It could be you up there...

a reply to: DarknStormy

Which points did you think were good? The OP brings nothing new to the table here, scholars have been dealing with such claims for century's and yet the evidence for Christ's resurrection has remained so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.

a reply to: RevelationGeneration

How is it that one group of people can undeniably say that the resurrection is 100% fact yet another group of people who live in the area Jesus was from say it is nothing but lies but agree that he was a Messenger of God? Which scholars have come to the conclusion that there is no doubt about the resurrection?

originally posted by: DarknStormy
a reply to: RevelationGeneration

How is it that one group of people can undeniably say that the resurrection is 100% fact yet another group of people who live in the area Jesus was from say it is nothing but lies but agree that he was a Messenger of God? Which scholars have come to the conclusion that there is no doubt about the resurrection?

Who is this "other group" that you speak of?

originally posted by: DarknStormy
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

What makes you think that European Royalty and the Secular world have anything to do with Jesus? If Jesus was the Son of God wouldn't you find it ridiculous that he would pave the way for a Godless political structure? If he was to return, is he just going to go with Democracy as his law of choice also? The Palestinians have a closer bloodline to Jesus than the Euro royals.

Well, it's quite obvious, don't you think? It may be a lie alltogether of course, but they sure put a lot of effort into it, don't you think, with myths, totems, laws and so on. Jesus says: "He who conquers...will be my son and I will be his God". The ones who conquer are called kings. Or politicians. I believe Jesus will establish a new kind of monarchic parliamentarism altogether, he's a smart guy, I bet he has quite a few plans as soon as we let him loose of the Churches' shackles.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Particularily widespread is the idea that Jesus was killed, not by the crucifixion itself, but that his heart was pierced by the Roman centurion's lance . . .

I don't know anyone who thinks that.

Well, look in this thread, there are already a few who mean that

The Gospel of John says that Jesus was already dead when the soldiers came to him to break his legs.
It doesn't say why one of them stabbed him, but I would assume that it was meant to prove that he was in fact already dead.
I suspect that you are reading some sort of Medieval mythology and accepting it as real history.

Like I said, to the iron age people if you stopped breathing you were concidered dead as a brick. But today we know better. Jesus was saved by the soldiers lance, it wasn't his death blow.

originally posted by: RevelationGeneration

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: RevelationGeneration

Why do you lie and make up crazy conspiracy theory's about our Lord and savior? What do you hope to gain from doing that?

Wow. I am being accused for the second time for conspiring to make a person live. That's a new one. Conspiracy is short for "conspiracy to murder" not "conspiracy to let live". Your own words speak against you. I'm disappointed.

It's a conspiracy theory akin to to those who claim 2pac and elvis presley never died, it's absurd.

That's not a conspiracy theory, it's a theory. Look up conspiracy and you will find that neither my theory here nor those who believe 2pac and Elvis are jamming in the suite of Chelsea Hotel have anything to do with conspiracies. You've got it the other way around. Hey, my thread was even moved from the conspiracy section into the theology department...

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: RevelationGeneration

May I just point out? If it was the OP's "bait" and youre telling others not to fall for it....you did...fall for it.

Touché!

a reply to: DarknStormy
(and a general reply to all)

You've hit the nail on the head when you said you just can't believe he rose 3 days later. That is the crux of this discussion. The resurrection is a wholly supernatural event. It is not within "these 4 walls". If it happened, and I think it did, there is no real explanation for it… at least not that our darkened minds(4 walls) can fathom.

That is the point, and I know that I start to sound like a broken record for those who have read my posts, but until we "lose our heads", there won't be "any place for the Son of Man to lay his HEAD". The egoic mind or adamic mind is darkened (crown of thorns), "you who were formerly enemies in mind… be reconciled". "even to this day when the Law is read a veil lies over their minds".

Put on the mind of Christ
Be TRANSFIGURED by the renewing of your mind
Christ is the HEAD of the body (the new jerusalem/bride/new man)

Just as Christ IS so are YOU in the world

I realize that for the hardcore atheist out there, this will never convince you of anything. But if you believe in anything supernatural, then the resurrection shouldn't be totally out of the question.

There are MANY 'problems' with the resurrection for many people. These are often tied up with misconceptions, fables, biases, mistranslations, you know the reason there are 30000 denominations reading from one book. I'm not surprised at all by good people like my friend Utnapistim looking for rational answers, and he might be right, or there may be some other rational answer.

