It could be you up there...

originally posted by: Seede

Text Well I wouldn't go that far because some of what s/he says brings up some good points and I cannot bring myself to believe that he came back from the dead three days later either. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Jesus was three days and three nights in the center of the earth testifying to the justified in Sheol so I don't think He had much more time to be dead three days and three nights in a tomb. It sounds as though you do not understand death or resurrection.

You seem to know the language these mice speak. Tell them he survived.

originally posted by: Seede

Text Well I wouldn't go that far because some of what s/he says brings up some good points and I cannot bring myself to believe that he came back from the dead three days later either. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Jesus was three days and three nights in the center of the earth testifying to the justified in Sheol so I don't think He had much more time to be dead three days and three nights in a tomb. It sounds as though you do not understand death or resurrection.

We were drinking coke and had a great time when Jesus came by. He's a ball, we always love when he comes around. We get to LIVE.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

When I was beaten senseless by gravity and the Earth, my lung burst from the trauma of impact itself, . . .

OK then, what sort of impact was it that did this sort of damage to Jesus?
And what similar experiences did Roman soldiers have like this on the battlefield?

How about being heavily beat wth a MORNINGSTAR or similar, like a club or simply being beat senseless with fists and knies while holding his breath? Your creativity seems to be limitless when it comes to how Jesus was beat elsewhere, but here suddenly it seems he wasn't beaten at all. WHY?

originally posted by: DarknStormy

wouldn't you find it ridiculous that he would pave the way for a Godless political structure?

Not really. Jesus never meant to be God or son of God or anything, afterall it was what (nearly) killed him and what people claimes against his will. WE ar the future of hs, and our children will prove our knowledge. Jesus was a man and he was a prophet and a prince, his blood bubbles in me veins. What comes net is politics, where decisions are made. Laws are not made by miracle.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

How about being beat with batters with him holding his breath like any sensible one would do.

Where do you get this from?
I think you are reading a different version of the story.

Have you ever been severely beaten? With sticks and stones or rods and clubs?

Probably the closest thing would be being hit by a pick-up truck and thrown through the air.
I could not breath (after landing) and at the moment wasn't sure if I would ever.
I don't think I could have held my breath if I wanted to, in fact the air was forces out of me in a very abrupt way.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

. . . or simply being beat senseless . . .

I was that, by a dude who I thought looked like Ken Norton when he fought Ali, but that was mostly due to impacts to the head.

suddenly it seems he wasn't beaten at all. WHY?

Because you are making it up, rather than getting it from the gospels.
He was likely scourged and was probably punched.
I doubt that he had like boulders rolled over him or something.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

How about being beat with batters with him holding his breath like any sensible one would do.

Where do you get this from?

Sure it's not you who asked me for my personal experience and when you got it you turn Jesus against me like he was resting on a a pivot?

I think you are reading a different version of the story.

Yes you do

Have you ever been severely beaten? With sticks and stones or rods and clubs?

Probably the closest thing would be being hit by a pick-up truck and thrown through the air.
I could not breath (after landing) and at the moment wasn't sure if I would ever.
I don't think I could have held my breath if I wanted to, in fact the air was forces out of me in a very abrupt way.

Try that every day for a year and I might actually understand your pity for your self. Phah.....

a reply to: jmdewey60

If I smashed you head to the pavement, would you ask whether you where dead or not, and would you feel it differently if I scratched my arse?? Does the word arbitrary mean anything to you? anachronism? Lying? And how does that feel, having your personal experience raped by someone on the other side of the earth?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Text Now, if Jesus didn't die on the cross, then what happened?

You have good points to consider and I believe some valid points in your thread.

Jesus was tried by the Sanhedrin court of seventy one members and was acquitted by that court. This was the reason that He was not stoned to death as was hoped by the house of Annas. There had been a long standing feud between the house of Annas and the house of Arimathea. Joseph of Arimathea was Jesus’ uncle and was one of the wealthiest men in the Roman Empire. But he was more than one of the richest, he was also an active member of the Sanhedrin. And here is the kicker. According to the bishop of Antioch (180 AD), quoted from the Apocryphal Gospel of Peter, Uncle Joe was a very close friend of Pontius Pilate.

