Deep Impact Probe.

Every nation has there problems, but you dont throw all your money at a single or a few problems in order to solve them. America isn't pefect and no one said it was, but if I could choose to live anywhere in the world, I would still choose the US.

Thats because you havent experienced life in Australia Mate! dont know what your missing!

Originally posted by instar
I think your gov spends way too much on space and defence and not nearly enough on its own people ! And you folk allow it! Thats gotta be the best example of mass complacency ive ever heard of! Incredible ! spend 400plus bil on housing and you wont have a homeless problem. spend 15 bill on education, health...etc etc the list goes on and on. What the hell is wrong with people? some prioritys!

[edit on 26-11-2004 by instar]

orgaa
What are you smoking. The welfare handouts EXCEED the DOD budeget. Thats right Exceed. Its just unoragnized so most people dont know about it. Its in teh range of up to 500 Billion a year on welfare. I Say take away the system or at least organize it. 50 Billion can feed all the US population, we dont need 450 Billion wasted. The system is too unorganized and needs to be corrected. Before you make claims get your facts straight sir.

Originally posted by slank
I think they would rather be in a 3rd world country in poverty rather than trying to swim in molten rock or battleing supersonic winds or having to live with rocks falling from the sky or a couple of years of virtually no sunlight.

Lack of sunlight would be smallest of your worries... heat of ejecta falling back to earth would make atmosphere "to glow in the dark", heat it so hot that heat radiating from air would boil and vaporise surface layers of oceans and burn everything compustible.

Imagine: NASA scientists announce they have detected a 10-mile-wide asteroid on a collision course with the Earth. They calculate it will hit Southeast Asia in two weeks. There is no chance of Bruce Willis being sent on a beefed-up space shuttle to blow up the asteroid. Earthlings will have to ride out the impact.

People in Brazil feel less vulnerable than most of the world's population. They are on the opposite side of the Earth from the predicted impact point. But one hour after the impact Brazilians notice some brilliant meteors. Then more meteors. Soon the sky gets brighter and hotter from the overwhelming number of meteors. Within a few minutes trees ignite from the fierce radiant heat. Millions of fragments of rock, ejected into space by the blast, are making a fiery return all over the planet.

Only people hiding underground survive the deadly fireworks display. Within three hours, however, massive shock waves from the impact travel through the Earth's crust and converge on Brazil at the same time. The ground shakes so violently that the ground fractures and molten rock spews from deep underground. Maybe Brazil wasn't the best place to be after all.

The survivors of the firestorms, tsunami and massive earthquakes emerge to a devastated landscape. Within a few days the Sun vanishes behind a dark thick cloud -- a combination of soot from the firestorms, dust thrown up by the impact and a toxic smog from chemical reactions. Photosynthesis in plants and algae ceases and temperatures plummet. A long, sunless Arctic winter seems mild compared to the new conditions on most of the planet.

After a year or so the dust settles and sunlight begins to filter through the clouds. The Earth's surface starts warming up. But the elevated carbon dioxide levels created by the fires (and, by chance, vaporization of huge quantities of limestone at the impact site) results in a runway greenhouse effect. Those creatures that managed to survive the deep freeze now have to cope with being cooked.

That forgets acid rains!

And there might well be one additional "bonus"...

Impact, volcanoes, or both?

The debate continues on whether the Chicxulub impact caused the mass extinction at the end of the Cretaceous Period or whether it was one of a sequence of disasters. The Deccan Traps of India are the remnants of a massive upwelling of molten rock from deep within the Earth 65 million years ago.

A possible link between impacts and volcanism became evident in 1974 when the Mariner 10 spacecraft flew past the innermost planet Mercury. The planet was found to be covered with impact craters like the moon. One giant impact crater on Mercury was particularly interesting. Directly opposite the impact point, on the other side of the planet (called the "antipodal point") was a region of highly disrupted terrain with no evidence of an impact. The shock waves from the impact on one side of Mercury had traveled around the surface and met simultaneously at the antipodal point to create the chaotic features. Similar features have since been detected on several moons of the giant planets.

Astronomer Duncan Steel has suggested that the same occurred with the Chicxulub impact and that the shock waves caused the Deccan Traps. Taking into account millions of years of continental drift, this region would have been at the antipodal point to Mexico at the time of the impact. Although the eruption may have contributed to the suffering, it now seems more likely that the Deccan Traps were just a consequence of the catastrophic initial event, the Chicxulub impact.

