"No man can see Me and live" - Angels as representatives of the unseen God.

The Bible states in more than one place that God is unseen by man. In John 1, it is declared that No man hath seen God at any time. Paul states the same thing in 1 Timothy. In Exodus 33, God Himself declares that "no man can see Me and live". This in itself establishes that God cannot be seen by man. Yet throughout the Bible, there are several instances where "God" was not only seen by humans (who survived the experience), but also ate, was spoken to face-to-face, forced to give blessings and fails to overpower a man in a wrestling match!


Example 1) Hagar is blessed by an angel who is addressed as "God" (Genesis 16:7-14)
The angel of the Lord found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. And he said, “Hagar, slave of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?” .... She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”

- Though the text explicitly says Hagar met an "angel", Hagar proclaims she "saw" God.



Example 2) Jacob extorts a blessing from a "man" and then proclaims he has "seen" God. (Genesis 32:24-30)
So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him....But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”....Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.” .....So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

- Obviously, the man was an angel in human form. Like Hagar, Jacob also proclaims he "saw" God, despite the text saying otherwise.



Example 3) An angel tells Jacob in a dream "I am God". (Genesis 31:11-13)
The angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob.’ I answered, ‘Here I am.’ And he said, ‘Look up and see that all the male goats mating with the flock are streaked, speckled or spotted, for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Now leave this land at once and go back to your native land.’”

- Here an angel appears in Jacobs dream and tells him he is "God".



Example 4) Moses encounters an angel as a burning bush, who says "I am God" (Exodus 3:2-4)
There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.” When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”

- An "angel" appears as fire, which then starts speaking as "God".



From the above, it appears there are two contradictory propositions within the Bible. One being man has not seen God and the other that man has seen God. Logically, they both simply cannot be true at the same time. Either man has seen God or he hasn't.

To complicate matters further, in the 4 examples I've presented, the "angel" of the Lord is constantly referred to and identified as "God". So if the "angel of the Lord" is not God and if the proposition that man has not seen God is true, then it can be concluded safely that the angels were just representing the presence of God in a form visible to humans. The angels were a visible form that spoke for God, who as He declared cannot be seen. This explanation can be applied to other instances where men supposedly "saw" God, one example being Abraham's encounter with the three "men" while hearing God's words.

In other words Hagar, Jacob, Moses, Abraham etc all saw visible angels - as men, fires - while hearing the words of God, who spoke through them. God has never seen by man.

God knows best.

The unseen God is within all of us.

Romans 1
20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

The invisible qualities of God are our thoughts, emotions, feelings, memories, dreams, hopes, etc. all of which are invisible yet "clearly seen, being understood by what has been made" within the mind of the one thinking/feeling those things. When you think of an elephant that image is an invisible quality of God that is clearly seen.

Moses seeing a burning bush that isn't burned up is a metaphor for vision. Fire creates light, our vision is the "fire" a that creates the light we see, so I see "burning bushes" every day that do not actually burn up.

Gravity is an invisible quality of God, as are inertia, dark matter, etc. Anything that is technically invisible to us is an invisible quality of God. "Angels" are fundamental forces of nature, there's nothing supernatural about them at all.

The writings and sayings of religious holy books are based on the personal experiences of people who were trying to put existence and life itself into words in my opinion. They were explaining things that we all experience, except they wrapped them in metaphor and stories.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

. . . the angels were just representing the presence of God in a form visible to humans.

So we have no idea of what or who God is then.
All we know is persons or at least stories involving persons who seem very much like people other than special abilities like foretelling the future.
Jesus fits in with that general description, for example, he says to Nathaniel that he saw him praying under a fig tree, and then Nathaniel believes that he is the messiah.
But he is firmly identified as a man, so is different in that regard.
According to the gospel a lot of Jews were put off by that, apparently expecting someone more god-like but really that person would have only been more angelic.

I think its because they were referring to different "gods" or aliens. Simple proof the bible was interpreted incorrectly.

Think of it like trying to look inside a ps3 while in operation. That would be the creator and the owner/controller is GOD.

reply to post by drz400


Heh, you start by "I THINK", AND DECLARE IT as a simple truth?

