Tactical advantage: Russian military shows off impressive new gear

a reply to: stumason

I feel like we're on the same page for the most part however I am integrating unconfirmed but fairly sound extrapolations of moves the Russians and Chinese have made over the preceding 6 months that I believe were in anticipation of this or something like it.

That being said I spit out the 6 months number for when we could at EARLIEST start rolling heavy divisions into the area based on the idea that if the Russians did do a full ground invasion of the Ukraine using their preplaced assets and NATO decided on fighting to take Ukraine back that we'd end up with a large portion of our prepositioned division sets destroyed in place be they at sea or in depots. Really Putin wouldn't have any incentive NOT to attack division sets before we could get the personnel flew in to man them.

Also bear in mind that China just inked a deal with the now DEPOSED ukranian regime for a multi decade lease of something like 9% of the total farmland in Ukraine! What do you want to bet that the new regime is at the very least holding it's hand out demanding they be "paid" for the deal to go through?

Also the 6 month number also reflects some sort of provisional plan for sending in american experts to restart Germany's nuke plants and maybe even start building new nuke plants since western europe is at this point 100% dependent on Russian pipelines for a pretty significant double digit percentage of their heating and power generation! (This also ties in with division set destruction and or local powers in the countries where the division sets lie telling the US they will have to shoot down incoming flights of personnel heading there to man the division sets because if they let the planes land their citizens will freeze or starve when gazprom shuts off the pipeline!

Either way you end up with a panicked transfer of men and materiel as close as possible and then some sort of daisy chain multi method transfer route to move the men and equipment to the AO all the while facing spetsnaz raids and god knows what else as well as a rising tide of violence like we've never seen before from areas with militant islamic populations fostered by former KGB handlers arranging large shipments of Norinco built and transported arms and ordnance to dozens of hot spots.

If NATO managed to somehow mass the requisite 6 to 1 advantage in men and materiel close enough to ukraine under those circumstances they'd then face an extremely well dug in foe with all of the advantages I already stated...


It is for this reason that barring a breakout of total bat feces insanity and stupidity among western governments its safe to say Ukraine is lost already.

originally posted by: roguetechie
a reply to: stumason

Stu i wish ib shared your optimism... but while you won't catch me saying russian tank guns come even close to nato 105 and 120mm guns and ammo in ANY category! Its a very big question mark how many drozd and follow on APS sets they've retrofitted to 1st 2nd and tertiary line armored vehicles!

The reason I bring this up is because of the likely mechanics of any confrontation we may face in the Ukraine.

1. If Putin decides to annex all of Ukraine he'd have basically 6 months to move armored units into the built up areas of Ukraine he wants to keep. This all but negates our better IFV AFV and MBT sighting systems and all around superior main gun accuracy, penetration, and maximum range. Hell really it then becomes an ATGM and PGM based artillery fight in many key ways. In that type of fight a Russian armored force with 75% or better of its armour sporting APS of one type or another would be an extremely telling advantage.

Not remotely close. If a real war was happening today air power makes for everything and Russian ground forces would face intense air-to-ground attack continuously.

Even worse ! It would FOR SURE come to a ground fight!! And it would be one where allied forces would not be able to depend on air dominance or even a sky free of enemy aircraft during this fight! The russians have a very competent and layered air defense network

Yes, in Russia.

that is capable of deploying with combat units that would have Allied units battling to just stay alive even if Putin chose not to commit substantial airpower assets to the fight!

He certainly would because it would be suicide not to, but there's no way Russia could maintain air superiority over Ukraine, and after that any moving Russian ground forces are vulnerable.

On top of this Russian troops especially VDV spetsnaz and et cetera are very much equipped with a very major destructive throw weight advantage from the squad level on up! Things like better lighter cheaper and much more plentiful High explosive weapons of all varieties would give even non elite units an edge over their american counterparts. The elite units though have an even more telling throw weight advantage as well as access to individual weapons easily capable of penetrating ESAPI plates at 0- 200 meters! Combine this with much longer ranged LMG and SAW type weapons also capable of penetrating ESAPI plates with current issue AP loadings and you have a nightmare scenario!

There's also the fact that the US Marine Corps & some Army divisions are experienced in major combined arms combat and Russians aren't.

Russia now has the world’s third-highest defense budget, at over $70 billion

And just think, they spent over 50 billion on the last winter Olympics alone, and still the buildings were incomplete, lol. What's more, that 70 billion isn't even close to what the US spends, so the point is moot.

a reply to: mbkennel

You apparently chose not to read my posts.

