John Kerry on religion: "Not the Way I Think Most People Want to Live"

originally posted by: pleasethink
a reply to: windword

I propose what my dad proposed to me: If I am wrong, and I live my life according to the morals present in the Law, do I lose anything upon death? Will my life of happiness and contentment lead me to feeling dismayed? Will my life somehow not possess the value of others who did not follow it? The answer to all three is no.

Now consider this: if in fact I am right, and the Bible is the word of G-d, I have everything to gain, as the Bible refers to a resurrection, a being made new. A new heaven, a new earth. And fellowship with the most beautiful, precious spirit.

Therefore, I lose nothing. I gain everything. Literally. So what is it to you? Why the hatefulness? Have I personally wronged you? Do you know who I am, even? If you don't, consider why you would so passionately despise a believer. What is it that cause you to feel this way? I'll give you a quote from Mathew:

"You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Consider that, in this way, you have confirmed the Bible's authenticity.

Have a nice day.

That's called a self-fulfilling prophecy. All religions rely on them, especially Judeo-Christian mythology. Jesus is presenting a false reality that will undoubtably become "true", simply by anyone questioning "the word".

The self-fulfilling prophecy is, in the beginning, a false definition of the situation evoking a new behaviour which makes the original false conception come true. This specious validity of the self-fulfilling prophecy perpetuates a reign of error. For the prophet will cite the actual course of events as proof that he was right from the very beginning.

So, no . . . that is not confirmation of authenticity. It's called a good con and confirmation bias for believers.

As for your rationale for belief . . . that is such an old and silly justification for faith. To you, there is "nothing to lose" because you already choose to believe and participate in the faith.

To a non-believer; you lose money (whether given to the church or purchasing the tools of faith, as Christianity is BIG business); you lose time wasted in church, prayer meetings, bible study, watching/listening/reading faith based media; you lose curiosity for the natural world, as all is already explained (god did it, answers in the bible) - I know some believers and non-believers will deny it, but there really is a conflict between science and religion. Science attempts to explain things as we find them, through discovery, observation, and experimentation. Religion attempts to explain things by simply saying "god's will" or citing unproven claims of divine revelation. The two are not nearly compatible and when in the habit of accepting things based on authority of an ancient book or a church leader, scientific curiosity suffers . . . Which leads us to the most important thing you lose, actually the world loses, is children being taught things that are probably not true (religion) in place of things that probably are true (science).

As far as "everything to gain" . . . How do you know that Hinduism isn't the true way? Or Islam? Or Egyptian? By your rationale, it would be equally valid to throw your hat in their rings, as well. Furthermore, you are operating on faith that you have received the "true word" and are worshiping correctly. If you have not . . . you still go to hell, right? So, you don't have "everything to gain by being right" if you simply have the right god . . . but not the right tribute.

The whole thing is a circular argument that only works on someone that refuses to really think it through . . . just like every other justification for faith in the bible.

a reply to: adjensen

He's entitled to his thoughts, and I'm entitled to my right to live as I wish. At the end of the day, I win. I fail to see how anyone can dignify his viewpoint with any degree of seriousness.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: DrinkMoreWater

Everything God said would happen either has happened (even the really specific stuff, like Israel), is happening now (like the temple being built in Israel), or will happen soon. Some of the stuff that just happened, and is happening now, he told us would happen - over 2,000 years ago.

Everything happens in cycles. What has happened will happen again. There is nothing new under the sun. In an infinite universe, nothing only happens once.

Christians love their drama, and love to look toward the end the of the world. They hope and pray for the destruction of civilization and the bloody battle of Armageddon.

Matthew 24
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Do you know what happened in 70AD? The Siege of Jerusalem, of the Jewish Wars. Do you know what happened in 79AD? The Destruction of Pompeii

It's time for Christians to move on. Jesus' prophecy already happened. Revelations already happened.

for the ignorant among us, how DOES armageddon happen?

do you think we just die out slowly?

the sun swells and engulfs the earth in 5 billion years?

gamma ray burst from alpha centauri?

any way you cut it, we won't live forever, here.

originally posted by: amazing
On the surface. I agree. I don't want to live in an old testament, Christian world either.

