Kim Jong-un smiles when seeing elite fighter squadron in combat ready condition

a reply to: TritonTaranis

What choice would they have? They're going to have to fly over North Korea at some point, and 180 F-22s can only do so much.

Keep in mind these are the same commanders that got an F-117 shot down by flying the same route three or for nights in a row, at about the same time every night. What makes you think they're any smarter now?

Regardless of NK air Hardware, their pilots can't be any good. The whole structure of the NK Military doesn't lend itself to self thinking Jet Aces. I'd be more concerned over their SAM sites than their Jets.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: TritonTaranis

What choice would they have? They're going to have to fly over North Korea at some point, and 180 F-22s can only do so much.

Keep in mind these are the same commanders that got an F-117 shot down by flying the same route three or for nights in a row, at about the same time every night. What makes you think they're any smarter now?

It took great planning to do that and with Russia's help, and that's technically first gen stealth, and clearly just the one shot down kinda sums up how difficult it actually is, I'd sure bet the USAF learnt from that silly mistake, by the time South Korea or the US had to fly over NK there's a good chance they'll be none left and the remainder wouldn't fair well up against the F-22s at all, there are 12 currently deployed in Kadena AB Japan

I just don't see them as a serious concern at all, but there's no doubt they could be out to good use as suicide missions

a reply to: TritonTaranis

That's what they said after Vietnam when they did the exact same thing.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: TritonTaranis

That's what they said after Vietnam when they did the exact same thing.

Well I guess if it never happened nothing gained right?

It's just as important to learn the weaknesses of your own tech against the enemies as it is testing against your own tech, strategies and tactics can be altered, it's just how well you use it, and again the fact only one F-117 was shot down is in its own little way a success

If it's detectable it can be shot down as far as I'm aware there is no white world aircraft that is absolutely stealth and undetectable, you know as well as I do, it's highly unlikely NK has anything like the Serbs had, the Serb did better than the Iraqis did with half the force, the Serb did very well In fact, quality over quantity... But yeah, that's because Russia had a little hand in that too lol

originally posted by: TritonTaranis

originally posted by: pavil
Regardless of NK air Hardware, their pilots can't be any good. The whole structure of the NK Military doesn't lend itself to self thinking Jet Aces. I'd be more concerned over their SAM sites than their Jets.

Certainly North Koreas air defence would be the first to take out, which is going to prove quite difficult to do without heavy loss

However... The North Koreans S-300 is neither Russian and neither Chinese design, but NK design. I don't know if technology is based on the early S-300 versions from eighties or from more modern versions, but North Korea was able to get this technology from ex-soviet republics after SU break up in nineties or from China, which they shouldn't have due to UN sanctions and embargoes banning everything from small arms... which is North Korea's best friend all this time. Caracteristics of this S-300 are definitively different, than caracteristics of original S-300 or HQ-9, which also have some technology from Patriot system

nice copy / paste from militaryphotos.net

www.militaryphotos.net.../page5

originally posted by: TritonTaranis

originally posted by: Vovin

originally posted by: TritonTaranis

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: benrl

BVR kill percentage sucks. Israel, which has fired more missiles BVR than just about anyone else has well under a 25% kill rate in BVR combat.

Still the legacy fighters could send off a volly breaking enemy Formations in BVR and picking off the poor trained North Korea pilots BVR doesn't just serve as first look first kill advantages

Still don't see them as much of a threat it's old tech which hasn't seen much in the way of upgrades

Avionics goes a very long way

The North Korean MIGs are at a disadvantage in every way

No doubt they could get through and do some damage but that'll short lived and minimal

And where do you think the DPRK airforce will be deployed? Inside of the DPRK, where the DPRK army is deployed over the entire landmass. It's not like the American fighters would just roll right in, pick off DPRK fighters, then leave without being molested for flying over hostile territory.

They may not look like much to you, but they would be useful for missions inside of their territory, and they would be all the more effective with ground elements pinpointing targets for them.

Ehh

Under what circumstances would the South Koreans and US need to fly into North Korea looking to destroy obsolete fighters which stick out like a sore thumb on radar?