First off assuming American air dominance is extraordinarily stupid! Could I see a situation where Russian airpower couldn't sortie against our ground troops.... absolutely!

However American airpower would also absolutely not be able to support allied ground forces due to the extremely competent and quite frankly peerless multilayer and highly mobile antiaircraft assets! Honestly if you Haven't done your due diligence on Russian IADS capabilities including against "stealth" systems you are sorely lacking information.

I'm thinking lack of information is the source of your overconfidence considering you don't know about the very public and disastrous exercise held here in the US recently simulating this type of fight! Basically the op for stomped them.

You really should do your research before "refuting" a post.... also I'm using primarily information and capabilities estimates from US military and NATO sources... so what "knowledge" do you have that serving military personnel do not?

originally posted by: roguetechie
a reply to: mbkennel

You apparently chose not to read my posts.

First off assuming American air dominance is extraordinarily stupid! Could I see a situation where Russian airpower couldn't sortie against our ground troops.... absolutely!

However American airpower would also absolutely not be able to support allied ground forces due to the extremely competent and quite frankly peerless multilayer and highly mobile antiaircraft assets! Honestly if you Haven't done your due diligence on Russian IADS capabilities including against "stealth" systems you are sorely lacking information.

I'm thinking lack of information is the source of your overconfidence considering you don't know about the very public and disastrous exercise held here in the US recently simulating this type of fight! Basically the op for stomped them.

You really should do your research before "refuting" a post.... also I'm using primarily information and capabilities estimates from US military and NATO sources... so what "knowledge" do you have that serving military personnel do not?

And you seem to be far to confident in Russian ADs

The fact that you and guys like you think that Russia can stand up to not just America but NATO in general is laughable.

A quick look at global firepower's website shows you that USA has superior numbers in almost every category and this isnt even factoring in NATO.

The other think you are not considering is the damage that NATO and USA can do economically to Russia via sanctions. The MILD sanctions placed on Russia during the crisis in Ukraine was proof enough of that.

And if all else fails, back to my original point. The NATO navy would completely decimate any Russian naval presence in the black sea then proceed to lob JASSM, JASSM-ER, and Tomahawks into Russian lines while NATO air power neutralize any ADs in the area (see link below). After all that is said and done, Russian ground forces would be up #s creek.

www.youtube.com...

*Keep in mind, those tactics would be used in conjunction with JASSM and electronic attack aircraft like the Growler.

Dont take this to mean i dont expect it to be messy, im not discounting the Russians but i always hear this propaganda BS on these websites from Russian fan boys claiming this AD can kill F-22 and our helicopter is better and our tank is better etc etc....

Russia has amazing ADs and against lesser enemies it would be formidable, hell its even formidable to NATO but this inst Kosovo, we learned from that and adapted. We have new HARMs and new technologies to support them with even more advanced stuff like the HELLADs program on the way.

No one wants a war with Russia but dont think for one second Russia could protect its massive borders from NATO for very long.

And none of this if factoring in cyber warfare in which case NATO and the USA is FAR superior to Russia and would most likely have the communications, power grids, and satellites down within hours. All speculation of course and i dont feel all that confident with many things about my government but one things they always know how to do better than anyone else and that is wage a war.

Also, could you link a reliable source where the USA simulated this and was "stomped"?

Why bother with all that armor and exploding things when the US has a death ray? I suppose they have a death ray too, so why all the sabre rattling that signifies nothing?

Hey everyone, love the site however I am new here and this will be my first post. I tried posting my own thread but came to the realization that there was a prerequisite of posting 20 times before permission was given.

I'm here to share with you a story I just found on YouTube of a US Burke-class Warship that was strategically 'demoralized' by a Russian SU-24 outfitted with a "Khibiny" electronic warfare device which is capable of a complete radar systems blackout, the aircraft proceeded to run 12 precision simulated missile attacks against the warship. According to reports 27 individual sailors aboard the USS Donald Cook requested to be relieved from active service.

Voltairenet

I hope this is the appropriate thread to post this on...

It's the man who makes the soldier not his equipment. It doesn't matter a great deal that Russia has more modern kit and equipment if you think about it. As far back as the 50s when forces equipped with soviet weaponry and kit have squared up against western supplied forces, they have had their arses handed to them. Russia's strength has and always will be the overwhelming size and tough faced tactics of her forces.

agree with sg1642,

I don't worry so much about the character and caliber of our individual military recruit.

