Ukraine agrees to host NATO war games

reply to post by TritonTaranis

And then after having voted 123% in favour

Why are you still pushing that garbage? You know very well that was just some blogger who randomly added 200,000 to the total. He even admitted the mistake afterwards. Why don't you try just sticking to the facts.

victor7
reply to post by dlbott

 

Write all this or that you want.........but...........if Ukraine joins the NATO

then

All the Hell will break Loose !!

So let's hope Uks remain neutral territory for the good of all !!

Ukraine has no proposal for joining NATO, and never has had.

If it did it would be telegraphed years ahead.

victor7
reply to post by dlbott

 

Write all this or that you want.........but...........if Ukraine joins the NATO

then

All the Hell will break Loose !!

So let's hope Uks remain neutral territory for the good of all !!

Why because they're Russia's slaves? and have been looked down upon by Russians for Century's and are not in control of there destiny? Not sure if you been watching but they don't like you no more



What's Russia going to do get its arse kicked invading Ukraine under NATO protection and then threaten to start a nuclear Armageddon because the Ukrainians are now free?

Russia couldn't bare watching as the Ukrainians living happy as part of the EU but Russia isn't going to kill the earth out of extreme jealousy

MALBOSIA
And pump prices will remain the same no doubt. This just sheds more light on how they can use reserves to extort other nations but when it comes to easing the suffering at the pumps, it is no dice.

Thank you for pointing out how truly twisted a western government and the corporations that purchased them really are.

edit on 1-4-2014 by MALBOSIA because: (no reason given)

Interesting... You take exception to something the West might do while at the same time ignoring the fact Russia just jacked up gas prices going into Ukraine and is threatening Europe, again, to cut their supply.

Care to share with us why you think there is a difference.

reply to post by TritonTaranis


The main muscle behind NATO is the US

but

the most Horrible Beating from Russia will be borne by Western European Capitals

hence

very likely countries like Germany, France, S. Europe, C. Europe will drop out of NATO........to avoid the Russian 'multiple sledgehammer' blows.

This all even before the US arrives in force...........only 10K US troops in Europe today vrs 400K in late 1980s.

WW3 nearly started on the Pristina Airport where Russian VDV had taken over the airport. UK Gen. Jackson openly told Supreme NATO Commander Gen. Clark (US)............."I am not going to start WW3 for you, hence I reject your orders to dislodge Russians from the airport".

3 coins out of 4 say, Europe will jump the ship very fast.

reply to post by Flatcoat


So the fact the Tartar population and much of the threatened Ukrainian speaking Crimean's which total 37% of the population of Crimea boycotted, we have polling/voting victories of that recently and only seen in North Korea and Cuba where there is only one candidate or know rigging?

Lol

Why are you still banging the it was legit drum I should ask, it's absolutely obvious it was rigged and as soon as Russia's troop are pulled of the streets you will see them come out the wood works

victor7
The dude above is playing the disinformation games that CIA and US Govt. does to create civil wars in other countries, SHAMEFUL !!

Not at all and I will point out, again, that you attack the poster instead of the facts.

If you actually took the time to read and understand the article you might have been able to contribute to this thread. Go back and read it then come back and join us.

Tell ya what, I will help you out.

So what exactly would releasing oil from there do? Let's say U.S. production and imports from Canada and Mexico were to hold place. The U.S. would need to release about 950,000 barrels per day to meet all of the United States' current demand. Based on the SPR's 727 million barrels in storage, we could do this for well over two years and drive down global prices significantly. Surprisingly, though, we don't even need to go to that extreme. According to economist Phillip Verleger in a recent Quartz article, if the U.S. were to release only 500,000 barrels per day from the SPR, it would lead to a $10 drop in oil prices and would cost Russia $40 billion in sales. At this pace, we could maintain this pace for more than four years and could potentially cause Russia's GDP to drop by 4%.

That is from the article and was from my last post. Had you understood it you would have noticed the part in bold above.

So please explain why you are attacking me when the information I posted is the same as what you posted? How is what I posted disinformation? I did not write the article and even provided a link to the company in question.

The other are you need to read up on is OPEC, which Saudi Arabia is a member and Russia is NOT. Saudi would not feel the sting but Russia would, which was the point of the article.