When YAH spoke the world into existance, the simple truth is the act is part of Him. All the material realm is from Him. But because of iniquity, the part that cannot be Him, we see a seperation. Mistake? PROBABLY NOT since that is the reason given in the first place, I.e., iniquity cannot exist in His presence. This is the reason for the sacrifice needed to make us whole in order to stand in His presence without dying instantly.

ok, back to the event, Yah speaking. Imagine the power. That power is Yah as well, is it not?
Well all the ancient scribes thought so as well, as did the Bible authors.
The logos or "Word" that was the action that organized Yahs thoughts, through speaking the world as we know it into material existance is just as much Yah as is the Powerthat spoke. The power that was used is Yah speaking. The Word or Logos is Yah in essence and truth. Yeshua or Yashayah is the Word. He is all that the creation within this material realm can ever know or see of Yah because of our limitations in this realm. We can only understand with the mind we posess in this realm. We cannot fathom nor fully grasp the infinate because we are limited to finite thinking. Everything has a beginningand an end. Yeshua claims to be that. The alpha and omega, the beginning and end. He is everything we can ever know about Yah in this material existance. He is the manifistation of Yah. If you know Him, you know the Father.

jmdewey60
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

. . . the angels were just representing the presence of God in a form visible to humans.

So we have no idea of what or who God is then.
All we know is persons or at least stories involving persons who seem very much like people other than special abilities like foretelling the future.
Jesus fits in with that general description,

in this world, we can only know God through his attributes...omniscience, omnipotence, mercy etc. The western anthromorphic image of God as being a well built, bearded old man (like in the sistine chapel) is a product of human imagination, probably inspired by similar depictions of Roman and God greek deities. Though Christians dont worship the 'old man' image of God, the Bible never permitted humans to depict Him visually in any form.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I thought the Bible depicted God actually sitting in a chariot infront or above of Ezekiel. There, is a description of him.

However, I don't think the term "God" is anything other than generic and means Lord, which men around 2000 + years ago addressed their boss by.

A supernatural being which we have be induced to understand God is, would probably need literally a supernatural description. From some of the Bible we understand he is 'in the light' Our eyes I expect can't differentiate him from light and a blinding light is too much for our optical senses.

However, why, if one can create a whole material world, how come he can't simply create a form for us to see? The Priesthood is always keen to tell us that he is busily watching each and every one of us sin? It is beyond logic and sadly beyond common sense.

@Shiloh7....I thought the Bible depicted God actually sitting in a chariot infront or above of Ezekiel. There, is a description of him

The angels representing God show up in a variety of forms, light angels, flames, pillars of smoke/fire etc. Ezekiels vision was another example, of angelic beings present amidst divine activity.

The Priesthood is always keen to tell us that he is busily watching each and every one of us sin?

Being omniscient means God is aware of everything... Not just individual deeds but all of creation, right down to the smallest particle.

sk0rpi0n

@Shiloh7....I thought the Bible depicted God actually sitting in a chariot infront or above of Ezekiel. There, is a description of him

The angels representing God show up in a variety of forms, light angels, flames, pillars of smoke/fire etc. Ezekiels vision was another example, of angelic beings present amidst divine activity.

The Priesthood is always keen to tell us that he is busily watching each and every one of us sin?

Being omniscient means God is aware of everything... Not just individual deeds but all of creation, right down to the smallest particle.

Which leaves little excuse for his failing to foresee the consequences of his actions at the very beginning, when he still had a chance to make everything exactly the way he wanted it the first time. Our flaws are his fault, ergo, so is his anger and disappointment in us. He knew exactly what would happen, from the first second to the very last, and still did it. There is your bed sir, now lie in it!

I think there are ways out of this apparent contradiction. First, some of these instances could have been of God acting and speaking through an intermediary. Actually, that makes the most sense to me. Or, God could have meant that nobody can see Him in His true form, or something like that, considering that God could most likely take any form He wished, seeing as how He created everything. If one believes that of course. But regardless of whether one believes in God, it is still possible to debate theology.

So I just think that these are a couple of potential explanations, but there are likely others as well. So I don't necessarily see a contradiction. It could be considered a contradiction, but I have often found that it takes actually delving into the translations themselves, as often there are things implied in the source text that don't necessarily carry over into English. If I wasn't feeling lazy I would do a little research, lol.

AfterInfinity
sk0rpi0n

Shiloh7 I thought the Bible depicted God actually sitting in a chariot infront or above of Ezekiel. There, is a description of him; The angels representing God show up in a variety of forms, light angels, flames, pillars of smoke/fire etc. Ezekiels vision was another example, of angelic beings present amidst divine activity.

