John Kerry on religion: "Not the Way I Think Most People Want to Live"

originally posted by: DrinkMoreWater

originally posted by: Gryphon66
RELIGIOUS TEXTS AND APPROXIMATE AGES OF SAME:

BUDDHIST: Tripitaka, Mahayana Sutras, (2600 years)

HINDU: Rigveda (3500 years old), Upanishads (3200 years old), Bhagavad Gita (2500 years old)

TAOISM: Tao Te Ching (2400 years old)

It doesn't matter because our oldest texts are copies of copies. They are probably even older than that, and many in the Bible are some of the oldest.

I'm not sure where you get your information, but the OT was developed between 8-6th century B.C.E (just prior to exile in Babylon). The oldest surviving text is the Septuagint from 4th century C.E.

Contrast that with, what we now call, Greek mythology that was developed during the Geometric period from 9-8th century B.C.E, with the "pantheon" we know today developing around 750 B.C.E. That puts the Greeks as old or even older than anything in the Bible, let alone anything from Egypt, India, China, etc.

The NT was produced in the late 1st century C.E., with the bulk developing well into the 2nd century C.E.

My comments may have taken the discussion off track. Secretary Kerry's comments regarding "2000 year old texts" were interpreted earlier as only referring to Christianity, because that is the only religion that has texts that "go back that far."

And that statement is incorrect. If Kerry were talking only about Christianity, he would have said Christianity. He didn't, so he wasn't. He's at least a titular Christian himself, so it makes even less sense that he would "pick on" his own faith.

When one can make what someone says into whatever one wants it to be, one is in the realm of fiction not fact.

IMO.

a reply to: DrinkMoreWater

since everything is cyclic, like say, the displacement, persecution, and reformation of Jews from and to Israel.

Who, do you think are the Jews? The Nation of Israel? Who are "his" sheep? What about all the indigenous populations of the planet that the Catholic Church and the Pope claimed for their own, and then slaughtered? Just who are the persecuted, disenfranchised, abused and displaced people of the world, really?

Very specific and perfectly accurate prophecy unfolds all the time.

History repeats itself, people are predictable.

God specifically said that we won't know the time, and generation is not referring to a generation of humans. Most of the time, hyperbole is used when God talks about time because it is not for us to know.

That's a convenient way to prolong and promote the cycle of wars and rumors of wars. I think I recall Rumsfeld using the exact tactics to get the US into Iraq.

There is nothing new under the sun? That is from the Bible. Do you know what that actually refers to?

Read my signature.

originally posted by: Murgatroid
And WHY exactly do you believe Wikipedia?

You might as well cite CNN or CBS...

Originally posted by aBlueRAY
From a psychoanalytical point of view, I have to assume deep in your heart you know wikipedia would be the number one piece of propaganda available online for the masses.

It is a propaganda outlet dominated by people who want to radically transform our existence. Who Controls Wikipedia?

The problem with Wikipedia is not that it exists, but that it has become the cornerstone for researchers scanning the Internet for information and blindly copying from Wikipedia entries, wrongfully assuming that they are neutral and correct.

It has become the "Ministry of Information", the "one-stop information shop" of the Internet, but no one should fall for the "Newspeak" of a title. Wikipedia has made the task for those seeding disinformation and removing dissenting views easier, more direct and even more anonymous. °

Wikipedia Lies:Online Disinformation & Propaganda

So to prove that Wikipaedia is propaganda, you post... a whole lot of new age and right wing nutjob propaganda...

Brilliant! Keep up the good form.

originally posted by: BO XIAN
a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

Somewhat interesting . . .

It will be more interesting to see the apologists for such . . .

WHEN

they are forced to worship satan under pain of death for not doing so.

I wonder how big a change it will be.

You know what? I'm not going to hold my breath for that one..

a reply to: windword

You are kind of claiming the word generation to mean what you wish it to mean. It is commonly understood the generation in which He was referring to was the generation of people alive during the time of the fulfillment, as it fits into the context of His previous statements. Also some of the things He referenced did not take place at all, i.e. the sun and star and Yeshua appearing in the clouds after the days of tribulation. It is more or less a way of saying that it will happen quickly.