Now let me build on that premise for a little more. The house of Annus was the house that controlled the wealth of Jerusalem. This was controlled by controlling the Jerusalem temple wealth. Arguments aside, it was the most corrupt syndicate that existed in the entire Roman Empire and to give you an example it is estimated that the Jerusalem kick back was about one third of the entire Roman revenue. Uncle Joe was very influential in the Sanhedrin and had used his influence to acquit his nephew Jesus from the death penalty but his wealth could not match that of the house of Annas.

His next step was to somehow keep Jesus from the mob rule that Annas had brought in to influence Pilate. Even though Arimatheaa was a close friend of Pilate, he could not overshadow Anna’s threat to face a treasonous act to Caesar himself. It was this threat that Pilate then allowed Jesus to be hung on the tree. It was a self-preservation act that Pilate had to consider and naturally he chose his own hide over Jesus.

I believe that this can tie in with the OP and his thread but remember that we are all discussing theology here and nothing more or less. Now let me explain the Christian’s viewpoint.

It had been prophesied through the apostles and prophets that Jesus would be killed and would spend three days and three nights in the center of the earth. Then would reappear once again and prove that He had life within Himself. One very important and arguable point to consider is that Jesus is claimed to have been conceived by the Father God (Holy Spirit) and not of the genetics of the human flesh. This is the key of understanding Jesus and has been argued from His death to this day.

If Jesus could eat and drink the terrestrial elements as a resurrected entity, then it stands to reason that He could nurse and exist in the same manner as the man Jesus. Now the Christians can not have it both ways. Either Jesus was conceived by God and had life within Himself or He did not. We cannot believe this only where it is convenient. The reason this is the key is that by the laws of physics all existence of life must die and return to their sources from which they exist.

Then what am I stating? If Jesus was conceived by God then His source would be God and He would then die and return to that source. Every living organism that dies will leave a residue of its origin.

The Roman Garrison was a very prideful position to be employed and it was also a very strict occupation. To disobey Rome was to bring death upon you and at times your entire family. In this case the guards of the tomb were of very high caliber and it was customary for a Roman guard detail be from four to sixteen men. It depended upon the importance of the watch. We are not told what that number was but here is an example from bible studies “At The Moorings”
Quote When sixteen participated in overnight duty, each quaternion (group of four men) took the watch for about three hours so that four men were awake at all times. The four on guard stood at the object to be secured, while the other twelve slept in a semicircle with their heads pointed inward. Each soldier was armed with a six-foot pike, a sword, and a dagger . Unquote

It was after this period was over and Jesus had reappeared that we read this account.

Mat 28:11-15 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done. (12) And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, (13) Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept. (14) And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you. (15) So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

Now this would mean that at least four guards and the captain of the guards would have been bribed. Let’s face the facts. The captain of the guards has to make a verification that the body was dead and that the seal secure. The trenched stone seal is estimated to have weighed from ½ to one ton and would take an estimated ten men to move it. At the end of the 24 hour watch the captain would have had to make a full report that the seal was secure and that the same body was secure.

The mystery that has never been solved is that if the soldiers took bribes then that means that they were never held accountable for the missing body and that the captain of the guards must have equally been not accountable. And yet this was a national episode. This does not agree with the Matthew account of the accusations of bribery nor with the protocols of the Roman military code. Common sense tells me that someone had to be accountable to the Roman command for a failed watch. So who do you believe?

Now along with this is the fact (if this all happened) that the captain of the guards would also verify that the body would be in that tomb and sealed by the captain. Also the captain would have had to verify that the body was dead. One of the surest methods was that of touching the eye. There are other ways but this was the most common. There were drugs that could be used for suspended animation but with the scourging that Jesus endured it is unlikely that He could have survived that ordeal.