I worry about our leadership. Not just in political circles...for which this caliber has taken a huge nose dive. But also among the ranks of our professional military personnel. They too have taken a nose dive. Men of experience and grit..know how...have been driven out of the military and put in their papers to get out. They have seen the handwriting on the wall. They have been replaced with politically reliable people..yes men...not with shooters. Particularly in certain key positions in military leadership. This is going too cost us seriously when we do finally and again get into another shooting war. And there is one coming ...soon.

Lack of real leadership..from top to bottom.


Orangetom

a reply to: matafuchs

OH MY GOD.......They have green tipped ammo and this is the new tech....................Come on guys.

Well usa is making iron man!

originally posted by: sg1642
Russia's strength has and always will be the overwhelming size and tough faced tactics of her forces.

Except Russia can no longer enjoy "overwhelming size". Her population is a fraction of Europe's and her active service military is vastly outnumbered by NATO. They haven't got the Eastern Bloc countries to back them up this time.

originally posted by: stumason
They haven't got the Eastern Bloc countries to back them up this time.

And NATO does. Poland would fight like hell.

originally posted by: orangetom1999
agree with sg1642,

I don't worry so much about the character and caliber of our individual military recruit.

I worry about our leadership. Not just in political circles...for which this caliber has taken a huge nose dive. But also among the ranks of our professional military personnel. They too have taken a nose dive. Men of experience and grit..know how...have been driven out of the military and put in their papers to get out. They have seen the handwriting on the wall. They have been replaced with politically reliable people..yes men...not with shooters. Particularly in certain key positions in military leadership. This is going too cost us seriously when we do finally and again get into another shooting war. And there is one coming ...soon.

Lack of real leadership..from top to bottom.


Orangetom

What leaders exactly are you talking about? Nobody I know. knows anything about people leaving abnormally or people with out combat commands being moved up.

a reply to: MrSpad

What leaders exactly are you talking about? Nobody I know. knows anything about people leaving abnormally or people with out combat commands being moved up.

This has been going on steadily with certain administrations...but in particular this current administration. People becoming disgusted with the politically correct military life and getting out. They have decided to take their chances in the civilian marketplace.
The military has become to big of a social experiment ..someone's private social experiment.

I have heard this from a number or Navy Chiefs who decided to get out...and for these reasons. Also other men in the Non Com rates.

Particularly in certain key positions in military leadership.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Well, we need to lose the 5.56 and step up to the far better 243. in our Stoners/M4s to get full penetration and longer range ballistics. 25mm grenade launchers would be an added advantage over the current 203. 40mm. Plus take another look at Dragon skin body armor and fix any issues it might have and dump the old stuff?
Drones are the future, and every soldier should have their own personal weaponized drones this would also give us a greater advantage

Other than that, i don't see where we could gain any further advantage, other than advanced Alien Technology

originally posted by: roguetechie
a reply to: mbkennel

You apparently chose not to read my posts.

First off assuming American air dominance is extraordinarily stupid! Could I see a situation where Russian airpower couldn't sortie against our ground troops.... absolutely!

However American airpower would also absolutely not be able to support allied ground forces due to the extremely competent and quite frankly peerless multilayer and highly mobile antiaircraft assets! Honestly if you Haven't done your due diligence on Russian IADS capabilities including against "stealth" systems you are sorely lacking information.

I'm thinking lack of information is the source of your overconfidence considering you don't know about the very public and disastrous exercise held here in the US recently simulating this type of fight! Basically the op for stomped them.

You really should do your research before "refuting" a post.... also I'm using primarily information and capabilities estimates from US military and NATO sources... so what "knowledge" do you have that serving military personnel do not?

LOL WAR IS NOT A VIDEO GAME...

their is such a thing called strategy.. Their is only a handful of people alive who were part of the world war, who can tell you how a WORLD war would be.. I also bet most people would not listen to them either, and continue to debate a conventional war like a video game..

But I will say the USAF and the NAVY have allot of planes with ordinances, yet our enemy is aware of that as well... Which means, they are.... Wait for it..... STRATEGIZING!!

PS I am not being mean either..

Wow,
I seem to have unleashed a Sith all star team's worth of butthurt...
. good good
First: Bicent... Bicent bicent bicent....
Strategizing? You should seriously be ashamed of the patton quotes in your sig... Or more aptly the patent quotes are ashamed of that post!
So first things first some of you almost made a couple of semi decent points, especially considering that they lost 5 planes in July just trying to get them in the air!!
But where you lose the plot is in the idea that the Russians will just ALLOW our cruise missiles to sail in and cripple the very few key nodes that the Russians don't have hidden, multiply redundant, and or constantly manned multiply redundant work arounds... Well you're in fantasy land.

