evolution, where is the evidence???!!! I see none

Originally posted by saint4God
He told a federal judge Monday that in the book, he made a scientific argument that blood-clotting "is poorly explained by Darwinian processes but well explained by design."

you say intelligent design is so perfect and so great as god puts it in motion. well life is part of intelligent design, and humans can already manipulate and create life. by your standards that means we use 'intelligent design' just like god does, hence we are as good as god. if not better because one day we'll be able to make animals or humans with absolutly zero flaws...now that's intelligent design.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
you say intelligent design is so perfect and so great

I don't know enough abuot the theory to make that claim.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
as god puts it in motion.

That's ear-candy to me, but doesn't involve science in this discussion. If we discover God through science, then so be it, but as of yet we have not.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
well life is part of intelligent design, and humans can already manipulate and create life.

We've always been able to manipulate life. But what's that about creating life. Can you explain?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
by your standards that means we use 'intelligent design' just like god does, hence we are as good as god if not better because one day we'll be able to make animals or humans with absolutly zero flaws...now that's intelligent design.

Hehe, think highly of ourselves, do we? Tell me sir, will you die?

Originally posted by saint4God
I don't know enough abuot the theory to make that claim.

the claim for intelligent design such as the 'human eye' is that it's so complex and perfected that it had to be 'designed'... sorry if that confuses you, maybe you'd like me to explain it further?

That's ear-candy to me, but doesn't involve science in this discussion. If we discover God through science, then so be it, but as of yet we have not.

so why should intelligent design therefore be taught in a science lesson? if god hasn't even been found though science, then why teach about what god supposedly creates in science?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
We've always been able to manipulate life. But what's that about creating life. Can you explain?

do you want everything laid on a plate? we are able to clone. we can take a female egg and male sperm, and fertilize the egg...by christian standards on pro-life, by that definition 'a fertilized egg' is 'life'. we do manipulate life, but we also create it, we also destroy it...we're the gods if there are any.

Hehe, think highly of ourselves, do we?

Tell me sir, will you die?

will i die?

yes everyone dies, that's one of the processes of life. sorry again if that confuses you.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
the claim for intelligent design such as the 'human eye' is that it's so complex and perfected that it had to be 'designed'... sorry if that confuses you, maybe you'd like me to explain it further?

Makes sense to me. That describes "how" not "who".

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so why should intelligent design therefore be taught in a science lesson? if god hasn't even been found though science, then why teach about what god supposedly creates in science?

What does God have to do with Intelligent Design?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
do you want everything laid on a plate? we are able to clone. we can take a female egg and male sperm, and fertilize the egg...by christian standards on pro-life, by that definition 'a fertilized egg' is 'life'. we do manipulate life, but we also create it, we also destroy it...we're the gods if there are any.

Cloning is the same as asexual reproduction. Fertilization is the same as sexual reproduction. We're not "creating" anything, we're just fostering an environment for it to take place.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
will i die?

yes everyone dies, that's one of the processes of life. sorry again if that confuses you.

Not confusing at all, but I hardly see how a dying man can say he's as good as or better than the controller of life, death, eternity, and the universe.

[edit on 20-10-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Makes sense to me. That describes "how" not "who".

well the theory of intelligent design states that god, some god, gods or devine being put in motion this design.

What does God have to do with Intelligent Design?

because the theory states that some devine being, hence a god of some sort, created intelligent design.

Cloning is the same as asexual reproduction. Fertilization is the same as sexual reproduction. We're not "creating" anything, we're just fostering an environment for it to take place.

so having sex and making a baby in the process is merely 'fostering an environment for it to take place'? weird, i thought that would count as 'creating a life'. we create a life by fertilizing an egg, whether that's done in the backseat of a car, the bedroom, or laboratory...we're still 'creating life'.

Not confusing at all, but I hardly see how a dying man can say he's as good as or better than the controller of life, death, eternity, and the universe.

you make that assumption on the fact that there 'is' a controller of life, death, eternity and the universe.

there you go again with the putting down of humans. ''we're not good enough''. ''god is so much better'' and so on... why do you feel the need to make yourself feel even more insignificant by saying you're not good enough or better? and the fact that you have to make up devine beings to make yourself feel not equal to something? is that like a compulsion of yours...to make yourself feel less worthy in the eyes of a devine being?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
well the theory of intelligent design states that god, some god, gods or devine being put in motion this design.

because the theory states that some devine being, hence a god of some sort, created intelligent design.

Why God, gods or divine being? Can it not simply be someone more intelligent than us? Or does that automatically qualify them for god-status?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so having sex and making a baby in the process is merely 'fostering an environment for it to take place'?

Ya.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
weird, i thought that would count as 'creating a life'. we create a life by fertilizing an egg, whether that's done in the backseat of a car, the bedroom, or laboratory...we're still 'creating life'.

Just initiating a process that's already in place, that's all. We didn't "invent" sex, though I've talked to a few people who act like it... Anyhow, we haven't "created" anything, just catalyzed potential energy to kinetic energy.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
you make that assumption on the fact that there 'is' a controller of life, death, eternity and the universe.

It's not an assumption, I have my proof but that's not a scientific discussion.

there you go again with the putting down of humans. ''we're not good enough''. ''god is so much better'' and so on... why do you feel the need to make yourself feel even more insignificant by saying you're not good enough or better?

I don't have a need to make myself feel insignificant. In fact, my feeling of significance was greatly augmented after the God experience. Again, not scientific, but since you're always wanting to go back to it, why not:

I was an angry agnostic oblivionist (self-compiled term). I believed one of two possible scenarios existed:

1.) After we die, we cease to exist (oblivion). There was no afterlife, therefore this life is pointless.

or

2.) If something did exist beyond the human realm, it's "messing" with me by failing to prove itself.

Needless to say, one angry day I got my proof. I believe there are much more beneficial and easier ways then what I did and would not recommend this path to anyone. The right way to do it is to seek God first. Saves a lot of pain and trouble that way.

and the fact that you have to make up devine beings to make yourself feel not equal to something?

Again, not science here but I'll ride the tide of the side-tracked conversation. I'm equal to all my brothers and sisters. I am human. I could only hope all people feel the same way. Even though I'm not equal to God, I am special to Him. In that He has taken care of me in a lot of ways and I've received a lot from him that I absolutely do not deserve. As opposed to before, where I received nothing. Being dependent on me was very limiting.

is that like a compulsion of yours...to make yourself feel less worthy in the eyes of a devine being?

