Will you dodge the draft?

Firstly, I am not yet of the minimum age to serve in the US military, but I will be soon. And I have seen suicide bombs go off with my own eyes more than once, and have a cousin serving in the military of his country, and he lost a hand to shrapnel against the rebels. Hence, while my life certainly has not seen the kind of death and destruction that American soldiers witness on a daily basis right now, once upon a time, my childhood included wondering where next weeks suicide bomber was going to hit. A large group of them almost killed my mother in 1996. Thus, I am not a total stranger to death and destruction either.

I am not going to argue for or against the campaign in Iraq. Many members here seem to state that they would die for their country, but not for President Bush. I understand where they're coming from, even though I don't agree with it. However, I am here to state that one should not dodge the draft even if one disagrees to the war being fought.

Firstly, dodging the draft only means that some other poor slob will get sent in your place, most likely someone not priviliged enough to get a deferrement. In times of crisis, who fights and who doesn't will come down therefore not to a strong, principled belief against the war, but simply one's money and/or connections.

Secondly, and this is the most important reason, dodging the draft does long-term damage to the country when it happens in large numbers. Whether one believes in ones government or not, the largest threats to a country come from entities other than the government. They do not care that the population strongly disagrees with the government. All they care is that when the government called, its citizens refused to fight. Whatever your causes for not fighting, your enemy will see it as a sign of national weakness - and that encourages 'paper tiger' thinking, which leads to an undermining of your nation's overseas interests and domestic security by groups who believe that the nation will not rally against them.

Also, mass draft-dodging creates a sense of national gloom. These draft dodgers become people who are not keen to advertise their existence, and this causes resentment within the community. Furthermore, it reduces national confidence in the strength of the current generation, much like what occured in the United States during the Vietname years. This will reduce the effectiveness of future war efforts, regardless of the righteousness of the cause.

People must always keep the bigger picture in mind, and that is of the future. One's love of country and one's legal obligation as a citizen are not as separable as one may want it to be. I am not trying to force my personal beliefs down anyone's throat here. I merely believe that America is worth dying for, even when it is wrong. However, to those who disagree with that statement, I ask that you consider that dodging the draft may hurt America when such a time comes as you might feel it is worth dying for.

Draft�are you daft? Unless there is a MAJOR conflict with a MAJOR world power we won�t be needing any drafts.

I have stated many times on this board and will state again: The military HATES draftees. They do not improve the fighting ability of our forces. Much better to motivate people to volunteer. Heck, did you know they will spend very little chasing down draft dodgers? They don�t have time for it. They don�t even spend much time / effort on AWOL soldiers�again�if you really don�t want to be there they would rather not have you when the bullets start to fly.

If you get a draft notice, just sit at home and ignore your phone and any knocking at your door (you probably won�t get any knocking at your door btw). The military will simply put a little check next to your name and you�ll get no federal benefits (student loans, etc) until you turn yourself in. Wait until the war is over, turn yourself in, and take your dishonorable discharge and then upgrade it to a general discharge in a year�you�ll get your benefits back then.

IF the military really needs more soldiers they will simply up the re-enlistment and sign-up bonuses (which they are doing now for infantry type MOS�s) or change the way they handle overseas rotations etc..

The biggest issue I hear from my Marine friends is the accelerated rotation. It�s killing family life. The combat is not what is bothering most of them, it�s the extended time away from wives and children. The Marines will probably have to add at least one more MEU to their ranks to slow down rotation cycles.

Draft�bah�a boogieman started by the DNC to panic the ignorant�

That's an interesting position you've got there Archangel76.


But the fact that a person wants to resist the government's draft is usually a sign that he/she doesn't care how the current regime/structure looks in the international eye.

They want the system to change, as the current method isn't worth dieing for, and dieing for the sake of "national pride" or to dispel "gloom" isn't gonna cut it.


I'm afraid it's broader than that. I appreciate your line of thinking, but seems too general.

X

[Edit- MrNice - I believe that the original poster was requesting that we assume, for the sake of discussion that there were to be a draft. I also got from his initial post that he didn't want posts stating " yes, a draft is coming, I have seen it in the cards" or "Draft are you daft? Ignorant people believe in drafts."

I think his original post is asking: Presuming there were a draft, would you dodge or not?

X

[edit on 29-11-2004 by Xatnys]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
WWII was pulling people in at all ages up to 35.
I'm sure if this war on terrorism was to get to that
level

Its well nigh immpossible for the War on Terror to become like WWII. None of the 'Terror States' have the capabilities of the axis, hell, only one or two of them have an actual standing army thats worth its salt. And while the Koreans have a million man army on the DMZ, they have no power projection capabilities. If the Terror War triggers WWIII, between actual Global Power States, then something like a draft would begin to make sense. Keep in mind however that the British controlled the largest Empire in history, holding nearly, what, a quarter of the globe itself, with an all volunteer army.

but they seem to
have forgotten that if they don't go to war to defend
America there won't be a constitution to protect them.