At this pace, we could maintain this pace for more than four years and could potentially cause Russia's GDP to drop by 4%.

Even if such actions lead to Russian GDP coming down by 1%, then Russia can sponsor "special operations' forces from Syria, Iran, NK to blow up the OPEC's main or major refineries. By the time it takes to figure out what happened, Russians will be laughing all the way to the bank. It will be Western economies in recession due to higher oil prices !!!


ps: candily apologies for reading that article too fast, take the statements back. peace !!

victor7
reply to post by TritonTaranis

 

The main muscle behind NATO is the US

but

the most Horrible Beating from Russia will be borne by Western European Capitals

hence

very likely countries like Germany, France, S. Europe, C. Europe will drop out of NATO........to avoid the Russian 'multiple sledgehammer' blows.

This all even before the US arrives in force...........only 10K US troops in Europe today vrs 400K in late 1980s.

WW3 nearly started on the Pristina Airport where Russian VDV had taken over the airport. UK Gen. Jackson openly told Supreme NATO Commander Gen. Clark (US)............."I am not going to start WW3 for you, hence I reject your orders to dislodge Russians from the airport".

3 coins out of 4 say, Europe will jump the ship very fast.

LMAO

Nonsense talking and utterly Delusional is you

The EU and NATO have spoken, if you chose to ignore its leaders and what they have public ally announced then that's not my problem, maybe you're in denial I guess

Alternatives are already being discussed and sourced but it's not going to happen over night so please have patients, sanctions are already in place and more and more are coming for the forceable future in order to cripple Russia's economy first and for most, the wheel are very very much in motion so please sit back, and enjoy the ride I'm sure you'll be feeling the sledge hammer blows yourself

victor7
reply to post by TritonTaranis

 

The main muscle behind NATO is the US

but

the most Horrible Beating from Russia will be borne by Western European Capitals

hence

very likely countries like Germany, France, S. Europe, C. Europe will drop out of NATO........to avoid the Russian 'multiple sledgehammer' blows.

This all even before the US arrives in force...........only 10K US troops in Europe today vrs 400K in late 1980s.

WW3 nearly started on the Pristina Airport where Russian VDV had taken over the airport. UK Gen. Jackson openly told Supreme NATO Commander Gen. Clark (US)............."I am not going to start WW3 for you, hence I reject your orders to dislodge Russians from the airport".

3 coins out of 4 say, Europe will jump the ship very fast.

If Russia and NATO went to war Russia would not be on the offensive. They do not have the numbers, the active military is only 100K men larger than just Turkeys active forces. Russia also has to keep forces in the east with the US able to come from either direction and keep forces to make sure China does not just liberate the Asian populations of Eastern Russia. They also have to keep forces in the the southern states that will rise up again if they see a chance. And they keep forces to deal with Georgia and Moldova who will use this a chance to chase the Russians out. And have to secure their entire Western border . And they have to do all this wilthout air or naval superiority. The real problem for the Russia's would be command, control and intelligence. They have spent almost nothing on this and it above all else gives the west its greatest advantage.

victor7

At this pace, we could maintain this pace for more than four years and could potentially cause Russia's GDP to drop by 4%.

Even if such actions lead to Russian GDP coming down by 1%, then Russia can sponsor "special operations' forces from Syria, Iran, NK to blow up the OPEC's main or major refineries. By the time it takes to figure out what happened, Russians will be laughing all the way to the bank.

Cues imperial death march


And play ...




Seriously it's hardly worth even getting started, Russia would bet steamrolled militarily and nobody should have to tell you why

So, was this confirmed to be true?
are we looking at a new checkpoint charlie?

victor7
very likely countries like Germany, France, S. Europe, C. Europe will drop out of NATO........to avoid the Russian 'multiple sledgehammer' blows.

LOL..... ok

victor7
This all even before the US arrives in force...........only 10K US troops in Europe today vrs 400K in late 1980s.

Try again -
Information about U.S. Army Europe.
US Army - European Command
US Marine Corp - Liason European Command
US Air Force - European Command
NATO Command

victor7
WW3 nearly started on the Pristina Airport where Russian VDV had taken over the airport. UK Gen. Jackson openly told Supreme NATO Commander Gen. Clark (US)............."I am not going to start WW3 for you, hence I reject your orders to dislodge Russians from the airport".