Nope. Do you feel less worthy because you have a boss or a teacher?

[edit on 20-10-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Why God, gods or divine being? Can it not simply be someone more intelligent than us? Or does that automatically qualify them for god-status?

so you're saying you believe in a god, but this isn't the same intelligent designer as him? there's another one...his apprentice perhaps?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so having sex and making a baby in the process is merely 'fostering an environment for it to take place'?

Ya.

maybe they could use that as an excuse to get an abortion? ''it's not a life, i'm merely getting rid of a few cells that i was fostering''.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Just initiating a process that's already in place, that's all. We didn't "invent" sex, though I've talked to a few people who act like it... Anyhow.

so for us to 'create' life, we had to have invented life? sure the building blocks are already there, but we're still ''making babies''.

It's not an assumption, I have my proof but that's not a scientific discussion.

yeah but you don't have 'proof'. if i see a ghost that doesn't automatically count as 'proof'. what you have are your own assumptions, qhich doesn't count as proof. that's like me saying ''the world is flat...i have 'my proof', but that's not a scientific discussion, but i'm still right'.

I don't have a need to make myself feel insignificant. In fact, my feeling of significance was greatly augmented after the God experience.

so why do you always bring up things like 'so why does a dying man think he's better than a creator who made the universe'. we're certainly not equal to god in your eyes, that i'm sure is thought of as blasphemy. therefore, you believe we are less equal to god, hence less significant. why do you feel that you need to be less significant?

Needless to say, one angry day I got my proof. I believe there are much more beneficial and easier ways then what I did and would not recommend this path to anyone. The right way to do it is to seek God first. Saves a lot of pain and trouble that way.

''the right way''...so what i'm doing is wrong? i'll make a note of that

Again, not science here but I'll ride the tide of the side-tracked conversation. I'm equal to all my brothers and sisters. I am human. I could only hope all people feel the same way. Even though I'm not equal to God, I am special to Him. In that He has taken care of me in a lot of ways and I've received a lot from him that I absolutely do not deserve. As opposed to before, where I received nothing. Being dependent on me was very limiting.

oh dear what a shame we side track from scientific conversation. the fact that you believe you're not equal to god, means you're making yourself less significant. again i'll ask 'why do you make yourself this little reality where you're not equal to something'?

Nope. Do you feel less worthy because you have a boss or a teacher?

no. but you do. you said yourself that you're less equal to god. i don't see myself less equal than a boss or teacher.

a big firm gives $10,000 a year to charity. a man gives $100 a year to charity. should this man feel less equal, and less significant because a company gives $10,000 and he can only give $100?

i'll ask for the third time...why do you make yourself 'less equal' to something? it doesn't even need to be about god. why would 'you' make yourself feel less equal to anything?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so you're saying you believe in a god, but this isn't the same intelligent designer as him? there's another one...his apprentice perhaps?

Science cannot explain who at this time, by Intelligent Design nor Evolution.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
maybe they could use that as an excuse to get an abortion? ''it's not a life, i'm merely getting rid of a few cells that i was fostering''.

Use whatever excuse you like, it doesn't negate the fact that life is being terminated.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so for us to 'create' life, we had to have invented life? sure the building blocks are already there, but we're still ''making babies''.

Might I recommend this movie then:


It'll show just how little of a role we actually play in the "baby making" process.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
yeah but you don't have 'proof'.

How do you know I don't have proof? Careful, treading on shakey ground in the "deny ignorance" catagory and the guidelines about being truthful.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
if i see a ghost that doesn't automatically count as 'proof'. what you have are your own assumptions,

Ya think? Maybe you should find out then.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
qhich doesn't count as proof. that's like me saying ''the world is flat...i have 'my proof', but that's not a scientific discussion, but i'm still right'.

The world is not flat. God exists. If either statement is wrong, then I should be banned from the site right now for lying.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
therefore, you believe we are less equal to god, hence less significant. why do you feel that you need to be less significant?

There is no need. We are not equal or more than God, but a lot more significant than we originally thought.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
"the right way''...so what i'm doing is wrong? i'll make a note of that

If you really care, I'll walk you through to how I got my answer.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
oh dear what a shame we side track from scientific conversation.

I don't mind. Seems like it's the moderators who care if we stay on topic.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
the fact that you believe you're not equal to god, means you're making yourself less significant. again i'll ask 'why do you make yourself this little reality where you're not equal to something'?

Well, I didn't make it. Also, I'm a whole lot more than I used to be. I went from someone who was unimportant, hated the fact there was no point to all this, to someone who is cared about individually and every moment in eternity counts because I now have a role in it.

no. but you do. you said yourself that you're less equal to god. i don't see myself less equal than a boss or teacher.

Then it's gonna be hard to learn anything, ain't it?

a big firm gives $10,000 a year to charity. a man gives $100 a year to charity. should this man feel less equal, and less significant because a company gives $10,000 and he can only give $100?

What percentage of their personal income did they give? That's more of an indicator to determine who is giving according to their heart and who is putting on a lazer-light show.

i'll ask for the third time...why do you make yourself 'less equal' to something? it doesn't even need to be about god. why would 'you' make yourself feel less equal to anything?

When I meet someone wiser than I am, I shut-up and listen even if I don't agree with them. It may mean I'll continue to disagree, but I'll never walk away not having learned something.


[edit on 20-10-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Science cannot explain who at this time, by Intelligent Design nor Evolution.

at this time...so you think science will find out 'who' sometime then? also suggesting that either ID or evolution are created by a designer. you say time and time again ''but how do you know it's god''...yet, here you're suggesting it's ''who'', meaning a being/person/god.

Use whatever excuse you like, it doesn't negate the fact that life is being terminated.

so now it's a life? before a person was just fostering a few cells in a certain environment, but now it's a life? make your mind up.

It'll show just how little of a role we actually play in the "baby making" process.

oright so just because it's small role we play, it again doesn't count as creating life? there i was thinking we were creating life by having babies, but it's merely fostering cells in a certain envionment untill they grow in to healthy living babies.