Since when is bin ladin or any of the terror chiefs a threat to the constitution itself? They are a threat to the american public, and should be destroyed, but they aren't going to invade the US and install a tyranny.

xatnys
I will resist as publicly as I can.

Hard to get media coverage tho when you are in jail, wouldn't you agree? Dodging the draft is illegal, and results in jail time, unless one flees to canada, and I doubt that the draft dodgers will be 'forgiven' and allowed back in like last time.

Besides, this is all rather silly. A draft will not be installed to beef up manpower in iraq. A draft will be installed if the US is under threat, say a north korean and chinese alliance starts invading taiwan and south korea, or if a pan-islamic alliance rises up between saudi, iran, syria, egypt, indonesia, pakistan (and the other 'stans) and actually some how creates an effective traditional fighting force. This is simply not likely to happen. Drafts are for getting large numbers of troops mobilized, large numbers of poorly trained (certainly less trained than current volunteers) conscripts are simply not useful in any sort of reasonable situation. And if it ever comes down to there being a need for a draft, its going to be from such a serious 'traditional/main battle line' threat that anyone dodging it will have to be shot in the head immeadiately. IE it would have to be a matter of national survival, not the application of foreign policy or even mere 'national security'.

Hard to get media coverage tho when you are in jail, wouldn't you agree? Dodging the draft is illegal, and results in jail time, unless one flees to canada, and I doubt that the draft dodgers will be 'forgiven' and allowed back in like last time.

I would resist the draft the moment it was instituted, not the moment I got called up, or the moment it affected me or my loved ones.

Is that so hard to understand? It's not always about self. Resist something if you don't believe in it, but do so from the get go, not just because it affects you.

No when my "number" was up, I'd probably have to go into the shadows, but by then I may have changed others hearts and minds, and maybe 10 others could stand and do the same.

Common sense that you'd not want to be jail-bait, isn't it?

On a side note, if I were brought before a court on it, I would be as vocal as I could. I'd try to get any non-slanted media there to hear me when I could speak. Just because you're busted, doesn't mean you should stop fighting for others.


Finally, the original poster is not asking if we think there will be a draft. Only what would "you" do if there were.


X

[Edit DrHoracid-

To all of those who would post your willingness to dodge the draft, please also post your name and address. It will make life a little easier on the police.

And I presume you'd be first to "drop the dime", is that correct? Bush and Co. would just love you, you're a true product of their system. Congrats, I hope you don't end up choking on that pride some day. Good luck to you.

X

[edit on 29-11-2004 by Xatnys]

To all of those who would post your willingness to dodge the draft, please also post your name and address. It will make life a little easier on the police.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by FlyersFan
but they seem to have forgotten that if they don't go
to war to defend America there won't be a constitution
to protect them.

Since when is bin ladin or any of the terror chiefs a threat to the constitution itself? They are a threat to the american public, and should be destroyed, but they aren't going to invade the US and install a tyranny.

They became a threat to the constitution itself when they declared
war on America and swore to destroy it. And yes, they already
have invaded America. 9/11 was an act of war carried out by their
people who had invaded America, some had invaded years before
the event. There are estimated thousands of them living in America
- those 'sleeper cells'. I know some folks have their heads in the sand
when it comes to this war on terror. Even though 9/11 happened,
even though UBL has sworn to destroy America, even though there
are terrorist cells in America (yes, it has been proven ... look at Buffalo),
some folks still don't see this War on Terror as being as serious as
it actually is. Not to defend America from them is to invite them in
to destroy us, our way of life, and our constitution. Definately.

In my opinion I would avoid the draft not because i am a coward but because why die for two goverment hell bent on creating the next war. Bush is oil greedie and Tony blair just wants his name in the history books.

I can see why the war was required in Iraq maybe there has been no weapons found but they way Iraqie ppl have been treated and killed by there own president was in need of a regime change but it is obvious bushes main reason was for oil and money, to secure oil reserves for the US.

I will not fight for black Gold for a war mungerer like Bush and his pupet

(Im Scottish by way and support the black watch and other UK forces even if i dont agree with it after all they are the protector of our nation)

Im 34 and I would go if asked. I wouldnt want to, I dont believe in this particular war, but Id go. Id go because damned if Im going to stay home and be safe while my fellow Americans are getting shot at who also didnt want to be there but went. Shame on the American who doesnt go when asked.

Its bigger than believing in the war, its bigger than a protest. The cold hard fact is its going on and your fellow countrymen (and women) are there in peril. And shame on any American who tries to avoid being asked by thier country to fight, even if you disagree. I wouldnt do it for my country in THIS war, I would do it for my peer's. If they are out thier getting shot to pieces I want to be there helping them shoot back.