Also, unless someone has been making ardent attempts to fulfill Biblical prophecy, the Bible is indeed quite strange. It has been absolutely correct in all it's prophecies to date. Quote referencing the establishment of Israel

"The first is Ezekiel 37:21-22: “And say unto them, ‘Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.’”

This verse, Battlestein points out, shows “that it was the will of the Lord to bring them back to their own land and make them one nation in the land.”

The second citation of interest is Leviticus 26:23-24: “And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me; Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.”

“As a stand-alone verse this is very strange, and when applying it to the history of Israel it seems impossible to fully understand,” writes the author. “However, when we read the Book of Ezekiel we find another strange prophecy that leads us back to G-d’s prophecy in Leviticus. It is through these prophecies that we come to an understanding that May 14, 1948, was the exact date chosen by G-d for the resurrection of Israel thousands of years before it took place.”

That second Ezekiel citation is Ezekiel 4:4-6: “Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.”

“In this strange prophecy, Ezekiel is commanded to first lay on his left side for 390 days and then on his right side for 40 days, for a total of 430 days, as punishment for the iniquities of the house of Israel,” explains Battlestein.

“We are told that this punishment represents one day for each year. Taken alone, the prophecies in Leviticus and Ezekiel do not take on any specific significance. However, when we combine them, the results are astonishing.”

He continues: “G-d decreed to Israel a total of 430 years of punishment for her sins against Him. That punishment consisted of physical removal from the land G-d had promised His people. Israel’s captivity in Babylon was exactly 70 years as prophesied by the prophet Jeremiah (Jeremiah 25:11-12; 29:10). Therefore, the first 70 years of Israel’s punishment was completed when the Babylonian captivity ended.

By the decree of King Cyrus, conquerer or Babylon, the Jews were set free from their captivity in the year 538 B.C.E. The year 538 B.C.E, therefore becomes the base year with which we begin our calculations: 430 years minus 70 year captivity equals 360 years of remaining punishment to come.”

That’s where the Leviticus prophecy kicks in, says Battlestein. The 360 years needed to be multiplied by seven, for a total of 2,520 years.

Using the 360-day Hebrew calendar, that totals 907,200 days. When converted to the 365-day calendar, the 2,520 years or 907,200 days becomes 2,485 years and five months or 2,485.5 years and months. If you subtract 538 years B.C.E, you get 1,947 years and five months.

Battlestein reminds that there was no year zero.

“Therefore, the year 1,947.5 we call the year 1948.5,” he explains. “So exactly 1,947.5 years after 538 B.C.E., we come to the year 1948.5,” he writes. “May is the fifth month of the modern calendar, and on May 14, 1948, Israel arose from the ashes of extinction to become a nation!”

Somebody must be keeping score somewhere, man or G-d. But you won't hear about that on TV.

a reply to: pleasethink

You are kind of claiming the word generation to mean what you wish it to mean. It is commonly understood the generation in which He was referring to was the generation of people alive during the time of the fulfillment,

Those people WERE the generation that was around to see the fulfillment, when they saw the Jewish Wars and the destruction of Pompey, 9 years later.

the sun and star and Yeshua appearing in the clouds after the days of tribulation. It is more or less a way of saying that it will happen quickly.

Most certainly that was the imagery of the eruption of Mt Vesuvius. And, as Pompey was the vacation sport of the Roman Elite, many thought Vesuvius was God's wrath on Rome for the Jewish Wars and the Siege of Jerusalem. Ancient literature proves such rumination.

There was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind…and every mountain and island was moved out of its place (Rv 6:12-14, NKJV).

While these events are part of a supernatural scenario in Revelation,

All these phenomena; an earthquake, a dark sun and moon like blood, “stars” falling from heaven and movement of land masses are associated with volcanic eruption. A volcanic cloud would darken the sun and make the moon appear blood red. (Bent 1888: 8:16).