Plainly put, even the growlers which I think are some of the most exciting aircraft from the west outside of a non Scandinavian grippen COULD BE, can and will be outclassed because of a bottleneck well known to anyone whose swore a bluestreak when their phone/gps/computer/BRAIN IN YOUR JEANS POCKET dies because you left your aux power pack or cable cluster**** home!!!

That's right ladies and gentlemen combat airframes have the same limitations your celly telly does... That limitation is just how much in the way of kWh or mWh you can coerce into an aircraft that makes a sausage casing look like a roomy meat motor coach! (kWh = kilowatt hours making mWh megawatt hours) Simply put those big friggin fans burners and compressor stages have to keep our growlers airborne and most likely going in and out of the subsonic transonic and supersonic range as they wildly vary altitude just to get in close enough to be on the same horizon as what they need to jam!! Meanwhile the Russians Chinese and others most likely have been quietly pooling resources on various $500 solutions to $500 million dollar systems we field... (I'll not even paint the picture at the true level of grim by pointing out all the joint exercises where we demo our systems in situations nearly ideal for ELINT and SIGINT assets to Hoover up very dangerous hints. Nor will I Hammer the DOD jobs program... Err procurement pipeline that further exacerbates the various electronic means by which we're also being compromised... Hell I'll even pretend like things like Lockheed outright blatantly robbing Patria in an upcoming USMC tender and how this has went on for awhile and is just finally so blatant that it's being talked about openly... Because we've been peeing in LOTS OF PEOPLES CORN FLAKES... people not known for taking yellow breakfast bowls lightly even ...
. but I'm a nice guy I'll let you have all this....
. Now here are the things I can't let go
1. Spetsnaz VDV Naval infantry: Few people here are even accurately portraying the TWO segments of Russian active strategy in even limited warfare. You are focusing on the Russian ANVIL that is the wall of t72 rpg7v dragunovs pkp pecheng and mobile air defense umbrella optimized to stop subsonic AND SUPERSONIC platforms and inbound munitions from eating too badly into the wall of steel and diesel fumes that is the Russian main body force....
.
But you are conveniently forgetting the hammer.... Because what good is an anvil without a hammer?
That hammer is the massive spetsnaz VDV and naval infantry contingent that not only dwarfs SOCOM in sheer size but also in the capabilities and systems they have and can drop with into the field. (Sparky may be kinda out there but he's right to shove things like Russian airdropped armour into the limelight... Before you decry it as sub par just remind yourself of one tiny fact... It EXISTS, it's IN INVENTORY, and IT WORKS.... Our ONLY system like it is now pretty much salted across gunnery and bombing ranges as TARGETS!)

If it was just the anvil we would have never worried. The hammer raging in our extremely vulnerable and laughably unarmed rear areas ... Well you know what they say about not dropping the soap in prison...
.
2. Ratnik: Yup I'm bringing up ratnik but I'll wait and see what the SITH ALL STARS scared up in the way of new butthurt first.
(to be continued)

originally posted by: orangetom1999
a reply to: MrSpad

What leaders exactly are you talking about? Nobody I know. knows anything about people leaving abnormally or people with out combat commands being moved up.

This has been going on steadily with certain administrations...but in particular this current administration. People becoming disgusted with the politically correct military life and getting out. They have decided to take their chances in the civilian marketplace.
The military has become to big of a social experiment ..someone's private social experiment.

I have heard this from a number or Navy Chiefs who decided to get out...and for these reasons. Also other men in the Non Com rates.

Particularly in certain key positions in military leadership.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Welcome to the last 200 years of the military. Enlisted people complaining and the military leading the way on social issues is pretty much what the US military has been since it became a professional force. None of that is new, in fact it is simply the way it has always been.

MrSPad,

Welcome to the last 200 years of the military. Enlisted people complaining and the military leading the way on social issues is pretty much what the US military has been since it became a professional force. None of that is new, in fact it is simply the way it has always been.

Negative, It has gone beyond that now..way beyond that now.
This is not just Enlisted People but officers today as well. They too are getting out. You now have in motion a system where what you know and can do means little next to political correctness...quotas..political appointees and thus..real leadership will be found to be lacking next to the PC agenda. It is becoming rapidly an infected virus spirialing out of control. This will become evident with our next scheduled war. It is not all the gadgets or gimmicks ..technology per se..but the leadership ....and will to succeed. This has been hijacked...stolen..ceded to political correctness and is waxing worse...and worse. We are going the way of the UK military...continental Europe too.
It is going to cost a lot of American lives in the next war..and there will be a next war.

Orangetom