I would go for my fellow Americans.

Its like a big brother thing. Your little brother may go out and start a fight, maybe even deserves to get a good whooping, but you wont let it happen. You deffend your own. Ain't nobody going to touch him as long as you have anything to do with it.

Anyways, im there if I get asked. In the mean time I have a family to support...

Originally posted by Xatnys
Is that so hard to understand?

When the hell did i say it was hard to understand? If you are called up and don't go, you go to jail. If you burn your draft card and refuse to register, you have committed a crime. If you call on others to do so, you have also commited a crime. What is so hard to understand about that?



It's not always about self. Resist something if you don't believe in it, but do so from the get go, not just because it affects you.

No when my "number" was up, I'd probably have to go into the shadows
And remain there for the rest of your life, a criminal on the lamb from the law, literally. Because when the draft is over and the war is over, that doesn't mean that draft dodgers aren't still sought after or that some statute of limitations has run out. After vietnam, the president himself had to pardon en mass everyone who fled the country and dodged the draft, otherwise they'd still be pursused to this day.

On a side note, if I were brought before a court on it, I would be as vocal as I could. I'd try to get any non-slanted media there to hear me when I could speak.

What makes you think that the judge presiding is going to allow media in the court room or will allow the trial to become a soapbox? They can put a gag order on you and your lawyers and anyone associated with the case.

flyersfan
They became a threat to the constitution itself when they declared
war on America and swore to destroy it

They are,. however, incapable of accomplishing this. Their threat on that level is bravado, not an actual danger.

And yes, they already
have invaded America.

I am well aware that the US has been invaded. My point, however, was that its by a limited number of agents, not an combined arms landing on NY and Oregon with amphibious assault vehicles storming out of the gulf and seizing miami and parts of texas. WWII was a war between nations and the entire might of their unified industrial military complexes, with masses of warfleets measured in tonnages, factories pumping out tanks and armoured vehicles and fleets of war plants careening across continents to fire bomb whole cities. That necessitated a draft. The war on terror is not a war wherein nation clashes with nation in death struggles. The enemy is made up almost entirely of irregular infantry and terror cells, not battallions bivouaced in the field with mile long logistical supply lines and mines and factories working behind the lines to create and supply them.

Not to defend America from them is to invite them in
to destroy us, our way of life, and our constitution

i entirely and respectfully disagree. They claim that they seek to destroy the US, but this of course is not possible, they have no army to field. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be fought or taken as serious, but they simply are not capable of overthrowing the federal government in the United States. The very idea is rather silly. They are a threat, and a serious one, but they are not a threat to national survival in the way the nazis or soviets were.

When the hell did i say it was hard to understand? If you are called up and don't go, you go to jail. If you burn your draft card and refuse to register, you have committed a crime. If you call on others to do so, you have also commited a crime. What is so hard to understand about that?

It seems it�s pretty hard for you to understand. You�re implying that I would be taking my �stand� when I was already a wanted person. The thought never crossed your mind that I would be resisting well before my �number was ever called up. So obviously, you didn�t understand it. So again, obviously, your statements made it clear you didn�t understand.

And remain there for the rest of your life, a criminal on the lamb from the law, literally. Because when the draft is over and the war is over, that doesn't mean that draft dodgers aren't still sought after or that some statute of limitations has run out. After vietnam, the president himself had to pardon en mass everyone who fled the country and dodged the draft, otherwise they'd still be pursused to this day

Maybe, maybe not. Is that a possibility? Yes. Is it worth it to me, to stand up and resist a system I would not support? If I had to go to a gulag, but I got my thoughts out there, and even changed 1 mind, then I�d be happy.

Is that hard for you to understand as well?

What makes you think that the judge presiding is going to allow media in the court room or will allow the trial to become a soapbox? They can put a gag order on you and your lawyers and anyone associated with the case.

My my, what a pessimistic, linear thinker you seem to be. I can write letters to every newspaper I can find, can�t I?
Gag order?
I can send letters with my friends and family, have them publish them on the web, can�t I? I can have friends and family get together and lobby various news sources so that I may be granted an interview wherever I�m confined, can�t I?

You need to enhance the scope of your thought.

Your scope of life is too small. I�m not going to live in fear, not fear of the government, not fear instilled by individuals such as you. If I had to write a hundred letters a day to get only 3 printed in various newspapers, I�d do it. That�s my stand, and you can attack my stance as much as you like, but since I believe so strongly in it, it is your own failure, not mine.



So now, I guess the question is:

WAS THAT TOO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?

Shouldn�t be.

X

I'll just claim to be homosexual. That'll keep me alive and out of the army

Originally posted by Nygdan

flyersfan
They became a threat to the constitution itself when they declared
war on America and swore to destroy it

They are,. however, incapable of accomplishing this. Their threat on that level is bravado, not an actual danger.