Sounds like a volcano to me!

1) during the sixth seal, called a “great earthquake” (6:12)
2) during the seventh seal (8:5)
3) after the resurrection of the two witnesses, called a “great earthquake” when 7,000 men were killed (11:13)
4) during the seventh trumpet (11:19)
5) the final one, during the seventh bowl judgment, described as “a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth” (16:18; NKJV).

This last statement may have reminded ancient readers in Asia Minor of stories they heard about the great earthquake of AD 17. Pliny the Elder, who ironically died studying the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in AD 79, wrote of the AD 17 earthquake:

The greatest earthquake in human memory occurred when Tiberius Caesar was emperor, 12 Asiatic cities being overthrown in night (Rachham 1979:331).

Tacitus, Roman historian and contemporary of John, described horrors of the AD 17 earthquake in vivid and graphic language (Moore and Jackson 1992: 459). John, writing less than 20 years after Pliny, speaks to his readers of a greater earthquake yet to come. A careful reading of Revelation seems to indicate these earthquakes are God’s direct intervention in judgment on humanity.
www.biblearchaeology.org...

I know it's hard for Christians to let go of their wet dream of the destruction of the world as we know it!

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: buster2010

Religion is just another tool to be used to control the masses. It is used to get the people to act in a way a small minority wants them to act while retaining power over them. Religion has been used to hold humanity back long enough and it is time we move beyond it. Just look back in history and you can easily find where religion has held back mankind's progress the dark ages being just one of many examples.

Am I correct to assume that you're talking about Religion as led by man not led by the Lord Jesus?



If so then you're post is about man-made religion not the one that Jesus started - the True Christianity, which will endure forever as it's approved by his God and Father.

The only reason you believe in jesus is because man created him so you could believe in him.Stop living in a bubble.

originally posted by: solomons path

originally posted by: DrinkMoreWater

originally posted by: Gryphon66
RELIGIOUS TEXTS AND APPROXIMATE AGES OF SAME:

BUDDHIST: Tripitaka, Mahayana Sutras, (2600 years)

HINDU: Rigveda (3500 years old), Upanishads (3200 years old), Bhagavad Gita (2500 years old)

TAOISM: Tao Te Ching (2400 years old)

It doesn't matter because our oldest texts are copies of copies. They are probably even older than that, and many in the Bible are some of the oldest.

I'm not sure where you get your information, but the OT was developed between 8-6th century B.C.E (just prior to exile in Babylon). The oldest surviving text is the Septuagint from 4th century C.E.

Since this is a lie, the rest of your post is a lie. The OT was "developed" over thousands of years. The surviving texts are all copies of copies. No one knows exactly when the originals were penned. If you are referring to the Dead Sea Scrolls, they are pre-Babylon as far as we can tell, but we don't have the originals - and they are in the OT. The Book of Job, for instance, was pre-Babylonian.

originally posted by: DrinkMoreWater

originally posted by: solomons path

originally posted by: DrinkMoreWater

originally posted by: Gryphon66
RELIGIOUS TEXTS AND APPROXIMATE AGES OF SAME:

BUDDHIST: Tripitaka, Mahayana Sutras, (2600 years)

HINDU: Rigveda (3500 years old), Upanishads (3200 years old), Bhagavad Gita (2500 years old)

TAOISM: Tao Te Ching (2400 years old)

It doesn't matter because our oldest texts are copies of copies. They are probably even older than that, and many in the Bible are some of the oldest.

I'm not sure where you get your information, but the OT was developed between 8-6th century B.C.E (just prior to exile in Babylon). The oldest surviving text is the Septuagint from 4th century C.E.

Since this is a lie, the rest of your post is a lie. The OT was "developed" over thousands of years. The surviving texts are all copies of copies. No one knows exactly when the originals were penned. If you are referring to the Dead Sea Scrolls, they are pre-Babylon as far as we can tell, but we don't have the originals - and they are in the OT. The Book of Job, for instance, was pre-Babylonian.