If Jesus was as the Christians claim then he was hung on Nisan 14 which was the fourth day of the week and entombed by that sunset (About 6PM) which started the 24 hour count. The 12 hour night of the 15th and 12 hours light of the 15th would count as one day and one night. The 12 hours night of the 16th and the 12 hours light of the 16th would count as the two days and two nights. The 12 hours night of the 17th and twelve hours light of the 17th would be counted as the three days and three nights. This would bring us to ending of the seventh day Sabbath (About 6PM). This leaves us with twelve hours night of between 6Pm to 6AM of the first day of the week.

a reply to: Seede

continued from above

Those hours of night of the first day of the week were after the allocated three days and three nights because the biblical account says that the women came to dress the body before sunrise. Therefore we know that this night could not be counted as one of the three nights. This then leaves the very first night that Jesus resurrected and He had to resurrect before the 6PM start of the first night. The bible tells us that He died about the ninth hour (3PM). We do not know how long it took to inter Him but He must have resurrected within that three hour time of 3PM and 6PM. If He was in the center of Sheol for three days and three nights then He most certainly was not in the grave (tomb) three days and three nights. That means He was in a conscious state of existence within a time frame of three hours after declaration of death.

The mystery lies in the change of guards. I would never believe that the Roman change of guards was not done properly. This means that as the Sabbath came to a close (6PM) of that evening, the guards were relieved by the captain of the guards and along with the change would have been the verification that the body would have had to be in that tomb and that the seal was intact. That report in the relief of the guards to the commander had to be made and yet nothing is said of this in any discussion that I have ever heard.

Could this have been pulled off? Uncle Joe had the bribe money but then again don’t you think Annas did not have his eye on this whole episode? I refuse to believe that in this national episode that Annas did not have his own eyes on this matter at all time.

So what is my belief? If Jesus did resurrect then He returned to His source just as we return to our source and that would explain why no body was recovered. The scam of Jesus living would have been impossible because of messing with Roman authority. I would have to have more evidence presented to explain how a captain of the Roman guards would chance a conspiracy because I think that is where all of this hinges. As far as the guards taking a bribe? If Matthew knew about this then don’t you think the Roman Command did not know? And if the Roman Commander knew about bribes then I almost know for a fact that the guard’s heads would roll. Do you understand that it took a Roman soldier about ten years just to train and dereliction of duty is a life threatening flogging or even death? I simply cannot believe the Matthew account of bribery.

a reply to: Seede

Thanks for a thorough exegesis into the course of events. Much obliged!

So to your last lines here, that you cannot believe the soldiers were bribed. I don't know what the normal salary for a common soldier or an officer was back then, but let's say that "one of the richest men in the Roman empire" could secure their entire future, just for looking the other way. They could take the money and bail, or they could send the money to their families and heroically take their punishment. "Soldier's pride" alone cannot account for doubting they were all payed under promise of eternal life and a star among the wisest and most influential men in the world. They would not fear death or torture, they were trained well for that, and a free ticket to a throne in Elysium, next to the lords of the world, well, as my grandfather who was a carpenter taught me, "nothing is impossible, the impossible just take more time and effort", and as in this case, I think: money. And like I showed earlier, Jesus already had a star among the Jerusalem garison. "Noone ever talked like this man" and even by the cross by the tongue of the Centurion himself: "Surely he was a son of the gods".


ETA: And like you say, Jesus and his disciples had years to plan for the crucifixion and groom and prepare allegiances.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

And to jmdewey60 -- Sorry, man, reading my post again just breaks my heart, you didn't deserve that, and I didn't mean it as a threat, OK, the smashing head part was empirical, though I WAS angry, but the choice of scenario was, well, agitated and an expression of frustration I should be able to control. Sorry.

But. Please understand I have trouble seeing how people can accept the murder of the Father, father of great heirs and heroes, bright and strong, and the husbond of Rosemary, who had to flee after Jesus strapped his skis on and went north , how can you say Jesus could never have been saved the way he was? How can you say that killing/sacrificing him or any other human, king, son of God or not-- brought even the tiniest bit of good into the world, and is somewhat good, right and acceptable? It's madness. And again, sorry for overreacting. it was inappropriate.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

. . . of the Father, father of great heirs and heroes, bright and strong, and the husbond of Rosemary . . .