And what part are you leaving out that was the catalyst for that order? Since you failed to include it let me help -

The mission in the former Yugoslavia was a joint mission by the west and Russia. Russian ground units took it upon themselves and cross the border into Serbia, replacing their SFOR designations over to KFOR. They were heading to the airport in Pristina.

Why?

To secure the airport for Russian military units that were on standby in Russia. Russia maintained the joint command could not issue orders to Russian units. The Russians were also torqued because they wanted their own zone without NATO units along side. That demand was refused based on what we are seeing in Crimea and what we saw at the end of WWII - Russia occupying territory and refusing to leave it.

Gen Clark notified NATO's secretary general. Clark ordered Jackson to block the airport runways by moving helicopters into position, denying use of the airport.

That order was given to the French commander as well. The way the mission was set up allowed a nation to remove their forces, and in this instance France did just that. The British suggested, after refusing Clarks order , that tanks / ground units would be more appropriate. That went up to the MoD, who in turn order British units to secure the airport but do not block the runways.

The resolution was countries in the area refusing to allow Russian aircraft over flight of their territory, forcing the Russians to drop their plans of .... wait for it..... sending in large numbers of ground and paratrooper units that could be considered overkill for a basic keep the peace mission.

If you are going to make a point you should have all the information beforehand. You should also include all information and not cherry-pick the info in an effort to portray a situation as something its not.


snipped as it was directed to a comment you retracted. Thank you for that.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Xcathdra


Exactly at what point did you / anyone else decide Ukraine, being a sovereign nation, can't act in their own best interest.

Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine can host whatever nation it wants inside its territory and trying to argue the contrary just undermines Russia's position even more.

What Ukraine does inside its own borders is no one else's business, including Russia's.


No, it would be the response to 40-80k Russian troops arrayed along Ukraines border.

Exactly where does that fit in with your provocation scale?

edit on 1-4-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

Total agreement. If Russia can have an invasion sized force with all the tools for invasion (missiles, helicopters, tanks, ect) parked on the Ukrainian border doing "exercises", then the Ukraine can invite whoever the hell they want to train and exercise their own forces.

Or has everyone forgotten the fact that NATO did sign a defense treaty with the Ukraine? It is no more provacative for NATO to be there than it is for the Russians to put 40k troops right on Ukraine's doorstep. If anything, we see the Russians doing the provoking. They should have quit while they were ahead after they got Crimea.

Yea Russia signed same treaty lol. Meant whole lot to putrid. As did said treaties with Georgia, and how many others lol. Treaties mean nothing to putrid, nor does honesty to Russian leaders. What is sad is it took years to get even the slightest glimpse of freedom and liberty for the Russian people. Now they live in fear again.

No longer able to speak a word out loud against their government in protest or openly speak their mind or love who their hearts want. It is a very sad time to be Russian. Putrid is a crazy psycho right along side n Korean worm. Both of them psycho enough to end us all. Where is the hit squads when you need one. Lol

This is a time where Merkel and the EU is gonna have to step up and understand they don't need putrids gas that much. Show for the puny little psycho he is lol.

The Bot

victor7
Even if such actions lead to Russian GDP coming down by 1%, then Russia can sponsor "special operations' forces from Syria, Iran, NK to blow up the OPEC's main or major refineries. By the time it takes to figure out what happened, Russians will be laughing all the way to the bank. It will be Western economies in recession due to higher oil prices !!!

Think about what you are suggesting. You are ok with Russia engaging in actions against OPEC, even though they are not a part of it. That action would be taken because the US can affect the market.

This is one of my issues with your position. You have this ability to go after the west while ignoring the same actions by Russia.

Why is it not acceptable for the US to affect the energy sector yet it is ok for Russia to gouge Ukraine and by extension Europe?

victor7
ps: candily apologies for reading that article too fast, take the statements back. peace !!

edit on 1-4-2014 by victor7 because: (no reason given)

Thank you

Tell you what - we both have very different positions on some topics. In the interest of spirited debate how about we both take the time to adequately read each others posts / sources. Since its difficult to convey intent / tone, (even more so when dealing with a person from another country), with typed text how about we also ask each other what the intent / tone was of our posts so we can avoid the back and forth we normally end up with.