No . . . I'm referring to the OT. The Dead Sea Scrolls are not pre-Babylonian.

The texts are written in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and Nabataean, mostly on parchment but with some written on papyrus and bronze. The manuscripts have been dated to various ranges between 408 BCE and 318 CE. Bronze coins found on the site form a series beginning with John Hyrcanus (135–104 BCE) and continuing until the First Jewish-Roman War (66–73 CE).

The only book that has origins earlier than 1200 B.C.E. is Genesis. And we know that many of the stories in Genesis are just bastardized versions of Sumarian and Caananite mythology. Ramsese II, Pharoh in Exodus, lived 1303-1213 B.C.E. Nothing outside of Genesis could have been developed before Moses.

Some scholars even put the development of the OT post-exile. I was going on the generous side with pre-exile.

The opinion of the overwhelming majority of modern biblical scholars is that the Torah (the series of five books which make up Genesis plus the Exodus story) was shaped in the post-Exilic period. There are currently two important hypotheses explaining the background to this: the first is Persian Imperial authorisation, the idea that the post-Exilic community needed a legal basis on which to function within the Persian Imperial system; the second relates to the community of citizens organised around the Temple, with the Pentateuch providing the criteria for who would belong to it (the narratives and genealogies in Genesis) and establishing the power structures and relative positions of its various groups. In either case, the Book of Exodus forms a "charter myth" for Israel: Israel was delivered from slavery by Yahweh and therefore belongs to him through the covenant.

Lies are something people tell themselves to maintain a reality that isn't backed by evidence. Maybe you should pick up a history book once in a while . . .

They are copies of copies. We just went over this. This is why talking to swine is pointless lmao

Your real reason for not believing in Jesus is that you disagree with the proposition laid out in the Bible. You made that choice of your own free will. Don't attempt scholarly debate anymore, if you have any sense (which you don't).

originally posted by: Ancient Champion

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: buster2010

Religion is just another tool to be used to control the masses. It is used to get the people to act in a way a small minority wants them to act while retaining power over them. Religion has been used to hold humanity back long enough and it is time we move beyond it. Just look back in history and you can easily find where religion has held back mankind's progress the dark ages being just one of many examples.

Am I correct to assume that you're talking about Religion as led by man not led by the Lord Jesus?



If so then you're post is about man-made religion not the one that Jesus started - the True Christianity, which will endure forever as it's approved by his God and Father.

The only reason you believe in jesus is because man created him so you could believe in him.Stop living in a bubble.

Actually, it is propaganda, but not with the negative connotation that has been applied to the word "propaganda." "Propaganda" means to spread information. The first use of malicious propaganda was when Satan said we would be like God if we eat the fruit. It was true information, but presented in an Edward Bernays way.It always comes back to the meaning of the words "like God." Who is like God?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: DrinkMoreWater

since everything is cyclic, like say, the displacement, persecution, and reformation of Jews from and to Israel.

Who, do you think are the Jews? The Nation of Israel? Who are "his" sheep? What about all the indigenous populations of the planet that the Catholic Church and the Pope claimed for their own, and then slaughtered? Just who are the persecuted, disenfranchised, abused and displaced people of the world, really?

Very specific and perfectly accurate prophecy unfolds all the time.

History repeats itself, people are predictable.

God specifically said that we won't know the time, and generation is not referring to a generation of humans. Most of the time, hyperbole is used when God talks about time because it is not for us to know.

That's a convenient way to prolong and promote the cycle of wars and rumors of wars. I think I recall Rumsfeld using the exact tactics to get the US into Iraq.

There is nothing new under the sun? That is from the Bible. Do you know what that actually refers to?

Read my signature.

1. The Jews are the ancient Hebrew people, in this context, God's chosen people of the OT. The bloodlines that recently returned to Israel and reformed it. Are you dim or messing with me?