I don't want a world where we HATE people for no reason.
I don't want a world where women are supposedly less then men. Second class citizens.
I don't want a world where young earth creationism is given priority over Science.
I don't want a world where we only care about our on flocks and we have deadly wars against other sects of our religions. Protestants and Catholics killing each other.
I don't want a world were I'm judged by other people because I've "sinned"
I don't want that world. Kerry is right.

why do you hate christians?
tell islam.
why listen to that crap? i guess you believe everything you are told, eh?
why not tell the sunni's that?
tell that to islam.
kerry is an idiot.

originally posted by: buster2010
a reply to: edmc^2

So to lump ALL Christian religions into one as "held[ing] mankind back more than any other religion" is really ignorance on your part.

Maybe you should do a little research on just how much Christianity has done to deny scientific research over the ages.

yeah, we all keep hearing that, please document.

where is my flying car?

originally posted by: Everlastingknowitall

originally posted by: windword


In my opinion, your entire post exemplifys Kerry position of individual interpretations of 1000 to 2000 year old plus text trying to tell the rest of us what to think and how to think. You want to emphasize division as if it's divine because the Bible says so.

Christians like you have no commitment to society or our children's future. Everything your ilk does is in respect to the next world. You keep hoping and praying for more wars, more volcanoes and natural disasters, more destruction to hasten the end of the world as we know it. This is the problem with 1000 to 2000 year old doctrine being taken seriously today, it's dangerous and non-productive. Too many evangelicals are out there trying to promote Armageddon!

I don't want to live like that, and I don't think anyone else really does either. Got to agree with Kerry on this one!

I totally get where you are coming from. Many Christians just aren't that interested in helping or advancing society because they are too wrapped up in hoping for Armageddon. It always bothered me, as a Christian myself, how many of my fellow "believers" simply have no interest in the betterment of society, as if hastening the trend toward 'Armageddon' would bring about a self fulfilling prophecy, if we all just tried harder to break the system irreperrably.

There's also the problem of the theme of the Scriptures, as it relates to how one should live. If I really believe what the Scriptures say, then why would I endorse things like the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Roman Catholic Church and it's populace control dogmas, etc.? Yes, it is possible to be a Christian and recognize that not every one who claims to speak for your chosen deity actually does. In fact, Jesus spoke that in the "End", there will be a good many who think they are just fine who actually will find out they didn't make the cut. I hope I am not one, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I know many simply use religion as a tool to control people, or prop themselves up through works based merit systems, or whatever.

I guess my point is that just because there are a good many who use religion as a tool to do some terrible things, that does not prove any thing false, or certainly doesn't make all religious folk guilty by association. Lord knows we have atheistic figures throughout history that have also committed some pretty great atrocities, but I certainly would not judge all atheists as monsters just because a few of them did some terrible things. Christians tend to get railroaded in to doing what their leaders say because large sections of religious leadership becomes corrupt and pounds "spiritual authority" and twist it into a cultist frenzy, and the followers don' know enough of their own Scripture to refute them.It's a systemic problem that comes from human need for control and power, not an inherent flaw in the system. That's pretty sad, though, I agree.

There are actually some of us believers that think we should be doing everything we can to better our planet, our society, our selves, even if that means we have to do things without proselytizing. We believe that our actions do much more to advance our cause than anything we say. We have no interest in hastening the "end", but seek to manifest the "kingdom" here on earth through our choices to live as responsible citizens, and show love to those around us. After all, the two greatest commandments Jesus left us with, after doing away with the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament were, to be succinct, "Love God, Love everyone else like you would love yourself". Sounds cliche, but most of us don't realize how much we love ourselves until our lifestyle is threatened. That's the level I strive for. There are many like me, but our voices get drowned out by the religious doom-porn and naysayers and hypocrites and judgers. I pray I am never lumped in with those goats.

yeah, and muslims want the 13th iman or something.

funny you single out 1 specific group.

you some kind of bigot?

we all know how they want to start it all, right?

originally posted by: solomons path

originally posted by: pleasethink
a reply to: windword

I propose what my dad proposed to me: If I am wrong, and I live my life according to the morals present in the Law, do I lose anything upon death? Will my life of happiness and contentment lead me to feeling dismayed? Will my life somehow not possess the value of others who did not follow it? The answer to all three is no.