How do you know I don't have proof? Careful, treading on shakey ground in the "deny ignorance" catagory and the guidelines about being truthful.

yeah but it's your oppinion. it's not a proof or truth. in a sense it's 'proof' to you, but it's not proof in the grand scheme of things.

The world is not flat. God exists. If either statement is wrong, then I should be banned from the site right now for lying.

but it's your oppinion that god exists. it's fact that the world is not flat. unless when we see pictures from space they're actually optical illusions to make the earth look spherical. 'god exists' may not be a wrong statement, but it's not correct either.

There is no need. We are not equal or more than God, but a lot more significant than we originally thought.

here you are saying 'we are not equal or more than god'... when infact there is no 100% proof of this being actually existing. so you're saying you're less equal to something that might not even be there. your choice...

If you really care, I'll walk you through to how I got my answer.

standing in a mirror, if i recall. i don't need god to help me through life, i've got my own two legs to walk on. i've not had god in my life for 19 years...why would i need him now?

Well, I didn't make it. Also, I'm a whole lot more than I used to be. I went from someone who was unimportant, hated the fact there was no point to all this, to someone who is cared about individually and every moment in eternity counts because I now have a role in it.

so you dislike the fact of there being no god, hence you joined a religion? do you think monkeys or dolphins dislike the fact that there is 'no point to all this'...i'm sure they don't make up religions. maybe there isn't a point to life, you live and you die. that's what it's like for every living creature, so why are humans so different? the only reason we have any gods is because we created them.

Then it's gonna be hard to learn anything, ain't it?

you can still learn from a teacher without feeling less equal. i respect my college teachers, it doesn't mean i feel less equal than them.

When I meet someone wiser than I am, I shut-up and listen even if I don't agree with them. It may mean I'll continue to disagree, but I'll never walk away not having learned something.

but why does this mean you're less equal? i don't get this. you seem to think just because someone may be wiser, or more intelligent, or richer...that they are therefore better than you.

I shut-up and listen even if I don't agree with them.

All i hear is talking, no listening.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
at this time...so you think science will find out 'who' sometime then?

I don't know.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
also suggesting that either ID or evolution are created by a designer. you say time and time again ''but how do you know it's god''...yet, here you're suggesting it's ''who'', meaning a being/person/god.

Science isn't supposed to be about suggestions. It's supposed to be about facts, data, processes, testing, and functions.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so now it's a life? before a person was just fostering a few cells in a certain environment, but now it's a life? make your mind up.

It's life, but we ain't doin' the creatin'.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
oright so just because it's small role we play, it again doesn't count as creating life? there i was thinking we were creating life by having babies, but it's merely fostering cells in a certain envionment untill they grow in to healthy living babies.

I think that's an accurate assesment.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
yeah but it's your oppinion. it's not a proof or truth. in a sense it's 'proof' to you, but it's not proof in the grand scheme of things.

I'm not here to present proof to 'the grand scheme of things'. In fact, that's already been done once before. My job is to help others obtain their proof.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
but it's your oppinion that god exists. it's fact that the world is not flat. unless when we see pictures from space they're actually optical illusions to make the earth look spherical. 'god exists' may not be a wrong statement, but it's not correct either.

And you know this because....

Originally posted by shaunybaby
here you are saying 'we are not equal or more than god'... when infact there is no 100% proof of this being actually existing. so you're saying you're less equal to something that might not even be there. your choice...

You're throwing in the "might not" qualifier, not me.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
standing in a mirror, if i recall. i don't need god to help me through life, i've got my own two legs to walk on. i've not had god in my life for 19 years...why would i need him now?

How many more years have ya got? What's your plan after that?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so you dislike the fact of there being no god, hence you joined a religion?

Hehe, no. If it were that easy I'd open an express lane for people seeking God.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
do you think monkeys or dolphins dislike the fact that there is 'no point to all this'...

Oh good, so you do see there's an "ancestry" problem with evolution.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
'm sure they don't make up religions. maybe there isn't a point to life, you live and you die. that's what it's like for every living creature, so why are humans so different?

I asked myself that same question. Which is how I became an angry agnostic oblivionist in the first place.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
the only reason we have any gods is because we created them.

Used to think that too.

you can still learn from a teacher without feeling less equal. i respect my college teachers, it doesn't mean i feel less equal than them.

If they know more than you, then knowledgewise, you're lesser. Yes?

but why does this mean you're less equal? i don't get this. you seem to think just because someone may be wiser, or more intelligent, or richer...that they are therefore better than you.

If I played some one-on-one with Michael Jordan, he'd kick my a$$. What good is it to point my finger at him and say "I'm equal to you in basketball!" If I were smart about it, I'd ask him to show me how I could become better.

All i hear is talking, no listening.

I hear you. I rebuttal a lot, but I hear you. I wouldn't rebuttal if I didn't care what you had to say and am not understood myself. I'm sure you can find a few threads (this one included on the last page or so) where I said, "no point in me talking". That also shows I have interest in listening as well.

Originally posted by saint4God
It's life, but we ain't doin' the creatin'.

Is this a 'oh no we're not, oh yes we are' arguement?

I'm not here to present proof to 'the grand scheme of things'. In fact, that's already been done once before. My job is to help others obtain their proof.

Well so far you've told me that god isn't paper in the bible. Now even though he's supposed to be everywhere, people still need help to find him? Can people not find him on their own, or do they need to be pushed in to it?

And you know this because....

I didn't say 'I know'. I said, 'God exists' isn't a wrong statement, but it's also not a correct statement. It's not wrong because ultimately it can't be proven completely wrong, but it's not right because it can't be proved either. "because I say so''...isn't enough to prove god exists.

How many more years have ya got? What's your plan after that?

How many years...do you want a ballpark figure or do you want me to give you the exact date? My plan after I die, or my plan for the next lot of years ahead of me... probably live life to the fullest, enjoy life, have fun, see my friends, get married, have kids, have a good job etc. I don't see any point in my future, that i'm going to need god there too.

Hehe, no. If it were that easy I'd open an express lane for people seeking God.

Well people know that your religion offers eternal life in heaven, so long as you believe in jesus. So why doesn't 'everyone' believe? why would someone be a hindu, muslim, buddha, when you're saying that you're right, and that your god is real, because you've spoken to him? there's about 1/6 or 1/7 of the population who class themselves as christian...so 5/6 or 6/7 are going to hell according to your rules.