They're going to find most of there airfields and MIGs are out of action within the first few opening weeks from cruse missiles strikes and bombing missions

You're talking about a suicide mission that'll never occur, your assuming military commanders are stupid enough to fly legacy fighters over NK without naturalising its air defences or severely crippling it enough to even begin to think of flying over with stealth bombers

Just not going to happen without air superiority

It's nothing to do with looking like much to me, it's more to do with massive odds and facts, if these MIGs flew over the DMZ they could get through with a well planned low altitude fast attack, hit some nice targets and kill a few hundred, but they're not going home... not a chance, if they be pitted up against legacy fighters they don't have a single advantage

To military commanders... I'd bet they wouldn't even bat an eyelid about these possibilities

Oh ok, genius. How exactly would the US just bombard North Korea with "cruise missile strikes and bombing missions"?

This isn't Iraq. Iraq did not have a navy devoted to anti-ship assaults along its entire coastline. And remember back when Iraq dismantled its best tactical theatre weapons under threat of invasion, and then were invaded anyways? The DPRK isn't going to just submit their arsenal of AA, SAMs, and tactical ballistic missiles (including anti-ship), along with dozens of attack submarines, just to clear the way for "cruise missile strikes and bombing missions" on themselves.

If your strategy was feasible in the least, why do you think it hasn't been carried out yet? Because "shock and awe" is a strategy much deeper than merely bombing a country. It also requires an invasion and the submission of the country's government and it's people. North Korea, a country of millions of people who have all been trained and indoctrinated to fight to the death for their nation, would have to be invaded by a large scale ground force. Otherwise, all your "cruise missile strikes and bombing missions" would achieve is radicalizing the DPRK into offensive mode, probably starting off with bombarding South Korea and killing tens of thousands of USA and ROK soldiers and civilians within the first day following an American bombardment.

You do know that the fact that the DPRK has thousands of artillery pieces aimed past the DMZ has warded off war for the past 50 years, right? It's called mutually assured destruction, and it's not just limited to superpowers with nuclear weapons.

And as for your claims that just taking their planes in the air would be a "suicide mission"- shows how little you know about North Korean / communist culture. DPRK pilots have probably been flying their jets since they were in their teenage years, and know their aircraft better than some American pilot that is handed some aircraft to fly with a service contract ranging a set amount of years. As I explained to you before, technological superiority is one of many factors. Have you ever considered the stress that an American pilot may experience when faced with the possibility of what would happened to them should their aircraft not make it out of North Korean territory during a mission? That's a factor that can't be measured in high-tech simulators.

a reply to: EnigmaAgent

The J-7 was not built by the Chinese. The Dear leader designed this plane and built it himself using only a hammer, aluminum siding and some nails.

originally posted by: FraternitasSaturni

originally posted by: TritonTaranis

originally posted by: pavil
Regardless of NK air Hardware, their pilots can't be any good. The whole structure of the NK Military doesn't lend itself to self thinking Jet Aces. I'd be more concerned over their SAM sites than their Jets.

Certainly North Koreas air defence would be the first to take out, which is going to prove quite difficult to do without heavy loss

However... The North Koreans S-300 is neither Russian and neither Chinese design, but NK design. I don't know if technology is based on the early S-300 versions from eighties or from more modern versions, but North Korea was able to get this technology from ex-soviet republics after SU break up in nineties or from China, which they shouldn't have due to UN sanctions and embargoes banning everything from small arms... which is North Korea's best friend all this time. Caracteristics of this S-300 are definitively different, than caracteristics of original S-300 or HQ-9, which also have some technology from Patriot system

nice copy / paste from militaryphotos.net

www.militaryphotos.net.../page5

Looks like it has some slight differences in words, indicating that it was rewritten, but the whole statement being plagiarized is quite obvious. What's even more interesting is that the original statement was posted like 6 years ago by a banned user on militaryphotos, so either this guy here is connected to that poster or he's just ripping off posts.

Dear Kim has better than those, but not a whole lot of them and their training time is just outright pathetic. Then again....well.. We won't go into current US training availability. (sigh)

The stuff I put together about this time last year ought to hold fairly true, considering the DPRK is kinda like the land that time forgot in terms of major changes in any short period. Only war or famine seem to change much in North Korea.

Korea : Military Concerns and Summaries

Dear Leader may have been happy it did so well...or he may have been thrilled it didn't crash. Hard to say.

I thought North Korea had a few Mig-29 Fulcrums and Mig-23 Floggers? They are a lot better than the Fishbed.

www.globalsecurity.org...

North Korean Mig-29s

spioenkop.blogspot.com.au...