There could have been a few people named Jesus at that time who became famous for one reason or another.
My thing is that the New Testament has one version, and I think it needs to be defined by that set of writings in particular, otherwise there is no connection any more to that specific person.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Ah, I see, I smell the rat: I ask you now, straight out, and please remember that the cup you fill, you must drink, and by your own measures-- as you love your neighbour and so on-- remember that you will have to live with your own justice, your rules you lay for the Lord, is the rule you will live with: Now: Why is it so bloody important that Jesus had to die? Why did he have to be unmarried? And why is it such an wicked idea that he had heirs and children? Why does everything have to be so God damn impossible? It certainly wasn't! Impossible. But this you believe is: IMPOSSIBLE!

a reply to: Seede

I do, after thinking through that last bit I replied to above, however, I do believe that Jesus didn't have to pay a single soldier a single shekel, their honour was his, they shared that honour at several occasions. I believe Jesus greatest supporters were found among Roman soldiers. Jesus wasn't the only one who left his grave that Passover week. A whole bunch of people did according to the gospel...

An may I thank you again for your apparent understanding and knowledge here.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Text So to your last lines here, that you cannot believe the soldiers were bribed. I don't know what the normal salary for a common soldier or an officer was back then, but let's say that "one of the richest men in the Roman empire" could secure their entire future, just for looking the other way. They could take the money and bail, or they could send the money to their families and heroically take their punishment.

As I said, you have a good point to consider and I am not saying that you are not right but look also at the way Rome controlled the military. The bribe would have to have been all the way to the top. Not saying it could not be done after looking at the way this government does that same thing.

I had considered that perhaps we are talking about temple guards here at the crucifixion but then after reading Luke’s account I realized that Luke named the one military man a centurion (Luke 23:47). That is very important in this discussion because I then realized that this was indeed a very important military matter.

“Bible History” “The Centurion” – quote “The backbone of the Roman army were the centurions. The centurions were legionaries and they were clearly noticed because they wore a special helmet, and a more ornate harness of much better quality. They carried a short vinewood staff as a symbol of rank. They worked their way up the ranks as soldiers, and were promoted for their dedication and courage. They were the veteran soldiers who commanded 100 men each, within a legion of 6,000. There were thus 60 centuries in a legion, each under the command of a centurion. During the time of Augustus there were 28 legions. During the time of Jesus the headquarters of the Roman army in Judea was located at Caesarea, on the Mediterranean coast. The centurion received pay that amounted to more than 20 times the ordinary soldiers pay, about 5,000 denarii per year. There were actually five senior centurions in a legion who received 10,000 denarii per year, and the chief centurion (the first javelin) received 20,000 denarii in pay annually. The common soldier received around 200-300 denarii per year.” unquote

The centurion was the man who set the watch. He would have verified the body of Jesus was dead. Perhaps by blinding the eyes with the fingers along with other methods. He would have had common soldiers roll the ½ to 1 ton stone to seal the tomb and then would have had his seal placed so that if the stone was removed the seal would be broken. Most generally this was bitumen or waxed substance with the centurion’s special identification embossed in the substance. Another method was to pour this asphalt in the track of the stone so that the stone would leave identification in being moved.

Now a failed watch is always a very serious matter and is most generally a result of the death of those on watch. This is the thing which has always puzzled me. We know that the watch was four guards which would mean that two men were always awake during that seventy two hour watch. And we also know that the centurion had to make a report to his superiors in case of a failed or completed watch. The question now is that why is history silent on this very thing? Why were the common soldiers free to be bribed by their subjected Temple Jews when they should have been executed for a failed watch? Why wasn’t Annas so enraged that he did not demanded some ones hide. After all he demanded that a murderer be freed instead of Jesus and he also almost caused a riot to get Jesus crucified. It doesn’t make sense to me that things are so vague.

This is one good reason that the you have a very valid cause of doubt. Even as a Christian I also doubt some of this very same happening.

Another point to consider. Pontius Pilate was a big man in the mix of Rome and tradition tells us that very little is actually recorded about him. His history is about as vague as Jesus’ history. The Jewish index tells us that Pilate had to have permission from the senate before any execution could take place. That was a protocol that was very strict and the reason it was very strict was that Rome was interested only in the tribute (revenue) from its subjects. If a procurator of a province did not protect that source of revenue and allowed or created dissention then it could disrupt the community and the revenue.