I asked myself that same question. Which is how I became an angry agnostic oblivionist in the first place.

There's no question there. The answer is there though. 'why are humans so different'...maybe it's because we're not different. We only made gods because it was our way to understand and explain everything around us. Some people just cannot live knowing that when they die there is nothing.

If they know more than you, then knowledgewise, you're lesser. Yes?

obviously my history teacher would have known far more than me about history, but I bet he couldn't run a studio recording session and be an engineer for the day, which I could do. So he knows more about history than me and i know more about recording than him, neither of us are better than one another, and neither of us a lesser than one another.

If I played some one-on-one with Michael Jordan, he'd kick my a$$. What good is it to point my finger at him and say "I'm equal to you in basketball!" If I were smart about it, I'd ask him to show me how I could become better.

you turn being less equal to god, in to being not as good as michael jordan in basketball? well obviously you're not going to be as good, you're skills in basketball aren't going to be equal to michael jordans. but as a person does that makes you less equal to him, or less important than him?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Is this a 'oh no we're not, oh yes we are' arguement?

I very well may be . "Looks like we've got a draw partner. I'll holster my pistol if you'll holster yours."

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Well so far you've told me that god isn't paper in the bible.

Correct.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Now even though he's supposed to be everywhere, people still need help to find him?

If I were in the mall blindfolded, even though I couldn't see it I'd still be in the mall.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Can people not find him on their own, or do they need to be pushed in to it?

That's a very good question. One that will have me considering the possibilities throughout the day. I think some people are sharp enough to find him on their own. I do know that I'm not one of those people. I had to set off a bomb and deal with the explosion before I got a clue.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I didn't say 'I know'. I said, 'God exists' isn't a wrong statement, but it's also not a correct statement. It's not wrong because ultimately it can't be proven completely wrong, but it's not right because it can't be proved either. "because I say so''...isn't enough to prove god exists.

I agree that "because I say so" isn't proof enough that God exists. In fact, I'd be a little worried for anyone who'd believe because "I said so". My hope is that they get their own proof. The reason why is someone else's word tends not to hold up in adversity. If you have personal proof, experience, then there's nothing that can deny it.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
How many years...do you want a ballpark figure or do you want me to give you the exact date? My plan after I die, or my plan for the next lot of years ahead of me... probably live life to the fullest, enjoy life, have fun, see my friends, get married, have kids, have a good job etc. I don't see any point in my future, that i'm going to need god there too.

Suppose something were to happen to negate that plan. For example, if you were to die today, then what?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Well people know that your religion offers eternal life in heaven, so long as you believe in jesus. So why doesn't 'everyone' believe?

It looks to me like they're unwilling to take the first step. We all have our different reasons as to why.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
why would someone be a hindu, muslim, buddha, when you're saying that you're right, and that your god is real, because you've spoken to him?

I've met no other gods, though they were invited to the party. I'm a skeptic, remember?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
there's about 1/6 or 1/7 of the population who class themselves as christian...so 5/6 or 6/7 are going to hell according to your rules.

The "rule" is in John 3:16. I cannot change that rule, add to it or take away from it. There are no sub-Christians or super-Christians. Also, I'm not the one who judges who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. That's God's job (Revelation 20:11). Though I can say it doesn't look like it's going to bode well for those who've outright rejected Him.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
There's no question there. The answer is there though. 'why are humans so different'...maybe it's because we're not different. We only made gods because it was our way to understand and explain everything around us. Some people just cannot live knowing that when they die there is nothing.

We're obviously different. The gods made to 'explain everything' fell away. Some people can live with knowing there's nothing after death, doesn't make a difference to the reality.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
obviously my history teacher would have known far more than me about history, but I bet he couldn't run a studio recording session and be an engineer for the day, which I could do. So he knows more about history than me and i know more about recording than him, neither of us are better than one another, and neither of us a lesser than one another.

All people are important. He's better at some things, you're better at others. Where's the big stretch in believe there's One who's better at everything? Isn't that a teacher you'd want to learn from?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
you turn being less equal to god, in to being not as good as michael jordan in basketball?

It's a small illustration of a greater point. Discussing theory and concept is tricky stuff when not physically able to show someone.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
well obviously you're not going to be as good, you're skills in basketball aren't going to be equal to michael jordans. but as a person does that makes you less equal to him, or less important than him?

What's the fixation with being the greatest creature in the universe? Looking at your avatar, I'm surprised that you're against the idea.

Originally posted by saint4God
I think some people are sharp enough to find him on their own.

I think there is likely to be a large population of atheists and Christians alike who resent this statement.

Originally posted by saint4God
I agree that "because I say so" isn't proof enough that God exists. In fact, I'd be a little worried for anyone who'd believe because "I said so".

Then, basically, you are worried about all Christians. Whether it comes from parents, the church, or the pages of the Bible, it is ALL "because I say so" material. You are unique in having experienced whatever it is that you experienced that compelled you to believe in the Judeo-Christian God.

Originally posted by saint4God
My hope is that they get their own proof.

People can only seek for so long, being continually denied proof, until they give up and follow more practical, logical, and proven schools of science, psychology, and sociology.

On a related note, I don't think that atheists by and large are rejecting some kind of obvious plea for worship from a creator-God. I would think that atheists would consider an obvious plea for worship to be more manifest than an old book, written by men who claimed to have been ghostwriting for the Judeo-Christian creator-God.

Originally posted by saint4God
The reason why is someone else's word tends not to hold up in adversity.

Yes, so we can imagine how bothersome it could be to atheists to be berated or attacked by Christians for not believing in their religion when they have absolutely no real reason to believe.

Originally posted by saint4God
Suppose something were to happen to negate that plan. For example, if you were to die today, then what?

What do you mean? My consciousness would fade, never to return, because I would be no more. My family would probably bury me, I guess. My legions of admirers would mourn my passing. No sweat off my back!

Originally posted by saint4God
It looks to me like they're unwilling to take the first step.

You would be surprised at the sheer number of ex-Christians that exist now and in history. You would also be surprised at the number of atheists who HAVE "taken the first step." I would imagine that it would be a large fraction of them - probably over half. Atheists by and large are not "stubborn" or "unwilling" people, in my estimation. I think that, quite to the contrary, they are completely open to rational ideas.