Those are sephirophs; spheres of consciousness; from the material up to the area where No god sits; as it is a plasma being not of matter; just of 1s and 0s awareness; nothing but having the potential to create matterform (it did in fact). Angels are of the lower realms of Yesod and Hod.

skOrpiOn The Priesthood is always keen to tell us that he is busily watching each and every one of us sin? Being omniscient means God is aware of everything... Not just individual deeds but all of creation, right down to the smallest particle.

The only reason God knows everything is that it resides in you and is the best KGB /CIA agent ever; it will out you to yourself and tattle all secrets EGO to yourself.

AfterInfinityWhich leaves little excuse for his failing to foresee the consequences of his actions at the very beginning, when he still had a chance to make everything exactly the way he wanted it the first time. Our flaws are his fault, ergo, so is his anger and disappointment in us. He knew exactly what would happen, from the first second to the very last, and still did it. There is your bed sir, now lie in it.

You would have thought God (in its perfection) would have gotten this right first time around and not have to go through a rewash/hash (kill the specie again restart) and another rinse cycles to get it AGAIN CORRECT. Lots of chances to perfect this ecosystem; why would everything be correct and perfect THIS TIME AROUND as opposed to all of the past failures. What happened? Earth is not duplicitous/complying anymore?

@AfterInfinity... leaves little excuse for his failing to foresee the consequences of his actions at the very beginning, when he still had a chance to make everything exactly the way he wanted it the first time.

The state of our world today is a consequence of human action and natural laws set in place. Don't blame God for starving Ethiopians when Spaniards are chucking tomatoes at each other. God foresaw it and let it play out. Earth life isn't a sims game where God is going to maintain everything perfectly.

Our flaws are his fault, ergo, so is his anger and disappointment in us. He knew exactly what would happen, from the first second to the very last, and still did it.

blaming God for our fault is like someone blaming a school for his bad grades, despite the fact he was goofing off instead of studying. Our fault is our fault. A lack of belief will have consequences, that the individual is responsible. Think of it as a natural law...gravity isn't going to spare a man who don't believe in it, when they jump off a tall building. So lack of belief in God combined with godless acts will also have consequences.

JiggyPotamus
I think there are ways out of this apparent contradiction. First, some of these instances could have been of God acting and speaking through an intermediary. Actually, that makes the most sense to me.

...and that is exactly what I am proposing. The angels were those intermediaries. In the 4 examples shown in OP, people were 'seeing' an angel and 'hearing' the words of God. Angels were just a visual representation of God's presence.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


Are you taking Yesod and Hod from the Tree of Life or where do you reference this from.

I know throughout the western religious world we have the ideas of God, Gods, angels and a whole wealth of other beings cherub ims and Seraphins etc etc but apart from man's imagination mostly through artistic impressions and writings, such as Enoch, where do we get these beings from? Where have they been seen on this earth before to qualify their actual existence?

More importantly for me is that in the very early stories God and his companions seem to have appeared to man, then we have the Ezekiel being whom I thought Ezekiel though was God and not specifically an angel. (It should be noted that this is probably allegorical simply because of the use of the Zodiac and the four fixed sign-heads that made up the chariot) Then after Moses I think we have absolutely no mention of God in a man's likeness upon this planet. He has been absent for over 2000 years at least, in truth probably considerably longer - which says to me that he is gone.

It must seem strange and utterly peculiar that a being, who is in charge of this world, has simply disappeared. Surely the job of being in charge of this world would mean watching over it. So what sense can be made of why he supposedly chose to appear to mankind when we (homo sapiens sapien, were probably at least 180,000 years in evolution and then simply disappear. We know nothing of his interest in the planet for its 4.x billions years of existence and his sojourn here seems just weird and strange.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Scorpion, why do you say that everything is our own fault? Don;t you think that with a God to whom moral behaviour is so important for man, that he would be making an appearance and keeping us on track instead of simply disappearing and leaving ujs to get on with it.

If man is to regard himself as 'Gods people' then surely God should be physically in the frame with us. Its simply as though there is no point in giving people enough rope to hang themselves with, because we all know they will - if we know it, then surely God knows it even before he handed out the rope? So what is the point of the whole exercise - there is none?