OR the answer is "out there", outside of the boundaries of our matrix (the projected reality of the limited "natural"), the "invisible things" the hyper reality. According to string theory we already exist in more than the 4 dimensions we are "aware" of. I submit you have to suspend rational 4 dimensional thinking to observe the resurrection.

This suspending the rational isn't totally not thinking, but submitting to the Mind of Christ, the very Mind of God. The easterners saw this as "we are one", when you get in tune with the Vibration of the universe. This is the Mind of Christ. This is the resurrection. The rebirth into the Hyper-Reality. Now its "in-part" not the whole (we are coming to the end of the wilderness phase), all creation is still Groaning in Labor pains for the "unveiling of the SONS OF GOD".

Have you seen the Truman Show, the movie with Jim Carrey where he's inside a tv studio and doesn't know it, but finally sails through a storm and all obstacles to reach the edge of reality, which looks like it goes on but is just a clever paint job (the matrix/veiled mind/wool pulled over the eyes)? What does he do? knocks on the wall and a door opens, and he is born into the real world.

I hope no offense is taken when I speak of darkened mind, for it is not just "unbelievers" or people who don't exactly see things the way I do. I carry around this dead man with me too. Ego, pride, selfishness, un-lovingness towards others, condemnation are all a battle daily for me. These are all manifestations of the Carnal Mind, the mind of the Beast, the mind of Adam. We daily put to death the deeds of the flesh, this only happens by submitting to the Spirit, love, joy, peace patience etc etc, putting on the Mind of Christ, walking according to the Spirit.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: zardust

"The king is dead. Long live the king!"

When I say Jesus lives, even today, I am not nessasarily thinking of the person who lived in Gallilee about 2000 years ago, but that he endured and survived crucifixion, in order to establish the bloodline that is alive today, after making it's way into, or rather paving the way for-- European royalty and a secular branch who eventually sparked the renaissance and parliamentarism securing the freedom principles we take for granted these days. As our books is a corpus written in the blood of saints and prophets, our Lord is one of highly physical presence. Today one highly flesh-and-blood live and kicking heir honoured Norwegian veterans for instance. Behind every spirit is a corpus. It's just explaining the physics involved which is so hard to make out: How can what you think be heard by people who were dead before you were even born? And are you really sure your body is truely yours? Could it be that some times your body is occupied by another spirit while your spirit rests in dreams where two days can pass in a few seconds?

I dig what you're saying, though I'd like you to elucidate the last few sentences for me. I think I understand you but not quite.

Here's how I see what you're laying down:

What I highlighted in red (for blood) is what I see as the Flesh/Adam/Beast. That is mankind's empire. The kingdom that Jesus said his was not of. The green is the Logos, "the Lord/Logos is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Liberty". Just as the chaff is to the grain, or the wood hay and stubble to gold, silver and precious jewels.

The mind of flesh/adam/red/earth which is the source of the kingdom of the Beast, with its whore church that promotes separation, Priest vs. Layman, Royal vs. Peasant, Congressmen, Senators, Kings, Popes, men who place themselves above other men. This is the chaff, the wood hay and stubble, the veil.

For me any bloodline is null and void through the physical reproduction process. That is the seed of Adam, the old man, or Cain the murderer, or Esau (also called adam/Edom) the hairy one(the goat skin veil), or Saul the man who was a "head above the rest of Israel/Carnal Mind", or Hagar the bondwoman, or the Law on Stone (of sin and death), Or the earthly Jerusalem, also called Sodom and egypt or Mystery Babylon.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

. . . to the iron age people if you stopped breathing you were considered dead . . .

According to your hypothesis, Jesus would not have been able to talk, but he is described in the same version of the story where you get the spear thrust from, talking to observers and making a general exclamation.
Also the supposed injury that caused his condition would have been a broken rib, but this same gospel states that his legs were not broken because this fulfilled the scriptural requirement of not one of his bones being broken.

originally posted by: zardust

OR the answer is "out there", outside of the boundaries of our matrix (the projected reality of the limited "natural"), the "invisible things" the hyper reality. According to string theory we already exist in more than the 4 dimensions we are "aware" of. I submit you have to suspend rational 4 dimensional thinking to observe the resurrection.