Originally posted by saint4God
Also, I'm not the one who judges who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. That's God's job (Revelation 20:11). Though I can say it doesn't look like it's going to bode well for those who've outright rejected Him.

To reject something, it has to be manifest first. For example, my company can reject a quote for a service, a girlfriend could reject a marriage proposal, an ATM machine can reject an incorrect pin number, the body can reject food it is allergic to, etc.

The majority of the non-Christian world has not "rejected" the Judeo-Christian God as such. They have never been presented with a manifest God in the first place. That is not "their" fault. Is not the burden of proof on the prosecution in this universe?

Originally posted by saint4God
Some people can live with knowing there's nothing after death, doesn't make a difference to the reality.

Many people consider notions associated with the phrase "after death" to be ignorant because they understand the nature of death.

Originally posted by saint4God
Isn't that a teacher you'd want to learn from?

I think it's fair to say that most people don't have an emotional predisposition against believing in a God, and people would be happy to have one come down from the sky and shake hands and kiss babies. I don't think that would be a problem for most people, without regard to their religious complexion.

Zip

Originally posted by Zipdot

Originally posted by saint4God
I think some people are sharp enough to find him on their own.

I think there is likely to be a large population of atheists and Christians alike who resent this statement.

I don't understand why. God doesn't "need" us to do His work. If He reaches out to someone without mankind's help, who am I to say "no you can't do that! You need me."?

Originally posted by Zipdot
Then, basically, you are worried about all Christians. Whether it comes from parents, the church, or the pages of the Bible, it is ALL "because I say so" material. You are unique in having experienced whatever it is that you experienced that compelled you to believe in the Judeo-Christian God.

If one doesn't truly have faith in their heart and the desire to have a relationship with him, whereas they only go by mere "head knowledge" then I think there's a good possibility it will fail them when they get into trouble. I think this is a large portion of the "ex-Christian" phenomena commonly observed. I don't know for certain, but that's just my assessment.

Originally posted by Zipdot
People can only seek for so long, being continually denied proof, until they give up and follow more practical, logical, and proven schools of science, psychology, and sociology.

I see, so they "settle for less". How long does someone need to search for God? As long as it takes. We have 70 plus or minus years to look, though I've seen it done under an hour. I'm sure for some less than that depending on how close they are to death's edge or thirst to get the answer.

Originally posted by Zipdot
On a related note, I don't think that atheists by and large are rejecting some kind of obvious plea for worship from a creator-God. I would think that atheists would consider an obvious plea for worship to be more manifest than an old book, written by men who claimed to have been ghostwriting for the Judeo-Christian creator-God.

I don't know the motivations of an athiest, nor think a blanket statment like that would cover it.

Originally posted by Zipdot
Yes, so we can imagine how bothersome it could be to atheists to be berated or attacked by Christians for not believing in their religion when they have absolutely no real reason to believe.

Hopefully you've seen me do no such thing. The most I can say is "I feel your pain" as I'm getting similar treament on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Originally posted by Zipdot
What do you mean? My consciousness would fade, never to return, because I would be no more. My family would probably bury me, I guess.

Aight.

Originally posted by Zipdot
My legions of admirers would mourn my passing.

Hehe.

Originally posted by Zipdot
No sweat off my back!

Sorry to hear.

Originally posted by Zipdot
You would be surprised at the sheer number of ex-Christians that exist now and in history. You would also be surprised at the number of atheists who HAVE "taken the first step." I would imagine that it would be a large fraction of them - probably over half. Atheists by and large are not "stubborn" or "unwilling" people, in my estimation. I think that, quite to the contrary, they are completely open to rational ideas.

See above commentary of the "ex-Christian" phenomena. I'm not saying you can't lose faith/proof, my question is how much faith and desire to do things His way did you have in the first place to lose it by stuff that happens to us in this world?

Originally posted by Zipdot
To reject something, it has to be manifest first. For example, my company can reject a quote for a service, a girlfriend could reject a marriage proposal, an ATM machine can reject an incorrect pin number, the body can reject food it is allergic to, etc.

I hope your right. Let me ask you a question. Do you accept God, with Jesus Christ as saviour?

Originally posted by Zipdot
The majority of the non-Christian world has not "rejected" the Judeo-Christian God as such. They have never been presented with a manifest God in the first place. That is not "their" fault. Is not the burden of proof on the prosecution in this universe?

If you like, I can walk you through how I came to know I have the gift of eternal life. At the end of that walk-through is the option to accept or reject the Christian God in a very personal way.

Originally posted by saint4God
Many people consider notions associated with the phrase "after death" to be ignorant because they understand the nature of death.

Then it is important to educate what "after death" means.

Originally posted by Zipdot
I think it's fair to say that most people don't have an emotional predisposition against believing in a God, and people would be happy to have one come down from the sky and shake hands and kiss babies. I don't think that would be a problem for most people, without regard to their religious complexion.

Zip

I'm sure they would accept that just fine, it's when they understand that God is also just, in that he punishes for sin that people have a problem. We get into a "that's so unfair!" mindset that it makes us cling to it, and with it we go down.


[edit on 21-10-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
If I were in the mall blindfolded, even though I couldn't see it I'd still be in the mall.

so i'm essentially the blindfolded person?

If you have personal proof, experience, then there's nothing that can deny it.

which is why we have people that believe in aliens, ghosts, mediums, religions and so on.

Suppose something were to happen to negate that plan. For example, if you were to die today, then what?

Not sure what you mean by 'then what'... I'll be dead so i'll not actually be aware that i'm dead, hence i won't know i'm dead, thus it doesn't matter that i'm dead. I'm not sure what you're trying to point out to me. Sure i could die tomorrow, but i'm not worried about it...although you seem to be somewhat.

It looks to me like they're unwilling to take the first step. We all have our different reasons as to why.

do you not think that it's a coincidence that if you grow up in a dominant muslim country, with a muslim family, that you're more likely to become muslim and not a jehova's witness? it's not by chance that 70% of people in the UK are classed as christian, because that religion is in the history of our country. the same as most people living in india are muslim, because that can be traced in their country through their history.

We're obviously different. The gods made to 'explain everything' fell away. Some people can live with knowing there's nothing after death, doesn't make a difference to the reality.

you're suggesting the reality is that there is life after death. like i said, some people just can't live knowing that there is nothing after death. if there were no heaven or eternal life after death, then christianity and the bible would just be a way to live your life, no more than living your life by dr.atkins' book.