Also there's some kind of highlands in Mars pretty accurately other side of it than huge Hellas impact basin.

www.space.com...

Originally posted by IBM

Originally posted by instar
I think your gov spends way too much on space and defence and not nearly enough on its own people ! And you folk allow it! Thats gotta be the best example of mass complacency ive ever heard of! Incredible ! spend 400plus bil on housing and you wont have a homeless problem. spend 15 bill on education, health...etc etc the list goes on and on. What the hell is wrong with people? some prioritys!

[edit on 26-11-2004 by instar]

orgaa
What are you smoking. The welfare handouts EXCEED the DOD budeget. Thats right Exceed. Its just unoragnized so most people dont know about it. Its in teh range of up to 500 Billion a year on welfare. I Say take away the system or at least organize it. 50 Billion can feed all the US population, we dont need 450 Billion wasted. The system is too unorganized and needs to be corrected. Before you make claims get your facts straight sir.

If thats the case your nation has worse problems than I suspected ! It goes even worse for you if you spend that much and still cant acheive any measure of success! and ya wanna conqure space! geez!!

Well, there are very few options when it comes to short-notice asteroids and comets. We can chew palm trees, and wait for the asteroids to obliterate us (inevitable). We can nuke them from the outside (missile-delivered bombs or soft-landed Orion systems), the inside (using kinetic penetrators or soft-landed drills), deflect them with kinetic impactors (like Deep Impact), soft-land KIWI-type nuclear propulsion modules (and reactive-mass fuel). Each of these options needs to be tested and the best systems made operational for the indefinite future. It would be nice if the UN had a space program, but it does not, so if the US doesn't do it, you better keep chewing that palm tree.

As for costs, come on guys! This is ATS, home of Area 51 and The Black Budget. You think that Deep Impact REALLY cost that much?

Let's hope all that 'lost' money is building some very capable, very black hardware.

[edit on 27-11-2004 by Chakotay]

I never really had any problem with the money, I was more interested in their choice to ram it. I know they must explore other options for "combating" these things, hence ramming it.
I believe nukes are useless in deep space for such tasks (they don't produce any blast wave).

Originally posted by Notme
I believe nukes are useless in deep space for such tasks (they don't produce any blast wave).

You've got to read the declassified stuff on Project Orion. Pulse units have a polyethylene cladding that provides vectored thrust in vacuum. They have higher Isp than Kiwi reactor-rockets.

None of us talked about solar sails or solar ion thrusters, etc.- I want to say why I was silent about these. The Saturn V was designed, among other things, to bust comets with nukes. The assumption was you would have short notice of an incoming comet; with long lead times, you could use a small, continuous solar-powered push or pull on even a large object to cause a big change in trajectory. But with short notice, you would need something fast and safe from sea level to HEO that can carry a big wallop. That means chemical propulsion in the short term or mass drivers in the long term. And something that can go with a heavy payload from HEO to deep space, rapidly. That probably means nuclear propulsion of some kind. And can manouver and softland if needed. Like the original LEM. With that capability you could just blast away or set up some kind of Orion engine on the potential impactor.

I used to laugh at the Kiwi tests. The nuclear rocket exhaust was upside down. Then I heard Eugene Shoemaker talk about impact events. Instantly I realized Kiwi was pushing in the right direction: to move the object it was stationed on. An 'upside-down' Orion thruster would be even more efficient Isp-wise.

We need heavy lift. We needed it in the 1960's, and we got it, and then we let it slip away. Without it, we are a dead species walking.

Just my cheery thought of the day

[edit on 29-11-2004 by Chakotay]

Chakotay - A MinuteMan-III would be our most likely choice of taking out an asteroid or comet, if its within a few days notice.

As for heavy lifting - Boeing & Lockheed are developing new heavy lifters, they will do there first flight early 2005. But no, they can not lift as much as the freaken HUGE apollo rockets.

Besides, if I remember correctly each Saturn-5 Rocket cost 2 billion, No its just not concievable that we could keep one or two of them standing buy in case we spotted an object heading our way.

I read the Project Orion links, that is an interesting propulsion possibility, but I was referring to the use of a nuke (like in the movies) to "blowup" an asteroid.
From much of what I have been able to find on the net regarding nuclear detonations in space (now illegal by treaty), nukes aren't the big hitters that they are on earth in an atmosphere.
Here's a link I could dig up without looking to hard, can't remember the rest of them.
Basically, in the vacuum of space, there is no atmosphere for the nuke to generate the fire ball and extreme pressure wave. There is however some intense radiation in a couple of forms.
www.hq.nasa.gov...