Well, it is "out there". Kabalah (and quantum physics) speaks of 10 (11 with Daath or Ether) dimentions. Each linear dimention is a mechanical space, so instead of length, depth and height + time (4D space-time), we have 3 x length, 3 x depth and 3x height + time (and added the ever elusive spacetime challenging ether or spirit as the eleventh). Also, in mathmatics we can make use of thousands of dimentions, where things like acceleration and curvature become extra (pen and paper-) dimentions. And then we have of course the fact that we are living in a multiverse reality. Walking from home to the store I can be a million people sharing my point in reality. Sometimes I can even get sick, since I may welcome others than myself into my reality, so my spirit all of a sudden is in another body for a fraction of time, and this person is not my height, so I get kind of carsick at times. Nice to suddenly have boobs, but use your heels wisely, ladies It's not as much 'Truman's Show' as it is 'Being John Malchowitz' (¿sp?). Atleast to me.

This suspending the rational isn't totally not thinking, but submitting to the Mind of Christ, the very Mind of God. The easterners saw this as "we are one", when you get in tune with the Vibration of the universe. This is the Mind of Christ. This is the resurrection. The rebirth into the Hyper-Reality. Now its "in-part" not the whole (we are coming to the end of the wilderness phase), all creation is still Groaning in Labor pains for the "unveiling of the SONS OF GOD".

Like we have two main processors (hemispheres) in our CPU (brains) and like we have real life and dreams, everything physical has a spiritual side, it's what makes us concious lifeforms (Heb. Chavah or plural Chavaim or something like that, almost identical to Eve- Chevah meaning 'life'), and what started us off with science and religion in the first place. So yes, it's not either sense or non-sense, or rational - spiritual, it's both and not one without the other. When we die, we can move on to possess any material body, a man, a goat, or a mountain, a tree or the universe you once knew.

I hope no offense is taken when I speak of darkened mind, for it is not just "unbelievers" or people who don't exactly see things the way I do. I carry around this dead man with me too. Ego, pride, selfishness, un-lovingness towards others, condemnation are all a battle daily for me. These are all manifestations of the Carnal Mind, the mind of the Beast, the mind of Adam. We daily put to death the deeds of the flesh, this only happens by submitting to the Spirit, love, joy, peace patience etc etc, putting on the Mind of Christ, walking according to the Spirit.

Too bad we have to use disclaimers in (especially) the religious department of this site. It's a free world. As long as people work to sustain that freedom. Freedom of speech and the right to an opinion becomes a matter of life and death, good or evil-- in certain people's minds. We are not dealing with sense and science here, but rules, conduct, presendence, authority, doctrine and dogma. It's a shame. I can't wait for the religious renaissance. When Science and Religion becomes one, and people finally see how they are two sides of the same hand.

Keep up the good work, your contribution here is much obliged.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

. . . to the iron age people if you stopped breathing you were considered dead . . .

According to your hypothesis, Jesus would not have been able to talk, but he is described in the same version of the story where you get the spear thrust from, talking to observers and making a general exclamation.

I was screaming my lungs out one syllable at a time until I passed out and they "ressurrected" me (through science and love). AND instead of going ad homine over a medical diagnosis, I suggest you check up what I wrote with a physician or a surgeon. Or simply read through my sources and believe when people tell of personal experiences instead of goin all antichrist and refute reality for your dream. Jesus WAS dead, according to iron-age medicine. Since then we have developed medical science to the extent that a good friend of mine was braindead for nearly an hour, but was revived and now has a family, thanks to him crashing his car and drowning in an ice cold lake. Again, you assume too much. What is magic and miracles to the meek is science and knowledge to the wise. You want to inherit the world, not the Kingdom of God, my friend. No need in fighting windmills.

Also the supposed injury that caused his condition would have been a broken rib, but this same gospel states that his legs were not broken because this fulfilled the scriptural requirement of not one of his bones being broken.

Again, thank god you're not my GP, if you had read my OP and actually read through my sources or looked up the kind of pneumathorax I was talking about (tension pneumothorax) no bones or any object is needed for the lung to burst and collapse. When I was beaten senseless by gravity and the Earth, my lung burst from the trauma of impact itself, like how a balloon bursts if you squeeze it enough. It was kind of a miracle I didn't break my neck or crushed my skull or even a few ribs, but for my lung, all my bones were intact. You assume too much.