Now consider this: if in fact I am right, and the Bible is the word of G-d, I have everything to gain, as the Bible refers to a resurrection, a being made new. A new heaven, a new earth. And fellowship with the most beautiful, precious spirit.

Therefore, I lose nothing. I gain everything. Literally. So what is it to you? Why the hatefulness? Have I personally wronged you? Do you know who I am, even? If you don't, consider why you would so passionately despise a believer. What is it that cause you to feel this way? I'll give you a quote from Mathew:

"You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Consider that, in this way, you have confirmed the Bible's authenticity.

Have a nice day.

That's called a self-fulfilling prophecy. All religions rely on them, especially Judeo-Christian mythology. Jesus is presenting a false reality that will undoubtably become "true", simply by anyone questioning "the word".

The self-fulfilling prophecy is, in the beginning, a false definition of the situation evoking a new behaviour which makes the original false conception come true. This specious validity of the self-fulfilling prophecy perpetuates a reign of error. For the prophet will cite the actual course of events as proof that he was right from the very beginning.

So, no . . . that is not confirmation of authenticity. It's called a good con and confirmation bias for believers.

As for your rationale for belief . . . that is such an old and silly justification for faith. To you, there is "nothing to lose" because you already choose to believe and participate in the faith.

To a non-believer; you lose money (whether given to the church or purchasing the tools of faith, as Christianity is BIG business); you lose time wasted in church, prayer meetings, bible study, watching/listening/reading faith based media; you lose curiosity for the natural world, as all is already explained (god did it, answers in the bible) - I know some believers and non-believers will deny it, but there really is a conflict between science and religion. Science attempts to explain things as we find them, through discovery, observation, and experimentation. Religion attempts to explain things by simply saying "god's will" or citing unproven claims of divine revelation. The two are not nearly compatible and when in the habit of accepting things based on authority of an ancient book or a church leader, scientific curiosity suffers . . . Which leads us to the most important thing you lose, actually the world loses, is children being taught things that are probably not true (religion) in place of things that probably are true (science).

As far as "everything to gain" . . . How do you know that Hinduism isn't the true way? Or Islam? Or Egyptian? By your rationale, it would be equally valid to throw your hat in their rings, as well. Furthermore, you are operating on faith that you have received the "true word" and are worshiping correctly. If you have not . . . you still go to hell, right? So, you don't have "everything to gain by being right" if you simply have the right god . . . but not the right tribute.

The whole thing is a circular argument that only works on someone that refuses to really think it through . . . just like every other justification for faith in the bible.

do you lose anything, everyday?

or are you so efficient?

where is your faith getting you?

probably nowhere and running in circles. i think.

a reply to: buster2010

What amazing logic . . .

cheering on a globalist working hard to implement the long planned one world religion

wherein

Mostly successful laws and efforts will be in place to

totally FORCE as near 100% of the global populace as possible

to absolutely kowtow--worship--with physical prostration etc. and by taking the chip implant and swearing allegiance and total compliance, obedience to literal satan as God.

Yet, by some fantastic miracle, THAT situation's supposed to be BETTER than the historic status in the USA?

How logical.

Of course, the same sort of logic gives the RELIGION OF SCIENTISM a free pass as it DEMANDS total obedience to the high priests and bishops of SCIENTISM under pain of not being published; not being hired; not being given tenure; not getting acting jobs; not being news anchors; not being editors; . . .

How utterly CONSISTENT! /sarc
.

a reply to: tsingtao

WRONG.

Kerry's wrong, too.

Witness: the Burpo's

HEAVEN IS FOR REAL.