In the Israel Syria war in 1982 Israeli F-15s and F-16s achieved an extremely high kill ratio against Syrian Mig-21s and Mig-23s.

By the time of the ceasefire took effect, the Syrians lost 30% of their air force in just one week of fighting for a total of 88 aircraft shot down. Of those 88 kills, 44 belonged to F-15 Eagles and 33 belonged to F-16s. Israeli losses have never been fully admitted, but it's believed to include one F-16, one F-4E, one Kfir C2, two A-4s and several helicopters.

aviationtrivia.blogspot.com.au...

In my opinion I doubt the North Korean air force would do any better than Syria did in '82. As for the North Korean ground forces that is a different story and they could do serious damage to South Korea if any war started. The new leader Kim Jong Un is a total psychopath and it seems he will do anything to stay in power.

Oh ok, genius. How exactly would the US just bombard North Korea with "cruise missile strikes and bombing missions

"?

Coastal, subs ships, and air deployment platforms, what does NK have in the way of a decent navy to repel it?

This isn't Iraq. Iraq did not have a navy devoted to anti-ship assaults along its entire coastline. And remember back when Iraq dismantled its best tactical theatre weapons under threat of invasion, and then were invaded anyways? The DPRK isn't going to just submit their arsenal of AA, SAMs, and tactical ballistic missiles (including anti-ship), along with dozens of attack submarines, just to clear the way for "cruise missile strikes and bombing missions" on themselves.

I'm sorry but the US navy will make easy work of NK Koreas, it would be target practise

If your strategy was feasible in the least, why do you think it hasn't been carried out yet? Because "shock and awe" is a strategy much deeper than merely bombing a country. It also requires an invasion and the submission of the country's government and it's people. North Korea, a country of millions of people who have all been trained and indoctrinated to fight to the death for their nation, would have to be invaded by a large scale ground force. Otherwise, all your "cruise missile strikes and bombing missions" would achieve is radicalizing the DPRK into offensive mode, probably starting off with bombarding South Korea and killing tens of thousands of USA and ROK soldiers and civilians within the first day following an American bombardment.

It hasn't been carried out because it would destroy the Korea peninsular and cost many tens of thousands of US troops life's not to mention South Koreans, the problem is the nuclear threat which without a doubt lil Kim would use, I don't think we have to worry about radicalising, the North Koreans are as loyal cannon fodder as they come, the biggest problem will be the sheer amount of body's flying over the DMZ

Without a doubt the initial bombardment from North Korea artillery will kill many thousands mainly civilians, but North Korea will not be able to sustain this level of firepower for long, whereas the South Koreas will be able to,

You do know that the fact that the DPRK has thousands of artillery pieces aimed past the DMZ has warded off war for the past 50 years, right? It's called mutually assured destruction, and it's not just limited to superpowers with nuclear weapons.

No it is not that at all...

The fact North Korea lost 40% of its population fighting a handful of allied troops has kept the North Koreans, Chinese and the Russia who supplied hardware and assistance at bay, the huge military build up in North Korea and on the DMZ has been out of fear of getting her arse kicked again, and on the South side of the boarder has always been about defence against the brutal communist

Let's remember that the Korean War started when the communist North Koreans stormed over the DMZ after the country was divide on the 38th parallel at the end of WWII bringing an end to Japanese rule since 1910

The allies nor the South Koreans started anything, it was Russian and Chinese influence who sent the North Koreas over the boarder and it was the allies who sent peace keepers the war was largely ignored in the western world and was know as the forgotten war

And as for your claims that just taking their planes in the air would be a "suicide mission"- shows how little you know about North Korean / communist culture. DPRK pilots have probably been flying their jets since they were in their teenage years, and know their aircraft better than some American pilot that is handed some aircraft to fly with a service contract ranging a set amount of years. As I explained to you before, technological superiority is one of many factors. Have you ever considered the stress that an American pilot may experience when faced with the possibility of what would happened to them should their aircraft not make it out of North Korean territory during a mission? That's a factor that can't be measured in high-tech simulators.

I don't think that matters in the slightest

I've know my car for longer than a lot of formula 1 racing drivers and there new cars but I would t beat them in a race...

As I said before the US will need to secure air superiority before flying vulnerable legacy fighters over the North or at least corridors creating safe zones or safer zones, the US just is t sending its airforce over a SAM riddled North Korea that's called stupidity and suicide