They are incapable of accomplishing this ... BECAUSE Americans are
willing to defend America. It is because people stand up and defend
America. THAT is why the terrorists are not (at this time) capable
of following through on their threat. What would have happened if
we had done nothing after 9/11? What if we hadn't taken the war
to them? UBL would have had legions of terrorists knocking down
the door to his cave begging to make war on us. The terrorists are
incapable of taking down America (at this time) because Americans
were willing to stand up and take action against the aggressor. They
didn't run away and hide while quoting the Constitution that they
refuse to defend.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Not to defend America from them is to invite them in
to destroy us, our way of life, and our constitution

i entirely and respectfully disagree. They claim that they seek to destroy the US, but this of course is not possible, they have no army to field. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be fought or taken as serious, but they simply are not capable of overthrowing the federal government in the United States. The very idea is rather silly. They are a threat, and a serious one, but they are not a threat to national survival in the way the nazis or soviets were.

I also entirely and respectfully disagree. They do indeed have an
army to field. Fundamentalist Wahabbism is a HUGE growing cult
('religion'). Saudi Arabia is full of unemployed, uneducated, young
Wahabbi men who are angry and who are being indoctrinated in
Mosques to hate and to overthrow - at any cost - Israel and America.
Their leaders have already declared war on America. Every time they
go into their mosques they hear the death to America chant. They
have the $$$ and the people to obtain WMD and Nukes (plenty of
them lying around after the Soviet breakup). N. Korea has no problem
selling them WMD and nukes.

If as you say 'They claim that they seek to destroy the US, but this of
course is not possible' ... that statement is only possible to make
because Americans are willing to stand up to the menace and to take
the war to the terrorists. If we do nothing ... if we sit back and say
they aren't serious about our destruction ... if we quote the Constitution
and yet aren't willing to stand up for it ... we are indeed doomed.
Thank God there are still Americans who will stand up to these threats,
or else the terrorists would grow, emboldened by our nonaction and
draft-dodging, and America as we know it would indeed be destroyed.





[edit on 11/29/2004 by FlyersFan]

A draft, would never, ever happen in the UK. We're a little more civilised than that, I for one abhore violence, so would refuse to fight.

Originally posted by Reverie
I'll just claim to be homosexual. That'll keep me
alive and out of the army

Best not vote for Hillary in 2008 then.

hmmmm ... come to think of it, the Republican
front runner at this point, Rudy Guiliani, is likely
to lift that ban as well.

Guess you'll have to come up with something else.
Nice try though.

Originally posted by RedDragon
Don't turn this into a debate. But, if you are in the U.S.A or U.K and are male or female 18-26 years of age, post whether you will dodge the draft or not when it comes.

How many times do we have to remind people that THERE IS NO DRAFT? The only draft proposal put to a vote in congress was presented by Charles Rangle and Ted Kennedy (both Democrats...how odd) and not even THEY voted AGAINST it when it came time to vote. In a comedy twist, they BOTH said it just their "form of protest" against the "Bush war".

Puh-leazze!! The Democrats passed the last draft, and pushed for a similar draft in 1990.

Need I remind the public that IT WAS THE REPUBLICANS WHO DISOLVED THE LAST DRAFT??

As for whether or not I'd dodge any draft my answer is a resounding NO! If you understand who we're fighting and why, it helps. However, to those who think the French have the right idea...that all wars end in failure...ask yourself this question:

WHY DID THEY START THE VIETNAM WAR TO BEGIN WITH??

Then ask this question:

IF THEY'RE SOOO OPPOSED TO WAR...WHAT THE HECK ARE THEY DOING IN iVORY COAST??

[edit on 29-11-2004 by Toelint]

Originally posted by Toelint
However, to those who think the French have the right idea...that all wars end in failure...ask yourself this question:

IF THEY'RE SOOO OPPOSED TO WAR...WHAT THE HECK ARE THEY DOING IN iVORY COAST??

News reports indicate 'what the heck they are doing' is that they
are massacreing and beheading civilians at an astounding rate.

*see previous ATS threads with videos and pictures.

I would accept the draft if our country were under immediate threat by the enemy and our homeland was under direct attack. I couldnt live with myself by dodging the draft and leaving my loved ones stranded behind.

I would sacrifice my life to protect my family.

But in the case of a WWIII breaking out in the middle east because of our new texan foreign policy, then i would dodge the draft and leave my family.

Im 17 1/2 so i can be drafted and no, i wouldn't go. i'd kill myself first. I saw what was happening in Iraq with the Ammunition Bush is using in his tanks. The Depleted Uranium shells the US (i'm not sure if the UK are using them, they may be i dunno. u tell me!) are using are causing the same damage that Chernobyl is causing but over a wider area. There has been a 65% increase in cancer patients from veterans in the first gulf war. I'll sit that one out thanks