Now I read some time back that after the death of Jesus, Pilate was involved in a senate investigation for planning the death of Caesar and that the investigation came about as the result of his not having a senate consent for execution of Jesus. I am not sure but believe that Joseph of Arimathea used his influence and wealth to do both Pilate and the House of Annas as much harm as he could. Pilate was appointed to procurator by Tiberius and it was shortly after Jesus died (not more than five years) that Tiberius took deathly ill and recalled Pilate. Pilate was deposed by the very Caesar that appointed him. I am not aware of why Pilate was recalled except that tradition tells us that it was a punishment and eventual death of Pilate. Not sure about tthat.

Now regardless of whether you are right or wrong, most all must agree that there had to be some sort of conspiracy in this death of Jesus. Was the body removed by the military? Was there even a body sealed in the tomb and could it have been another shell game? Could the body lay in the tomb seventy two hours and then be revived? Was the body revived as you have described?

Here is my last thought. It is believed that Jesus died at about the ninth hour and that He was interred before the twelfth hour. That would leave only three hours for uncle Joe to claim the body take it down from the tree and do whatever was done. If you are correct then how was the necessary medical treatment carried out if Jesus was entombed for the next seventy two hours? His wounds must be treated to avoid infections etc.

originally posted by: Seede
Why were the common soldiers free to be bribed by their subjected Temple Jews when they should have been executed for a failed watch?

They were on their way to report to their centurion or they had just reported to him-- that Jesus' tomb was empty. The (corrupt) elders intervened and bribed them, into reporting that Jesus' disciples had stolen him, and that they would go free since they were influential and promised to work the puppets in order for them to go free that way. Not necessarily a bad thing, but what these lines of Mat 28:11-15 shows, is what we know all to well from other sources, that money did the talking in the Roman Empire as elsewhere those days. Nearly all Roman emperors were victims of deadly conspiracies, as when money and power ran dry. Roman legionaries were indeed proud and sworn in, well trained in, but they are humans like anyone else, and I don't believe Jesus got his help due to money or bribes, others working to save him, however, I believe were, let's say generous. AND. Jesus receives help from Roman legionaries several times, the "I am Legion" story is a funny one, where a whole legion shouts their unison allegiance or submissiveness, since Jesus in power as king and in effect a son of God using Christian terminology, "is the one who signs the law". And Jesus fulfills Legion's wishes, and they all run straight into death for the Son of God. That's a hint it's difficult to miss if you read the Bible with open eyes.

ETA: Have you come upon mentions of revolt or mass-execution of legionairs in Jerusalem-- Let's say between year 30 and 40 AD?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Why is it so bloody important that Jesus had to die?

It has to do with the Suffering Servant story in Isaiah 53.
In that story, the character dies and goes to judgment, and ends up in Heaven, though he had been killed as a sinner.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Why is it so bloody important that Jesus had to die?

It has to do with the Suffering Servant story in Isaiah 53.

And why is that a prophecy of Jesus? What makes you think the suffering servant is Jesus. Last time I checked he was the equivalent of a popstar and a rabbi of the rather loud kind, arms and legs everywhere. A man who received everything he pointed at, which is good of course. Which diseases did Jesus have? When reading about Jesus, things like suffering and diseases, well it isn't the first thing I come to think of when reflecting on Jesus. But I guess all that exposure to the cross has had you all mesmerized.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

And why is that a prophecy of Jesus? What makes you think the suffering servant is Jesus.

I don't think that whoever wrote that in the Isaiah scroll had Jesus in particular in mind.
It's a sort of parable where the character is a representative of Israel, having to do with the suffering caused by the invasions and conquests of their kingdoms by the imperial powers back in the time of the Assyrians and Babylonians.
But, the basic concept of suffering affliction without complaint and relying on an ultimate vindication by the supreme judge (also seen in the parable of Job) is something that connects with the story of Jesus.
He represents all righteous people, who try to do what is right but can't quite gain recognition from the world for it, because at the end of the day we are all just humans, and humans in general can be a rather imperfect lot.
Rather than putting on a big act to raise himself up as being praiseworthy by men, he humbles himself before them, hoping to the judgment by the One who knows men's hearts, for a glory unseen in this world.