Witness: a twister taking all the tin off our barns and chicken coops and carrying it toward the adobe mud hut we called home in my youth. Mother prayed a few words . . . a line could be drawn virtually straight . . . the tin reached to about 1.5" of our hut and no further.

Witness: our hay was drying in the field . . . we desperately needed the hay to feed our cows else we'd lose them an probably the farm. Rain was coming up the river valley as was somewhat common. Mother prayed. The rain fell on 4 sides of the drying hay but not on the drying hay.

Witness: Millions of others with similar and more dramatic real life events testifying to the authentic God of The Bible and His miraculous actions in behalf of those He loves.

Kerry's wrong.

a reply to: buster2010

Evidently . . . with that wholesale myopic and lopsided perspective . . .

the denial is deep and wide

about Christianity founding

ALL THE IVY LEAGUE 'CHURCHES' OF THE RELIGION OF SCIENTISM . . . usually initially as . . . drum roll . . .

BIBLE COLLEGES . . .

e. g. Harvard, Yale, etc. etc. etc.

Of course . . . can't let a long list of such scientific and historical facts get in the way of a thoroughly distorted perspective.

And, of course . . . there's that absolutely BRILLIANT pseudo logic

which PRETENDS that

it is MORE SCIENTIFIC

to have a multiverse in which UTTER CHANCE PLUS TIME IS THE ONLY SUPREME FOUNDER AND RULER [what a pile of total irrationality!]

vs

a multiverse CREATED IN AN ORDERLY FASHION WITH RATHER FINELY TUNED ORDER

SUCH THAT

SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION IS EVEN REMOTELY POSSIBLE.

Or put more simply . . .

Without a CREATOR, scientific investigation of an orderly multiverse would be impossible.
.

a reply to: pleasethink

What a ridiculous proposition! You must not think very much of your God if you think it doesn't care if you're just hedging your bets to get into heaven by going to church and reading the Bible.

Unfortunately, I think that majority of people who call themselves Christians do just that. Sunday hypocrites the lot of them!

I agree with Solomon's Path, there is a great deal to loose, especially considering the children's future, by leading them to a lifetime of fear, hypocrisy, superstition and ignorance. You can also kiss any integrity, critical thinking skills and morality good-by as you throw it all out the window in favor of a religious crap shoot that can not be won.

There is no legitimate reason for the religious to dictate or force their interpretation of ancient texts on society, telling us all what to think and how to behave based on stolen mythology and questionable testimonials in the first place.

John Kerry is right!

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: pleasethink

What a ridiculous proposition! You must not think very much of your God if you think it doesn't care if you're just hedging your bets to get into heaven by going to church and reading the Bible.

Unfortunately, I think that majority of people who call themselves Christians do just that. Sunday hypocrites the lot of them!

John Kerry is right!

You sure hit the nail on the head there. One of the reasons I am no longer welcome in many churches as a guest speaker. I say this and can prove it so, and that makes the pastor uncomfortable. Not because he truly cares for the flock, although I am sure he does at some level, but because he sees me risking his paycheck by criticizing the ones that he relies on to fill the coffers. Much of modern western Christianity is nothing more than a transactional, consumer driven business model, sprinkled with spirituality to make them feel better about themselves. I much prefer the way it is practiced with authenticity in the Third World.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: adjensen Wow Kerry is sticking his foot in his mouth again ..Come on John get with the program , Israel was created because of that book you are now saying has no standing ....He makes himself such a easy target I couldn't resist ...

yep, and look at how much good the creation of israel has done. not one wit.

a reply to: adjensen

I don't have a problem with his words but I find the special treatment he gets by the Catholic church a bit unfair. When I say similar things, I am instantly labeled a non-Christian (accurately so) yet, when a Catholic politician says these things, they condone the words by their silence.

Maybe it's an image thing. If the church responds to accusations of legalistic dogma with an excommunication, I'm pretty sure many would see that as confirmation. Many church officials seem to be thinking like Kerry now days so maybe this is just becoming the norm.


ps edit - I just read the attached article and now understand why he said those things. Africa's Christianity isn't like today's western Christianity. They are burning witches and meeting homosexuality with "divine corrective rape". They are following the Christianity (and sometimes Islam) of the dark ages in many parts of Africa. I would imagine even the pope would agree that the understanding of Christianity in many parts of Africa is dangerously outdated.