Aloysius the Gaul

JWash
This is about US not wanting EU doing business w/ Russia & taking over the Energy market there. This in turn will preserve the American dollar as the world's reserve currency. Well, they're planning that this is how it'll turn out. . .

the EU was more than happy to take Russian gas and oil for decades - if Crimea hadn't happened then that would continue.

however now the EU is looking for alternatives to Russian energy (Google search) - fracking has opened up a lot more gas reserves - Norway is being pressured to ship more, as far away as New Zealand moer areas are being opened up for hydrocarbon exploration.

Russia might well have done itself a power of harm in the medium-longer term by upsetting its best paying customers.

Did you just really post up a link of your google search? Lmao, thanks but. . . No thanks.

I'll stick w/ my original Reuters link

* This is just a sample of the Reuters article (sorry ATS that it's a long read)

WHAT IS TO BE DONE?

Even so, there are alternatives.

The Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland, which used to be part of, or dominated by, the Soviet Union but are now EU and NATO members, all rely almost completely on Russian gas supplies.

To reduce Moscow's energy grip, the region is planning to build several small-scale LNG import terminals.

U.S. LNG company Cheniere Energy, which expects to begin exporting gas in the next two years, is one of the companies in talks to supply the Baltic region.

Such terminals offer an alternative should Russia use gas for political leverage, but LNG is too costly to meet the bulk of demand.

U.S. plans to export LNG largely have Asian customers in mind, as prices there are almost twice as high as in Europe, so Europeans would have to match those prices to secure supply.

"European LNG imports have declined steadily since early 2011, reaching a nine-year low in 2013 as Asian and Latin American demand continued to grow," BG Group, a major LNG shipper, said in its global trade summary published this month, adding that it did not see this trend changing soon.

Europe may, however, be able to tap a much bigger and closer gas source.

Almost one trillion cubic meters of recoverable natural gas has been discovered in Israeli and Cypriot waters, enough to supply Europe for more than two years.

Although export projects are at early stages and politically difficult due to the region's instability, increased efforts are being made to make some of its gas available to Europe, and with Cyprus the EU would gain a new and internal supply source.

"With recent events in Europe ... and the aspiration of different countries to diversify their gas supply, that puts another spotlight on our massive resources," said Gideon Tadmor, CEO of Avner Oil, a leading developer of the region's resources, at a conference this month.

But accessing East Mediterranean gas will be expensive. Cost estimates to develop Cyprus's gas export project alone are as high as $10 billion and would be the largest investment in the island's history.

Building gas export facilities in the region will also be politically challenging.

"Someone will have to win a Nobel Peace Prize before getting the region's gas flowing," one source involved in exploration said.

It also might not succeed in cutting out the Russian interest; Gazprom is one of the companies that is interested in developing the region's gas fields for export.

Can you imagine the costs that is going to be handed down to the people of EU for this MASSIVE 'overhaul'?

Russia was giving Ukraine a 6+Billion discount for Energy but since the new illegitimate Ukrainian gov't took over, Russia is canceling the deal (since deal was with Yanukovych as president).


* So EU/Ukraine can look forward to:

loss of 6+Billion in discount + unknown length of time (2+yrs) of energy instability (winters may become brutal) + IMF austerity measures + costs of these expenditures/terminals will be passed down to the people + Russia still may have control over the energy region = MUCH HURT FOR EU/UKRAINE

By the time the U.S. primes its LNG export business, the international picture will likely have changed. In the interim, other countries may tap their own shale gas resources while Russia will probably have re-ingratiated itself with the world community. American natural gas may be a prized domestic asset — but it’s not a silver bullet in the global effort to neuter Russia.

Forbes


. . . At the end of the day, Russia STILL may have control over energy in the region.

JWash

Russia was giving Ukraine a 6+Billion discount for Energy but since the new illegitimate Ukrainian gov't took over...

Would that be the same Parliament that was elected before Yanukovych abandoned his post?

, Russia is canceling the deal (since deal was with Yanukovych as president).

Indeed- the deal was with an individual....which pretty much tells you just exactly how corrupt that individual was.

