Tactical advantage: Russian military shows off impressive new gear

In the Ukraine, the Russians are showing new tech that has some talking. A retired US Army Major General is quoted in this article and it does not bode well for the US it would seem. New body armor would make the taking of Kiev much easier and give a big tactical advantage. Russia is now the 3rd largest in defense spending in the world and has made many advances in the last decade.

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“What we saw and what was dangled in front of the West was a clear indication that Putin is on a roll,” retired U.S. Army Maj. Gen. Robert Scales said. “It just seems to me from watching the films that their arrows are pointing up and ours are sadly pointing down.”
Weapons specialists such as Gen. Scales have been studying images of Spetsnaz, Russia’s ubiquitous special forces, and airborne troops since they conquered the Crimea region and mobilized to strike eastern Ukraine.
What they see are the fruits of a modernization plan begun in 2008, not just in tanks and vehicles but all the way down to the individual warrior. Russia now has the world’s third-highest defense budget, at over $70 billion.
“They’ve got better equipment than they had five years ago,” said Scott Traudt, an executive with Green Mountain, a Vermont gun manufacturer. “They’ve got new grenade launchers that are awesome. The helmets are better than our helmets. The body armor is better than our body armor. They’re doing a lot of things right. I’m pretty amazed at it.”

Not only is the body armor protected against 5.56 ammo, it seems the ammunition that they are using, recently banned in the US by the ATF as armor piercing, is also very dangerous.

Gen. Scales said the Russians carry AK-74s whose magazine is loaded with 5.45 “steel core” ammunition — a round that on April 8 the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives banned from importation because the agency deemed it armor-piercing.
Gen. Scales described the 5.45 as “extremely lethal against any kind of body armor.”
While some national leaders focus on big defense issues, Mr. Putin has taken a personal interest in one of the smallest: the rifle. Last year, his government consolidated rifle manufacturing into one new firm, the Kalashnikov Corp., named after the AK’s famous inventor, Mikhail Kalashnikov.
“Putin actually goes out and shoots these things,” Gen. Scales said.
U.S. soldiers have complained that their main rifle and round, the M4 carbine and its 5.56, lacked lethality in Afghanistan against a Taliban enemy that does not often wear body armor. Without a shot to the head, the enemy could take several 5.56 hits and keep going, soldiers said in surveys.

Read the article to find out what else is upgraded and what the US should have concerns for and what NATO says Ukraine needs now to defend itself.

a reply to: matafuchs Well I for one think that this is great news .Not so good news for any ill equipped military force to go up against .I would imagine that Russia would have some technology as well as the west neither side is aware of .If a rag tag army like the Taliban (a US invention) could be a cause for concern in battle for both the Russians and US then a well trained organized Russian machine should be able to hold their own .It not like they are going to invade anyone too soon ....peace

a reply to: matafuchs

Well the informants from your sources are either fake, ill-informed, or idiots. 5.45 AP rounds are not AP. They have a mild steel core, not armor piercing. Yes yes, it may be deceiving, but match mild steel against trauma plates and the trauma plates will win all day.

The only AP factor to it is its ability to penetrate a Kevlar helmet. A 5.56 m855 will do the same as well.. no real advantage here especially after you consider that 1000+ft/lbs of energy hitting your helmet is gonna seriously F U up regardless of if it penetrates or not.

This seems like fear mongering.. my 2 cents.. yes I'm a gun guy... a big one.

This world could be a much happier place if we spent as much on creating joy as we currently do on killing one another. Some humans are horrible animals...and they, for the most part, seem to be the ones in control. It will likely only get worse before it gets better. I dream of a day when the world throws a 70 billion dollar keg party.

originally posted by: doompornjunkie
a reply to: matafuchs

Well the informants from your sources are either fake, ill-informed, or idiots. 5.45 AP rounds are not AP. They have a mild steel core, not armor piercing. Yes yes, it may be deceiving, but match mild steel against trauma plates and the trauma plates will win all day.

The only AP factor to it is its ability to penetrate a Kevlar helmet. A 5.56 m855 will do the same as well.. no real advantage here especially after you consider that 1000+ft/lbs of energy hitting your helmet is gonna seriously F U up regardless of if it penetrates or not.

This seems like fear mongering.. my 2 cents.. yes I'm a gun guy... a big one.

This was exactly what I was thinking. Well said.

I am not fear mongering. I am reposting a new article.

I put this in as reference to the ATF banning them and why. I believe they, the ATF, looks at the metal content of the round to determine if it would be a APR, correct 'gun guy'..the big one...

Here you go...

link

They were also referring to the 7N6 ammo specifically, not all 5.45x39 rounds. Just like you mentioned the m885 round.

a reply to: doompornjunkie

You are 100% correct. The green tip round is not armor piercing. It was made to penetrate a helmet at 300 yards and was used for the SAW squad weapon.


I see so many people buying these rounds and then saying look I have armor piercing............It is a good line to see who is in the know and who is not.

I actually had the opportunity to observe someone taking an AK round in the back of their Kevlar once and it was not a pretty thing to see at all.

The guy survived the immediate impact of the round itself but the face-plant he did afterwards about did him in.
a reply to: doompornjunkie

The Russian Special Forces have always been well equiped and trained. With all the troubles the Russian military has had that is the one part of it that has been maintained. The forces involved in this from the Russia side are the very best trained and equiped that they have. That however does not translate to the rest of the Army where reforms have never seemed to take hold. Of course it is not uncommon for retired Generals to spread a little fear to help their buddies at the Pentagon out with budget cuts coming. Although to be honest the military budget could be cut without any harm if Congress let the military decide what the needed or wanted instead of making the take X amount of plane, tank, ships etc. they do not want but, then have to maintain because it is build in (insert congress member here) district.