The actual reason is because we're in human bodies, and God is Spirit, so until we pass on, we can't meet in Spirit. We have to be "dead" in this world to be face to face with God. Its kind of a natural understanding.

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

The state of our world today is a consequence of human action and natural laws set in place. Don't blame God for starving Ethiopians when Spaniards are chucking tomatoes at each other. God foresaw it and let it play out. Earth life isn't a sims game where God is going to maintain everything perfectly.

Yeah. He foresaw it and let it play out. Imagine if we had done that with the Nazis. "Oh, they're committing genocide. Let's just sit around like idiots and wait for it to become our problem."

originally posted by: Shiloh7
reply to post by veteranhumanbeing

Shiloh7Are you taking Yesod and Hod from the Tree of Life or where do you reference this from.
I know throughout the western religious world we have the ideas of God, Gods, angels and a whole wealth of other beings cherub ims and Seraphins etc etc but apart from man's imagination mostly through artistic impressions and writings, such as Enoch, where do we get these beings from? Where have they been seen on this earth before to qualify their actual existence?

Yes I am taking this from the 'tree of life' hidden mystery knowledge. These beings are basically catagorized as the "Elohim" in the bible. They are the ones that interbred with the human; in order to "legally" affect their own changes to the system in place (as in through a loophole could exact whatever changes they wanted) you realize for their own gain or potencial manipulation of the direction the human was naturally supposed to progress to.

Shiloh7 More importantly for me is that in the very early stories God and his companions seem to have appeared to man, then we have the Ezekiel being whom I thought Ezekiel though was God and not specifically an angel. (It should be noted that this is probably allegorical simply because of the use of the Zodiac and the four fixed sign-heads that made up the chariot) Then after Moses I think we have absolutely no mention of God in a man's likeness upon this planet. He has been absent for over 2000 years at least, in truth probably considerably longer - which says to me that he is gone.

God and his companions? those were demi-gods (self inflated to such exhalted status because they had technology beyond anyones grasp at that moment of physical in history 400,000 BC when it all started with the Nibiru). Can anyone point to the dates of Ezekiels lifetime? Or Enoch? or Machiaventa Melchizedek (priest of Salem). Who comes first Moses or Melchizedek? God has never appeared on this planet because it is everywhere, its not a singular being ITS A FRACTAL. Who has been absent for 2000 years? Jesus? Why should he reappear, thats the last thing he would want to do (he was tricked into dogmatic sacrifice the first time around).

Shiloh7 Does it seem strange and utterly peculiar that a being, who is in charge of this world, has simply disappeared. Surely the job of being in charge of this world would mean watching over it. So what sense can be made of why he supposedly chose to appear to mankind when we (homo sapiens sapien, were probably at least 180,000 years in evolution and then simply disappear. We know nothing of his interest in the planet for its 4.x billions years of existence and his sojourn here seems just weird and strange.

God never disappeared; he never appeared AT ALL. How can one do this if made of no-thing (non-matter). Only its energetic force can be felt that created all else to express itself. I think the entire point was to see if the final product (the human) would be good shepherds to themselves and to everything/all else it created flora/fauna, including its own caretaker that is completely taken for granted: The Earth (big fat red F- for the human). Why do the various majors say the same thing "we are all related, were are brethren"; because we are God expressing itself.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
...and that is exactly what I am proposing. The angels were those intermediaries. In the 4 examples shown in OP, people were 'seeing' an angel and 'hearing' the words of God. Angels were just a visual representation of God's presence.

Intermediaries; like the Catholic Priest that speaks to god in our behalf? What devinational rights do they hold over the human? No, they were higher dimensional (meaning having no material body; the dimensions are stepped down 12 in all, each awareness becoming more conscious and acquiring material properties through the lowering of frequency process; that is slowing down their vibration) creatures that found a way to interact with the 3d dimension is all *lower their frequency* in order to interfere with and impact this world. Thats why the dimensions have specific boundryline frequencies IN ORDER FOR THIS NOT TO HAPPEN. You call them angels I call them "angles" of intent and as infiltraters of a system they were not designed to enter did it anyway; proclaiming themselves as Gods representatives. You are the visual and spiritual representation of Gods presence in the Third Dimension Physical. The higher dimensions also express god just vibrating at a higher frequency and are not heavy matter physical AT ALL.