People whine about the supposed $5 billion the US "paid" for the revolution, but do not mention the $15 Billion the Russians offered to Yanukovych, along with the gas discounts.

And since the price of gas in Ukraine is already subsidized, it would not be going down for the consumers - rather Yanukovych would be able to pocket all the subsidies that no longer had to be paid.

Since then the Russians have increased the price of gas to Ukraine

* So EU/Ukraine can look forward to:

loss of 6+Billion in discount + unknown length of time (2+yrs) of energy instability (winters may become brutal) + IMF austerity measures + costs of these expenditures/terminals will be passed down to the people + Russia still may have control over the energy region = MUCH HURT FOR EU/UKRAINE
....
. . . At the end of the day, Russia STILL may have control over energy in the region.

Indeed - you do not substitute 50% of your energy supplies overnight.

Hence I was commenting on the medium-longer term.

reply to post by Xcathdra
[m

You are ok with Russia engaging in actions against OPEC, even though they are not a part of it. That action would be taken because the US can affect the market.

Military is not the only tool to conduct war on any country. Hence if US is outright 'conspiring' to bring oil prices down by dirty and non free market practices, then it is a matter of 'war like' conduct and hence negating reactions have to take place.

What happens if Russia sends 100 kgs of enriched uranium to Iran and declares that to the whole world. Iranians lack only enriched uranium to make a bomb. What will such conduct do to the oil prices? $200 per barrel anyone ?? Whole world in recession type of scenario ??

What happens if Russia supplies Iran and Syria with hypersonic missiles that skim the sea levels and make violent unpredictable moves in the terminal phase to dodge Israel's Iron Dome type defenses.

Guess Russia will have to do something to negate the lower oil prices !! Be it $1M open market tender for terrorism on Saudi oil assets or $100M weapons supply to 'best friends of the US'.

It will all boomerrang on the NEOCONS, as simple as that !!

Aloysius the Gaul

victor7
reply to post by dlbott

 

Write all this or that you want.........but...........if Ukraine joins the NATO

then

All the Hell will break Loose !!

So let's hope Uks remain neutral territory for the good of all !!

Ukraine has no proposal for joining NATO, and never has had.

If it did it would be telegraphed years ahead.

Well, I was slated to go and replace a friend there a few years ago working with their military and you my friend don't have a clue what you are talking about. We have been helping them for years and they had already made the move to the west. The Russians worked very very hard using their favorite tool, corruption and money, to try and sway things back their way.

The people, and most of the military have other ideas, namely freedom and democracy. The Ukrainian people want freedom, not slavery to putrid. They don't want to go backwards. Truth is the Russians don't really either, not the every day folks. Are you crazy, beaten and jailed for speaking their mind. Who would want that.

Bottom line, EU needs to step up, the majority of which are bound by treaty to defend Ukraine and other countries. Putrid is pushing little to far and he knows it, but does he care. He is bat chit crazy you know...... Certified lol...

The Bot

dlbott

Aloysius the Gaul

victor7
reply to post by dlbott

 

Write all this or that you want.........but...........if Ukraine joins the NATO

then

All the Hell will break Loose !!

So let's hope Uks remain neutral territory for the good of all !!

Ukraine has no proposal for joining NATO, and never has had.

If it did it would be telegraphed years ahead.

Well, I was slated to go and replace a friend there a few years ago working with their military and you my friend don't have a clue what you are talking about. We have been helping them for years and they had already made the move to the west.

Yes but that is not eth same as joining NATO - NATO is a very specific alliance, with specific membership, and they have not applied to join it!

The Russians worked very very hard using their favorite tool, corruption and money, to try and sway things back their way.

The people, and most of the military have other ideas, namely freedom and democracy. The Ukrainian people want freedom, not slavery to putrid. They don't want to go backwards. Truth is the Russians don't really either, not the every day folks. Are you crazy, beaten and jailed for speaking their mind. Who would want that.

Absolutely - but that is still not Ukraine applying to join NATO.

Bottom line, EU needs to step up, the majority of which are bound by treaty to defend Ukraine and other countries. Putrid is pushing little to far and he knows it, but does he care. He is bat chit crazy you know...... Certified lol...

The Bot

I agree - but that is not Ukraine applying to join NATO either.