I'd rather have a true oligarchy than a religious oligarchy. At least then maybe the masses would question the policies designed to suppress their freedoms and individual rights.

Pretty easy to run a country when you tell them if they don't adhere they will go to hell/be immoral/be sinners etc. Maybe what Kerry is saying is, the masses don't question anything anyways lets just pull down the religious veil and continue the oligarchy with the actual power figure's agendas in full view.

Not sure how long it will be before the USA is completely closed off to the outside world (internet censorship?)... Not that it matters, I'm near certain that 95% of American 'news' intake is currently via Jimmy Fallon and TMZ.

originally posted by: tsingtao

originally posted by: amazing
On the surface. I agree. I don't want to live in an old testament, Christian world either.

I don't want a world where we HATE people for no reason.
I don't want a world where women are supposedly less then men. Second class citizens.
I don't want a world where young earth creationism is given priority over Science.
I don't want a world where we only care about our on flocks and we have deadly wars against other sects of our religions. Protestants and Catholics killing each other.
I don't want a world were I'm judged by other people because I've "sinned"
I don't want that world. Kerry is right.

why do you hate christians?
tell islam.
why listen to that crap? i guess you believe everything you are told, eh?
why not tell the sunni's that?
tell that to islam.
kerry is an idiot.

Because we live in a country with a real possibility of some fruitcake Christians taking control and passing some ridiculous old testament Christian laws. That's a scary thought! That's why I'm railing against Christians. Kerry is right on this.

Do you want to live in a world where women are second rate citizens? That's what Paul says in the bible. How many Christians are for same sex marriage? How many Christians are antiscience? Just look at the wacko responses to Cosmos and how many people actually think like Ken Hamm. We can't have a country like this.

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: tsingtao

originally posted by: amazing
On the surface. I agree. I don't want to live in an old testament, Christian world either.

I don't want a world where we HATE people for no reason.
I don't want a world where women are supposedly less then men. Second class citizens.
I don't want a world where young earth creationism is given priority over Science.
I don't want a world where we only care about our on flocks and we have deadly wars against other sects of our religions. Protestants and Catholics killing each other.
I don't want a world were I'm judged by other people because I've "sinned"
I don't want that world. Kerry is right.

why do you hate christians?
tell islam.
why listen to that crap? i guess you believe everything you are told, eh?
why not tell the sunni's that?
tell that to islam.
kerry is an idiot.

Because we live in a country with a real possibility of some fruitcake Christians taking control and passing some ridiculous old testament Christian laws. That's a scary thought! That's why I'm railing against Christians. Kerry is right on this.

Do you want to live in a world where women are second rate citizens? That's what Paul says in the bible. How many Christians are for same sex marriage? How many Christians are antiscience? Just look at the wacko responses to Cosmos and how many people actually think like Ken Hamm. We can't have a country like this.

"real possibility"? i don't think so. the USA is not saudi arabia.
where in the world do "some old testament christian laws" rule?

we all live in a world that has some women as second rate citizens. again, i'm not aware of the christian religion promoting such.
paul might have said something like that, but Jesus didn't.

gay marriage? meh, who cares? i don't personally.
what do they want, rent st. peter's basilica for a wedding?
ya pretty much have to take that up with the vatican, about gay marriage.
hell, i want to sit in the situation room during a crisis, that ain't gonna happen, is it.

"anti-science" is a common bs talking point out of the ignorant.
who the hell gave someone the right to claim science for their own group?
seems to me, science is the only thing these people have, to hang their hat on.
and only to have people think one way, goes against human nature and God.
ya think?

a reply to: tsingtao

How in the world did you get the idea that I was/am some kind of bigot out of that post? Certainly was not an intentional thing, but if you could help me communicate better, then please specify? I had a hard time following your train of thought.