Text Well I wouldn't go that far because some of what s/he says brings up some good points and I cannot bring myself to believe that he came back from the dead three days later either. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Jesus was three days and three nights in the center of the earth testifying to the justified in Sheol so I don't think He had much more time to be dead three days and three nights in a tomb. It sounds as though you do not understand death or resurrection.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

When I was beaten senseless by gravity and the Earth, my lung burst from the trauma of impact itself, . . .

OK then, what sort of impact was it that did this sort of damage to Jesus?
And what similar experiences did Roman soldiers have like this on the battlefield?

originally posted by: zardust

I believe he literally died, NOT at the hands of God, NOT as a sacrifice to God, for God does NOT require sacrifices or take delight in them, :

good points ZD
Yes….Yahoshua was killed because of what men(specifically the religious Jewish leaders) thought of him.The creator God did not "sacrifice" Yahoshua like a pagan ritual.

originally posted by: zardust
BUT as a sacrifice to the god of this world (the Beast Mind/Carnal Mind), by his followers. The mind of man believes that God is vengeful, and angry and jealous, and will kill and destroy. The mind of man believed their god told them to commit genocide on the caananites. .:

Yes….The carnal religious mind is the adversary…satan.It is not an evil entity or being it is the "my God"(themselves) of everyone's religion they believe in through their Belief System.Yahoshua made this very clear when he told Peter's "satan" to get behind him on this very subject.

originally posted by: zardust
The mind of man believes that when Jesus comes back he's gonna be kicking' ace and taking names. The mind of man believes that Jesus is coming back in a flesh body.

Yes…The carnal religious mind loves violence and vengeance because that is the nature of religion to "war" against what they don't know.However the only war that is being fought is the principalities and powers of the darkness which is the war between mans ears in their religious carnal mind.

originally posted by: zardust
For me the resurrection has nothing to do with a literal body, but the raising up of the Tsar, Zar, Zer, Crown, Prince, Head, Rosh, Logos in ME… and you. The Logos become flesh, Tabernacling in Us. When the time has come to completion (40 weeks, 40 years, 40 days) then the head will crown (medical terminology in birthing) and fully born as the New man.

The basis of the process of salvation was laid out in the parable of the seed and soils."The seed" is the "living"word of the creator God(Yahoshua..Yahweh IS salvation/deliverance) Unless a seed dies it cannot bear fruit.It is "like" human conception from a seed(spermatozoon) to a zygote to an embryo to a fetus to the "crowning" birth of deliverance of the new man.That is the process of salvation.Yahoshua is delivering ALL of mankind from the realm of death.However NONE have been "saved" past tense.Physical death must come first and then deliverance from the realm of death.The most that is going on in the physical realm is conception …None have been born anew it is only the "earnest"(the beginning down payment) of the new "spirit"(life)

**ATTENTION**

Discuss the TOPIC not each other.

Any further insults or 'gate keeping' behavior regarding this topic ( which means to try and prevent members from posting in any sort of fashion) will result in posting bans.

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ATS Super Mod

originally posted by: Seede

Text Well I wouldn't go that far because some of what s/he says brings up some good points and I cannot bring myself to believe that he came back from the dead three days later either. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Jesus was three days and three nights in the center of the earth testifying to the justified in Sheol so I don't think He had much more time to be dead three days and three nights in a tomb. It sounds as though you do not understand death or resurrection.

What can I say. LOVE.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

When I was beaten senseless by gravity and the Earth, my lung burst from the trauma of impact itself, . . .

OK then, what sort of impact was it that did this sort of damage to Jesus?
And what similar experiences did Roman soldiers have like this on the battlefield?

How about being beat with batters with him holding his breth like any sensible one would do. Have you ever been severly beaten? With sticks and stones or rods and clubs?

originally posted by: Rex282


Yahoshua like a pagan ritual.

Agreed. And don't feel this is personal in any way:

THIS is my point. To the usual Christian, every part of his "Paschion" is vital for their survival. They are sick and they need our lord to live. They are like mice wanting to live through the cat's night out. Jesus survived all your cats. And the MICE. Jesus is used to your kind. He hates you, but he has to live with you. You pay his rent.