On the conventional side, Gen. Scales said, the Russians do not have an answer to U.S. Apache gunship helicopters and armored vehicles.

Wait what?

That is of course if Gen. Scales has forgotten the Mil mi-24'S the Mil mi-28'S and the Ka-52'S. All of which are helicopter gunships.

As for armored vehicles I'm not so certain, although they are thought to be behind there are pointers towards a new main battle tank for 2015/16.

I was actually wondering with groups like Blackwater or formerly Blackwater etc....there are dozens of them..mpri, grey group...triple canopy etc....imagine them just hiring a few to train their military. Since they are kind of mercs anyway ..you know a handful hopped over to help with more modern up to date training.

The standard 5.56 round does lack lethality tho, I don't think we can ignore reports from our troops in Afghanistan it's something to take note about

a reply to: matafuchs

Gun and body armour aside what ever new equipment Russia decide to field they really should make sure its EMP hardened/shielded because that's how NATO intend to stop them dead in their tracks should they decide to rattle there Saber any further into Europe. Point of fact it's probably the only way to stop them given their superior numbers regarding tanks and APCs.

originally posted by: doompornjunkie
a reply to: matafuchs

Well the informants from your sources are either fake, ill-informed, or idiots. 5.45 AP rounds are not AP. They have a mild steel core, not armor piercing. Yes yes, it may be deceiving, but match mild steel against trauma plates and the trauma plates will win all day.

The only AP factor to it is its ability to penetrate a Kevlar helmet. A 5.56 m855 will do the same as well.. no real advantage here especially after you consider that 1000+ft/lbs of energy hitting your helmet is gonna seriously F U up regardless of if it penetrates or not.

This seems like fear mongering.. my 2 cents.. yes I'm a gun guy... a big one.

I'd like to echo this as well.

M855 also has a steel core and it is not considered armor piercing. 5.45x39 7N9 steel core ammo was banned by the ATF for the same reasons this article reads like an ill-informed fear mongering rag...Because the ATF does not understand what they are regulating, and the person who wrote the article does not understand the ballistics of the round in question.

Currently the more powerful 7.62x39 steel core round used by armies all over the world, the round most typically used in the AK47, does not defeat ESAPI plating, the plate currently used by US ground forces.

originally posted by: DodgyDawg

On the conventional side, Gen. Scales said, the Russians do not have an answer to U.S. Apache gunship helicopters and armored vehicles.

Wait what?

That is of course if Gen. Scales has forgotten the Mil mi-24'S the Mil mi-28'S and the Ka-52'S. All of which are helicopter gunships.

As for armored vehicles I'm not so certain, although they are thought to be behind there are pointers towards a new main battle tank for 2015/16.

In terms of maneuverabilty the KA 52s have the advantage. But the longbow system give the Apache 1st look, 1st shot capability that the Russians do not yet have.

Thus far the Apache Block 3 does not have an equal on the battlefield.

US Army helicopters are kinda my thing

But we shouldn't forget that Russia's new technologies and gear have not been implemented across their entire armed forces. I would estimate that the bulk of their equipment is still inferior to that of the US. But as I mentioned in another thread, Russia can field an army at least twice the size of the US. Russia has anti-air systems that are superior to those the US has, and it could wreak some havoc on US planes flying nearby. But US jet fighters are superior in technology, although mostly inferior in handling and maneuverability...But that really doesn't matter in today's "dogfights," as they take place from a longer range.

I think a war between the US and Russia would be a coinflip. Each side has certain advantages. Russia, if fighting on its home turf, would have the advantage afforded to it for centuries...It is freaking huge, lol. And Russia has traditionally sacrificed so much for victory. And then, if Russia were doing to lose a war, they would just ensure mutually assured destruction. Nuclear weapons would not be used at the outset of any modern war, rather only at the end, when one side must lose.

a reply to: matafuchs

Gen. Scales described the 5.45 as “extremely lethal against any kind of body armor.”

The 5.45 is extremely deadly because it has a hollow cavity in the bullet. (And no, the 7n6 that was banned in not "AP". Im not sure why the General was saying the 5.45 was so deadly because the 7n6 was AP....sounds like he had the right conclusion with the rounds being extremely deadly, but he got to that conclusion the wrong way. Additionally, he said the 5.45 rounds was banned. Well, that's wrong also, it was just the milsurp 7n6 5.45 ammo). Here's a picture of what the inside of the bullet looks like.



Because of that hollow pocket, once the bullet hits a person, it will almost immediately yaw and tumble around inside of the person as it passes through. This really tears up the inside of the person and causes more damage than other common rounds, such as 5.56 or 7.62x39.

Plus the 5.45 is lighter than the previously used 7.62x39 (7.62x39 was for AK-47s). With the 5.45 being lighter, soldiers can carry more of it now to.

ETA - Forgot to mention that there's virtually no recoil felt from the 5.45. It's just a tad bit less than 5.56 (which is extremely mild recoil to)

a reply to: buni11687

No. Standard 5.56 with appropriate velocity yaws the same way. Hence the downside of a sbr weapon at extended distances.

Mount A-10 warthog cannons on everything.

Problem solved

a reply to: TiedDestructor

Standard 5.56 with appropriate velocity yaws the same way. Hence the downside of a sbr weapon at extended distances.

That is true. 2 rounds designed for different length barrels. Im no expert in ballistics so Im still learning everyday.

Here's the best ballistics gel comparison I could find between the 2 cartridges. The first image is 5.45. Second is M193, 55 grain. Third is M855, 62 grain.

firearmstactical.com...







Both do massive damage, just a bit differently.