All people are important. He's better at some things, you're better at others. Where's the big stretch in believe there's One who's better at everything? Isn't that a teacher you'd want to learn from?

but god isn't better at everything than me. sure you say he created the universe, which i couldn't do. however, i can play guitar, piano, sing etc...i've not witnessed god doing these. so as you say, ''he's better at some things, i'm better at others'. so that doesn't make us less equal to god.

What's the fixation with being the greatest creature in the universe? Looking at your avatar, I'm surprised that you're against the idea.

my avatar...i just thought looked awesome. plus i wanted a black background with a plain white outline of something, that was the first thing that i found.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Zipdot
People can only seek for so long, being continually denied proof, until they give up and follow more practical, logical, and proven schools of science, psychology, and sociology.

I see, so they "settle for less".

In your estimation. To some atheists, I imagine it is kind of like giving up their childish fantasies and growing up to become adults.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Zipdot
On a related note, I don't think that atheists by and large are rejecting some kind of obvious plea for worship from a creator-God. I would think that atheists would consider an obvious plea for worship to be more manifest than an old book, written by men who claimed to have been ghostwriting for the Judeo-Christian creator-God.

I don't know the motivations of an athiest, nor think a blanket statment like that would cover it.

In terms of "rejection" of a God, I think that statement about covers it. Atheists don't tend to feel as though they are "rejecting God" because they either disbelieve in a God or don't believe in a God. "Rejecting God" would be more like cursing at God after your entire family died in a fire, or a similar kind of arrangement wherein a person still believed in God but... yaknow... Rejected Him.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Zipdot
Yes, so we can imagine how bothersome it could be to atheists to be berated or attacked by Christians for not believing in their religion when they have absolutely no real reason to believe.

Hopefully you've seen me do no such thing.

Of course not, you're a pleasure to speak with.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Zipdot
You would be surprised at the sheer number of ex-Christians that exist now and in history. You would also be surprised at the number of atheists who HAVE "taken the first step." I would imagine that it would be a large fraction of them - probably over half. Atheists by and large are not "stubborn" or "unwilling" people, in my estimation. I think that, quite to the contrary, they are completely open to rational ideas.

See above commentary of the "ex-Christian" phenomena. I'm not saying you can't lose faith/proof, my question is how much faith and desire to do things His way did you have in the first place to lose it by stuff that happens to us in this world?

And, of course, that is quite a common question of ex-Christians: "how Christian were you to begin with?"

I could speak volumes about this single confrontational and assumptive question, but in short, let's just say that most ex-Christians had real, true faith in their prior religious career, in my experience.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Zipdot
Many people consider notions associated with the phrase "after death" to be ignorant because they understand the nature of death.

Then it is important to educate what "after death" means.

I think that the idea of an "afterdeath" scenario (judgement, heaven, hell, or whatever) takes more faith to believe in than any other aspect of Judeo-Christian beliefs. It is a singularly important stumbling block for many people who are otherwise spiritual and accepting of metaphysical ideas. It's a hard sell.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Zipdot
I think it's fair to say that most people don't have an emotional predisposition against believing in a God, and people would be happy to have one come down from the sky and shake hands and kiss babies. I don't think that would be a problem for most people, without regard to their religious complexion.

Zip

I'm sure they would accept that just fine, it's when they understand that God is also just, in that he punishes for sin that people have a problem. We get into a "that's so unfair!" mindset that it makes us cling to it, and with it we go down.

I don't think submission to God's will and command would be too much of a problem for anybody if he introduced himself to the people in a manifest way. I think that the people are currently being asked to have too much faith. THAT's what's unfair. The unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is unfair (Mark 3:22-30, Matt 12:31-32).

I've considered telling this story for a while now, but I've always decided against it. Here goes - I'll tell it now, but I'm just headed out the door at the moment, so it is going to be rushed sounding. I used to have a girlfriend who was a hardcore believer in the Holy Spirit. She claimed to (this is embarrassing) be able to "speak in tongues" whenever she was feverously taken by the spirit or whatever. I didn't understand that at all, and it sounded stupid to me.

I should interrupt this story right here and say that she was a generally well adjusted girl, extremely beautiful from head to toe, of average intelligence, decent, and normal. She was about 20 or 21 years old at this time. Her father was a minister and later the principal of her Christian private school when she was younger. He was kind of a selfish deadbeat - he spent all of his paychecks on himself rather than his family. That last fact is irrelevant to the story, though.

Anyway, one day I enticed her to speak in tongues for me and she sounded like a GD idiot. I told her so. BAM! I can never be let into heaven now (Mark 3:22-30, Matt 12:31-32). That sin is greater than genocide, etc. I'm convinced that every Christian ever is guilty of this sin because of the nature of thought processes - for example, if a student were to learn in Sunday school, "speaking or thinking negatively about the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin and you must NEVER DO IT," then the logical progression for the brain is to test the information as it is processed - for instance, a student might think to himself, "okay, don't think bad thoughts about the Holy Spirit. Bad thoughts. Holy Spirit. What exactly is the Holy Spirit? Is that a bad thought, to ask that question? I don't know if I want to believe in such a thing, that I cannot even question without going to hell. OH NO, I'VE DONE IT!" Etc.

Anyway, I've gotta go, sorry that story was rushed.

Zip

[edit on 10/21/2005 by Zipdot]

Originally posted by shaunybaby

Originally posted by saint4God
If I were in the mall blindfolded, even though I couldn't see it I'd still be in the mall.

so i'm essentially the blindfolded person?

No, I'm saying God is essentially the mall . I shouldn't do that, I'm sorry. Please relax shauny, we don't have to be serious all the time do we? Alright, alright, *puts serious face back on* it's an analogy. The "blindfold" represents all the things that are in our way between us and god. We all get "blindfolded" by the stuff that goes on in our lives.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
which is why we have people that believe in aliens, ghosts, mediums, religions and so on.

...and because you've never experienced these things they do not exist?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Not sure what you mean by 'then what'... I'll be dead so i'll not actually be aware that i'm dead, hence i won't know i'm dead, thus it doesn't matter that i'm dead. I'm not sure what you're trying to point out to me. Sure i could die tomorrow, but i'm not worried about it...although you seem to be somewhat.