2. You are guilty of being a watcher of the times, which God specifically warned about. Comparing the cyclic nature of humans to prophecy is sin. The cycle of history is not perfectly cyclic. Prophecy always is perfectly accurate.

3. Say what about Rumsfeld? How old are you? That has 0 to do with anything.

4. Nothing new under the sun is referring to the cyclic nature of history, as in human sin and ideology. 2000 years ago, there was some guy like you arguing with some guy like me.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
My comments may have taken the discussion off track. Secretary Kerry's comments regarding "2000 year old texts" were interpreted earlier as only referring to Christianity, because that is the only religion that has texts that "go back that far."

And that statement is incorrect. If Kerry were talking only about Christianity, he would have said Christianity. He didn't, so he wasn't. He's at least a titular Christian himself, so it makes even less sense that he would "pick on" his own faith.

When one can make what someone says into whatever one wants it to be, one is in the realm of fiction not fact.

IMO.

Obviously he was referring to Christianity. Where have you been for the last 7 years or so? All of his comments are in line with the NWO agenda. He is saying the same things rich people have been saying behind closed doors for hundreds of years now. And he is about as Christian as George Bush (not at all). He views religion as philosophy. You don't understand the game being played if you actually believe what you wrote.

originally posted by: DrinkMoreWater
They are copies of copies. We just went over this. This is why talking to swine is pointless lmao

Your real reason for not believing in Jesus is that you disagree with the proposition laid out in the Bible. You made that choice of your own free will. Don't attempt scholarly debate anymore, if you have any sense (which you don't).

I'm pretty sure you should head your own advice . . . I'm not talking about the "copies". There are no copies of any OT book older than those found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, earliest being about 250 B.C.E.

I'm talking about the mythology . . . Outside of Genesis, which is mostly a retelling of Sumerian and Canaanite myth, 1200 B.C.E. is starting point for all Hebrew mythology.

I find it odd that the poster who derides others for "scholarly debate", lacks any sense of scholarship in their posts and relies on assertion and insults. Me thinks you should look into that projection problem . . .

You are right about one thing, I do disagree with the proposition laid out in the NT. But, that doesn't change the fact that you are wrong about the dating of the mythology.

On the surface. I agree. I don't want to live in an old testament, Christian world either.

I don't want a world where we HATE people for no reason.
I don't want a world where women are supposedly less then men. Second class citizens.
I don't want a world where young earth creationism is given priority over Science.
I don't want a world where we only care about our on flocks and we have deadly wars against other sects of our religions. Protestants and Catholics killing each other.
I don't want a world were I'm judged by other people because I've "sinned"
I don't want that world. Kerry is right.

a reply to: solomons path

Here we go -

1st. You just said you are talking outside of Genesis, which you just now specified. I do not remember you ever saying you exclude Gensis for this discussion.

2nd. 1200 BC is not the starting point for the truth that is found in the Bible, and no Hebrew would have claimed that the Word that is in the Bible is from 1200 BC up. Many of the stories are of human settlements that existed before Babylon.

3rd. Assertions and insults are all you have made, although the insults are veiled.

Did you really just say Genesis is a retelling of Sumerian and Canaanite mythology?


I don't have time to debunk every last lie that has been told by someone who took Solomon's path, but this guy did:

www.youtube.com... - not letting me embed for some reason so I just posted the link.

But I do give you credit for admitting that the basis of your perspective is not in "scientific fact," but instead in that you do not accept the proposition laid out in the Bible - more specifically the NT.

a reply to: amazing

Just pay close attention to the first few words of your post and you will be OK.

originally posted by: DrinkMoreWater
a reply to: amazing

Just pay close attention to the first few words of your post and you will be OK.

what do you mean? Maybe I shouldn't have said, on the surface, but I didn't want to take any of Kerry's words out of context so... I was just commenting on the surface words, which were-"religion: Not the Way I Think Most People Want to Live" and I agree with that statement so I singled out the basic tenants of the Abraham religions and stated what why I didn't want that.

Or you okay?

He is absolutely 100 % correct.
It's a shame you can't see it move forward