[edit on 11/29/2004 by Notme]

The whole "just nuke it" theory used for asteroids is dead and gone, Currently the top asteroid defense contender is to not have the nuke detonate when it hits, because all that will do is make one big global killer into many smaller gobal killer, hence not solving the problem, so the current method is position the warhead on the side of the asteroid, and the force from the huge blast should be enough to push earth out of its deadly path.

Originally posted by Murcielago
The whole "just nuke it" theory used for asteroids is dead and gone, Currently the top asteroid defense contender is to not have the nuke detonate when it hits, because all that will do is make one big global killer into many smaller gobal killer, hence not solving the problem, so the current method is position the warhead on the side of the asteroid, and the force from the huge blast should be enough to push earth out of its deadly path.

Yea, thats the point, there is no "Blast".
So you not only wouldn't break it up into little pieces, you wouldn't be able to deflect it with a side detonation either.

Originally posted by Murcielago
force from the huge blast should be enough to push earth out of its deadly path.

You meant push the asteroid right? not the Earth.

Originally posted by Murcielago
the current method is position the warhead on the side of the asteroid, and the force from the huge blast should be enough to push earth out of its deadly path.

Correct, but think a series of pulse-unit blasts, Orion-style, and you've got it. ICBM's don't have sufficient deep-space capability or payload to deflect extinction-level impactors. The Prometheus stuff will. As for not being able to afford 2 billion or 20 billion or whatever to prevent Armageddon, think Indian. Money is imaginary. Extinction is not. Like the Marines say, 'Whatever it Takes'.

notme - Yes, there would be a blast.

as for the other thing, it depends on how you read it, I meant it as the earth would no longer be in its crosshairs.

Chakotay - Prometheus stuff?
When I hear that word I think of 3 things, 1. J.I.M.O. / 2. X-303 / 3. Jupiter Volcano --Are you talking about one of those?

[edit on 29-11-2004 by Murcielago]

Originally posted by Murcielago
notme - Yes, there would be a blast.

Really, I am most interested in the effects, I researched this for awhile, but have found only limited data. Mostly test done in the 60s before the treaty ban on atomic detonation test in space. The data I did find all stated that there is no blast (at least in the way most people think)
Most of the data was geared more about antibolistic defense and anti satellite defenses. One report stated that a detonation would have to occur within 1000 meters of it's target (satellite or missile)to destroy it. And then the the destruction was the result of extreme radiation bombardment of the target surface to the point of super heating it and causing it to fall apart. The EMP wave was most effective against electronic satellites, but doesn't do much physically.

Can you post some links to test data describing the blast waves?


[edit on 11/29/2004 by Notme]

ICBMs aren't capable to leaving LEO.
Like one of the newest Astronomy magazines states we can't do sh*t to kilometers sized objects, without even talking about extinction level impactors.
In ten-twenty we might be able to dfeflect smaller than those... if given enough warning time.


Nuke's blast is versy small in space because there's no air which could absorb it's radiation. (which causes air to heat and expand)
So without air blast comes only from expanding bomb debris. (and from radiation pressure)


Here's godo page about effects of nuclear weapons.
nuclearweaponarchive.org...

I'm still knee deep in comet research.... found this site which has some good facts/stat about them: www.matter-antimatter.com...

When galactic antimatter enters our solar system, antimatter is called comets.

That seems 'simple' enough, still, I didn't know that... the site goes onto say Ithat Hubble's viewing of the comet Temple I/Deep Impact probe strike confirmed this fact, and the site calls that, "the greatest discovery since fire."

www.matter-antimatter.com...

Here's the NASA page for Deep Impact/comet Temple I w/ photos and composite makeup of Temple I:

www.nasa.gov...

The NASA Deep Impact pages have some decent info, I learned that the probe 'hit and run' the comet and is still available for research, "if needed."

This could happen soon should the funding be in place in a month for more work by Deep Impact:

The team put together a proposal to use the spacecraft's telescope to observe the atmospheres of alien worlds, and to visit another comet. The proposed extended mission is called EPOXI (Extrasolar Planet Observation and Deep Impact Extended Investigation), and it has received $500,000 from NASA for an initial study to determine the requirements and costs in greater detail.

