchase of property by anyone. If you have the cassh and want to spend it , then by all means spend it. The treatment of patrons sometimes is off, just not right.

I'm all for buying stuff, places and things...hell, I do it! Just treat others as you want to be treated. That's all. It just seems, they don't respect those mottos. Just my personal experience.

Look, I once went into the Santa Anita Mall (now Westfield Santa Anita right across the parking lot from Santa Anita Race Track in Arcadia). At the time I took my teenage daughters in this store to shop for backpacks for school. All three of us are mixed (one is dark skinned). They followed my daughter (dark skinned one) around that store like she was going to steal something. So, as a mother I asked the manager why she allowed such scrutiny especially since there were cameras everywhere? She didn't answer me, so we left...never spent any money there. These same 2 daughters went into that same store again without me and encountered the same treatment. They called me from inside the mall. I called the owner of the mall (he owned several malls) and I complained.

This store had received so many complaints from others (not even based on being black, white or hispanic...but based on being Non-Asian...it was documented that they didn't treat Asians the same) that they were shut down. This store may be operating elsewhere, but not where I live. Nor any other mall in all of Los Angeles County.

Buying property is anyone's legal right...some people just need to learn how to treat others with respect. Especially, when you're making money in another country. I'll say that I'm more specific in my shopping habits nowadays and so are my 3 daughters, my husband and my son.

Six people they won't get money from while scrutinizing our every moves. I even cancelled a cruise I was to go on to China with my best friend. Screw em', until they learn how to do do business with Americans in America.

They have a lot to learn.

Although my story has nothing to do with the OP and I apologize, it just goes to show that any of us on this planet no matter our nationality or our financial background, need to understand that when we're in a foreign country doing business, we need to treat one another with respect. That goes for US citizens as well.

How else will we make money if we don't respect each other and the laws of the state(s) with which we do business? You can't go around spying on everyone because you think something negative about them. If you can't hang with the US business market in fairness, then get the hell out. Period.

Don't steal or hack!

(I hope I'm not too off topic Wrabbit)

originally posted by: DietJoke
a reply to: mikegrouchy

a reply to: ThePublicEnemyNo1

Those stores that sell that junk in America are American and the customers who buy that junk are also Americans.

The problem resides within the USA!

Yeah...okay, whatever

Thank you...I think you're onto something

originally posted by: mikegrouchy

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: mikegrouchy

The embarassment already happened. Admitting this happened would be worse than denial with no court case. They should try them in absentia.

I disagree, but only subtly. Generally I agree in over all point.

In my experience in the East, I have found that perceived embarrassment from a western perspective doesn't exist.

To say that another way; the Eastern mind is not embarrassed until it admits that it is embarrassed. Denial, obfustication, and blame shifting usually comes first.


To China I say;
don't be upset, the master will always see the apprentice as a child
and you have made great progress. If these last few steps seem hard,
just remember that these are the last few steps.

Mike Grouchy

Oh yea that hurts them soooo much, they are probably soooo embarrassed omg, we really got them good didnt we. Like an all out bombing of embarrassment on them, what suckers! Even if America doesnt get the justice it deserves in this despicable act of terror, at least America can rest well knowing how embarrassed the Chinese must be. I bet they are like, so embarrassed.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: pheonix358
I maybe a bit thick but .....



Since when does US law apply to people outside their country.



Obviously these people have not broken any of China's laws. What makes the US think it can go and issue arrest warrants for people who (presumably) have never set foot on US soil, and who never will.



This is just insane.



No one asked for the US to be the world police and quite frankly, they are not suited for the job.



China will not like the utter hypocrisy of this US move, not one little bit. I think many countries are getting sick and tired of the hypocrisy of the US Government.



I don't understand what the US hopes to achieve or how they have evidence against these five. Did the hackers leave their names behind.



P

What does this have to do with World Police? Do you have the slightest idea what is going on? China is using it's military to sabotage American businesses and steal from them, with the goal of destroying the US economy and replacing US businesses with Chinese ones. They have cost the US over 5 MILLION jobs in the past 10 years.

And what you think some silly arrest warrants in attempt to enforce US law on china will work?

China is going to meekly hand the suspects over?

Yeah right!

If USA wants to stop then its NSA should have been forced on doing its job right in the first place and not concentrating on domestic spying!

All these arrest warrants have done is make the USA look like a cry baby.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04I think we generally agree, and simply said it differently. That's why I specified it's much worse if they admit it.

However, I think the Western world knowing it happens with no proof is not bad, but actual proof that links back to China I think DOES embarass them, just a much smaller degree. So the strength of evidence will be important.

Yes indeed!







This is for you.


Mike Grouchy

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: Wrabbit2000

I dont know what was to be expected?

China to meekly hand over the suspects?

Sure, why not.
Get them some million dollar lawyers,
and win the case in open court in America.
I would be a major coup for China.

But the evasiveness, blame shifting, and foot dragging is the behavior of a young child.


Mike Grouchy