You caught me. I am worried about you dying tomorrow.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
do you not think that it's a coincidence that if you grow up in a dominant muslim country, with a muslim family, that you're more likely to become muslim and not a jehova's witness? it's not by chance that 70% of people in the UK are classed as christian, because that religion is in the history of our country. the same as most people living in india are muslim, because that can be traced in their country through their history.

I thought they were Hindi. *shrugs* I get your point though I'm not going to poll the religions of the world and select the one I like best. I don't get to say what is real and what is not, but I did got to find out and choose to accept it or not.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
you're suggesting the reality is that there is life after death.

Yeah. And to clear any ambiguity, I'll state it as well. There is life after death.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
like i said, some people just can't live knowing that there is nothing after death. if there were no heaven or eternal life after death, then christianity and the bible would just be a way to live your life, no more than living your life by dr.atkins' book.

I agree.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
but god isn't better at everything than me.

Yes He is .

Originally posted by shaunybaby
sure you say he created the universe, which i couldn't do. however, i can play guitar, piano, sing etc...i've not witnessed god doing these.

Can't wait until I do. It's gotta rock hizzouse. "Rock, rock on!" (

Originally posted by saint4God
No, I'm saying God is essentially the mall

yeah i know god was the mall. just seemed like you were saying just because you can't see him, don't believe in him etc, that it doesn't mean he's not still there, or something along those lines.

...and because you've never experienced these things they do not exist?

they 'exist' like god 'exists'. essentially the concept of god is created by man, the same as the concept of aliens, ghosts, talking to dead spirits etc... why we created them? who knows.

You caught me. I am worried about you dying tomorrow.

same as my christian friend. whenever we argue about anything i just say, ''atleast you won't have to put up with me when i'm dead''.

I thought they were Hindi. *shrugs* I get your point though I'm not going to poll the religions of the world and select the one I like best. I don't get to say what is real and what is not, but I did got to find out and choose to accept it or not.

you didn't really answer my question though. people who live in iraq for example are going to grow up with islamic beliefs. they are very unlikely to become christians at any point in their life. my point was that your religion depends a whole lot on where you were born and live your life. so the question of 'which religion is right' is neither here nor there, since most people just grow up with a religion as part of their culture.

Yeah. And to clear any ambiguity, I'll state it as well. There is life after death.

that's what you think, believe etc. not what you 'know'. The two world wars took place in the 1900s. that's what i know. that's the difference between your statement and mine.

Yes He is

can god pick up a tennis racket and play a set of tennis? no, didn't think so. thus i am better at tennis than god. yeah he might be able to make a universe, but he can't play tennis

God isn't Michael Jordan, He isn't good at one thing. He's the best at everything...except sinning, we wear the title-crown for that one.

so we're all better sinners than god. that's tennis and sinning so far.

But but, so you're saying you don't believe in aliens nor the possibility of greater being in the universe?

any species of aliens advanced enough to find their way to our solar system probably would have found this planet sometime in the last million or billion years, yet there's not a whole lotta evidence to suggest they did. people saying they've been abducted, roswell and crop circles are not good evidence to suggest aliens are around. the universe being as vast as it is, infinite...which is prety big, then the chance of there being intelligent alien lifeforms is obviously possible. the fact that the universe is infinite means there is that possibility of intelligent alien lifeforms.

as for there being a greater power such as a god that created the universe. it all seems to much like a fairytale. it would be nice to have it so simple, you're born, you believe and accept christ as your saviour, you die and go to heaven and live for eternity. shame it couldn't be further from reality though.

Originally posted by Zipdot
In your estimation. To some atheists, I imagine it is kind of like giving up their childish fantasies and growing up to become adults.

Sounds like a rationalization. I like the way shauny said it, no offense.

Originally posted by Zipdot
In terms of "rejection" of a God, I think that statement about covers it. Atheists don't tend to feel as though they are "rejecting God" because they either disbelieve in a God or don't believe in a God. "Rejecting God" would be more like cursing at God after your entire family died in a fire, or a similar kind of arrangement wherein a person still believed in God but... yaknow... Rejected Him.

Let me ask you if I may, Zipdot. Do you accept God, with Jesus Christ being His son and our saviour?

Originally posted by Zipdot
Of course not, you're a pleasure to speak with.

Wow! Thank you! I am concerned about being a pain. I like the way you challenge me to think and enjoy talking with you as well.

Originally posted by Zipdot
And, of course, that is quite a common question of ex-Christians: "how Christian were you to begin with?"

Funny you should mention this. I'm having a...er....discussion(?) with some folks at the church I attend about that. They're quick to slap that question where I give more serious pause. Here's my logic, and I hope you find it useful too since it sounds like you don't buy into the knee-jerk response either. Hebrews (I love this book! So cryptically cool and somewhat mysterious like a mini-Revelation or Ezekiel) 6 talks about falling away. My question is this: If you're not a Christian to begin with, how can you fall away? So, I'll agree that the "they were never Christian to begin with" answer seems half-cocked when you consider Hebrews 6. *reads the chapter again* Ah crap! This is...not good news. Sorry, it's unrelated to my point so I'll let it go for now. It's instruction put there for me anyway so I won't bore you with details. It's just not good news.

Originally posted by Zipdot
I could speak volumes about this single confrontational and assumptive question, but in short, let's just say that most ex-Christians had real, true faith in their prior religious career, in my experience.

That's the bad news I was talking about. Hm, yeah, I hope that ex-Christians didn't get the Holy Spirit experience. If not, then there's still hope. What am I talking about? There's always hope. That and I'll never know someone else's heart. Ever wonder what goes on inside my head? There's a glance.

Originally posted by Zipdot
I think that the idea of an "afterdeath" scenario (judgement, heaven, hell, or whatever) takes more faith to believe in than any other aspect of Judeo-Christian beliefs. It is a singularly important stumbling block for many people who are otherwise spiritual and accepting of metaphysical ideas. It's a hard sell.

You're on to something Zip. I don't know what it is yet, but I'll try to let you know when I find out. Need more time to think.

Originally posted by Zipdot
I don't think submission to God's will and command would be too much of a problem for anybody if he introduced himself to the people in a manifest way.