If approved, as Deep Impact passes by Earth on December 31, 2007, it will use our planet's gravity to direct itself to comet Boethin. While it cruises toward the comet, the first part of the extended mission -- the investigation of alien worlds --would begin in January, 2008. More than 200 alien (extrasolar) planets have been discovered to date. Most of these are detected indirectly, by the gravitational pull they exert on their parent star. Directly observing extrasolar planets is very difficult, because the star is so brilliant compared to the planet. Planets simply get lost in the glare, like fireflies near a headlight.

www.nasa.gov...

I am torn between continuing this work and not. Like a couple threads floating around about some Russians trying to sue NASA for "disturbing the universe" mentioned, maybe this is why Holmes has been doing what's it's doing lately. This is my 'educated guess' and it seems possible.... another NASA page has a strange scenario where they speculate that Neptune and Uranus could of switched position early in the solar system's forming:

Comet Tempel-1 may have been born in the region of the solar system occupied by Uranus and Neptune today, according to one possibility from an analysis of the comet's debris blasted into space by NASA's Deep Impact mission. If correct, the observation supports a wild scenario for the solar system's youth, where the planets Uranus and Neptune may have traded places and scattered comets to deep space.

Lastly, here's a pretty awesome page in flash describing the finding of Deep Impact so far, includes graphs and charts.... oh and to go full circle w/ my post, here's the CERN homepage, the particle machine of matter/antimatter, which has some 101 for those like me trying to understand more about comets, etc.

deepimpact.umd.edu...
livefromcern.web.cern.ch...


[edit on 13-11-2007 by anhinga]

reply to post by anhinga


Good work on looking back for older data that has relevance to what we are seeing now. I too am not sure just how all of this ties together, but feel that you may have a point about Comet Holmes.

Good work and a star, as well as applause for a good job.

Originally posted by anhinga
I'm still knee deep in comet research.... found this site which has some good facts/stat about them: www.matter-antimatter.com...

When galactic antimatter enters our solar system, antimatter is called comets.

That seems 'simple' enough, still, I didn't know that... the site goes onto say Ithat Hubble's viewing of the comet Temple I/Deep Impact probe strike confirmed this fact, and the site calls that, "the greatest discovery since fire."...

You didn't know that because it's not true. Comets are NOT antimatter. It's an interesting idea, but it's not consistent with what we DO know about comets.

Space is not a perfect vacuum. A comet is constantly running into other matter. If a comet was composed of antimatter, then there would be huge matter-antimatter annihilations going on all the time with comets, not just when they approched the Sun.

And when an antimatter comet approached the Sun where there is even more matter, the amount of matter-antimatter annihilation would be TREMENDOUS -- more than we normally observe with a comet -- and also give of vast amounts of gamma radiation, which comets don't.

We saw Shoemaker-Levy 9 hit Jupiter. The effects on Jupiter at that time were certainly noticeable, but if that comet was made of antimatter the explosion would have been bigger than anything ever witnessed and would have probably taken a chunk out of Jupiter -- which it didn't.

The probe that hit comet Tempel-1 was of such a mass that the explosion created would have been immensely more violent if Tempel-1 was antimatter. And again, the gamma radiation emissions would have been off the charts, because that's what happens during a matter-antimatter explosion. There were no immense gamma-ray emissions from that impact.

The blackness of Halley's comet probably has nothing to do with antimatter (I don't see how "blackness" would necessarily be a trait of antimatter anyway, but I could be wrong). The blackness of the nucleus can be explained by it being composed of complex organic molecules -- which I personally think is more interesting than if it were made of antimatter (but that's just me.)

In NASA's 'Stardust' mission, we actually brought back to Earth some of the material which makes up a comet (specifically comet Wild 2). That material brought back is obviously not antimatter, or me wouldn't have been able to capture it.

While the comet antimatter theory is interesting at first blush, as many alternative science theories are, it doesn't stand up to the facts and our first-hand observations of comets.


[edit on 11/13/2007 by Soylent Green Is People]

I have to say that the pic at the bottom of this page looks airbrushed.

Tempel 1 Composite

Like I sorta laced my post with speculation, plus (blindly?) believing that site I posted as well as a couple of other look-sees, I, as well, don't tie antimatter into comet composition -- I'll have to turn to our newly-appointed expert on the matter since there's contradicting info afloat... and thanks NGC2736 for digging my post!

[edit on 13-11-2007 by anhinga]