He did before and they nailed him to the wall for it. Well, a cross anyway .

Originally posted by Zipdot
I think that the people are currently being asked to have too much faith. THAT's what's unfair. The unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is unfair (Mark 3:22-30, Matt 12:31-32).

WHAT?! Biblical Scripture!? Feels like I haven't eaten for days. Hold on. *reads* That's freekin' deep dude, why have you been holding out on me all this time? An unforgivable sin, hm. How 'bout that. Learn something new everyday. Of course suicide is an unforgivable sin too since you are murdering and you can't repent 'cause you're dead. I'm stunned. An interesting thing to ponder though, since Jesus says "with man this is impossible but with God, nothing is impossible" and "whoever believes in me will not perish but have eternal life". So then... er... hm.

Originally posted by Zipdot
Anyway, one day I enticed her to speak in tongues for me and she sounded like a GD idiot. I told her so. BAM! I can never be let into heaven now (Mark 3:22-30, Matt 12:31-32). That sin is greater than genocide, etc.

Jesus said that whoever is angry in his heart has already murdered his brother, and (regarding married folk) whoever looks upon another lustfully has already commited adultry in their heart. Even the thought is sin. Who then is without sin for "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

So what's the answer? AHA! I found it! It's in 3 words. The 3 words themselves don't sound special, but if we pay attention closely we realize so much more is said here than meets the eye. You ready for this?

"It is finished"

Wait wait, let me explain. *tosses books trying to find it* Spamandham if you ever had a case for me being "crazy", to see me now would support it. Anyhow, here it is! "TETELESTAI". *exhales*.

What's Tetelestai? It is a financial term that not only means "it is finished" but also "the debt is paid in full". TRUMP CARD! Ace of spades. Check this out. When Jesus died on the cross he paid for all the sin-debt that we accumulate no matter how bad 'cause he said (John 3:16) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life"!

Booyah! Yeah, your sin wasn't forgiven, but it will be paid for by the death of Jesus if you believe in him. Come judgement day though it's enough to throw someone in the slammer if that speeding ticket isn't paid for.

Originally posted by Zipdot
I'm convinced that every Christian ever is guilty of this sin because of the nature of thought processes - for example, if a student were to learn in Sunday school, "speaking or thinking negatively about the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin and you must NEVER DO IT," then the logical progression for the brain is to test the information as it is processed - for instance, a student might think to himself, "okay, don't think bad thoughts about the Holy Spirit. Bad thoughts. Holy Spirit. What exactly is the Holy Spirit? Is that a bad thought, to ask that question? I don't know if I want to believe in such a thing, that I cannot even question without going to hell. OH NO, I'VE DONE IT!" Etc.

Anyway, I've gotta go, sorry that story was rushed.

Zip

You know I think you're on it . There's only one way to get to heaven without Christ. Here it is "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect". That'd leave me out. Thank God for plan B.

This post has been awesome. I owe many thanks to you.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
just seemed like you were saying just because you can't see him, don't believe in him etc, that it doesn't mean he's not still there, or something along those lines.

BINGO!

Originally posted by shaunybaby
they 'exist' like god 'exists'. essentially the concept of god is created by man, the same as the concept of aliens, ghosts, talking to dead spirits etc... why we created them? who knows.

I'd like to ask a serious question and please don't take offence. I ask because I honestly don't know. Why are you on ATS shauny? Why specifically are you in Conspiracies in Religion?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
same as my christian friend. whenever we argue about anything i just say, ''atleast you won't have to put up with me when i'm dead''.

Why do I suddenly feel ill? If a man pointed a gun at us and said "one you you must die", expect me to volunteer.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
you didn't really answer my question though. people who live in iraq for example are going to grow up with islamic beliefs. they are very unlikely to become christians at any point in their life. my point was that your religion depends a whole lot on where you were born and live your life. so the question of 'which religion is right' is neither here nor there, since most people just grow up with a religion as part of their culture.

Perhaps I don't understand the question. I wasn't born in any of those places, I didn't experience any of those gods (though all were invited). I know what I know and what I know told me what I didn't know. Also, why are there Christians in India, China, Iraq, Israel, if it's all culturally influenced?

Originally posted by shaunybaby

Yeah. And to clear any ambiguity, I'll state it as well. There is life after death.

that's what you think, believe etc. not what you 'know'. The two world wars took place in the 1900s. that's what i know. that's the difference between your statement and mine.

Did you SEE the two world wars?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
can god pick up a tennis racket and play a set of tennis? no, didn't think so.

And you know this because....

Originally posted by shaunybaby
thus i am better at tennis than god. yeah he might be able to make a universe, but he can't play tennis

I can't wait to see the match if ever He decides to play you and let me watch.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so we're all better sinners than god.

Thought you'd go for that one . The word "better" is pretty subjective here since we're not really "good" at it by doing it. So you could say we're lousy sinners and it's just as accurate. What is Sin? Doing that which is not pleasing to God. Can God displease himself? That's some tough beef-jerky to chew on for a while, ain't it?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
that's tennis and sinning so far.

Still doubting the tennis part.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
any species of aliens advanced enough to find their way to our solar system probably would have found this planet sometime in the last million or billion years, yet there's not a whole lotta evidence to suggest they did. people saying they've been abducted, roswell and crop circles are not good evidence to suggest aliens are around. the universe being as vast as it is, infinite...which is prety big, then the chance of there being intelligent alien lifeforms is obviously possible. the fact that the universe is infinite means there is that possibility of intelligent alien lifeforms.

as for there being a greater power such as a god that created the universe. it all seems to much like a fairytale.

I don't get why aliens are probable and God is impossible

Originally posted by shaunybaby
it would be nice to have it so simple, you're born, you believe and accept christ as your saviour, you die and go to heaven and live for eternity.

I agree. That would be nice. Too bad our selfish decision making skeels fecked it all up for us.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
shame it couldn't be further from reality though.

Well, it's yours for the taking 'cause He's willing to give it. Please don't ever think it's not an option. If it takes an 11th hour frame of mind to go with it, then so be it, as long as it's not when the time is up.

Hey all, we really should put down the ATS board and enjoy our weekend. What do you say? Love you all, but we gotta get in touch with the rest of the world out there huh? I'll start and see you all Monday or Tueday.

[edit on 21-10-2005 by saint4God]