Deep Impact Probe.

Why spend so much in an attemp to find out what its made of? Its only gonna give results for that particular rock. Next one might be different composition altogether. Moneys better spent on preperation for defence against earth bound rocks that ARE a threat!

Originally posted by instar
Why spend so much in an attemp to find out what its made of? Its only gonna give results for that particular rock. Next one might be different composition altogether. Moneys better spent on preperation for defence against earth bound rocks that ARE a threat!

This is NASA, they get 15 billion a year to spend on Space and aeronautics, its civilian. The militarys budget is currently 420 billion, I think there getting there share, dont you?

I think your gov spends way too much on space and defence and not nearly enough on its own people ! And you folk allow it! Thats gotta be the best example of mass complacency ive ever heard of! Incredible ! spend 400plus bil on housing and you wont have a homeless problem. spend 15 bill on education, health...etc etc the list goes on and on. What the hell is wrong with people? some prioritys!

[edit on 26-11-2004 by instar]

Originally posted by instar
I think your gov spends way too much on space and defence and not nearly enough on its own people ! And you folk allow it! Thats gotta be the best example of mass complacency ive ever heard of! Incredible ! spend 400plus bil on housing and you wont have a homeless problem. spend 15 bill on education, health...etc etc the list goes on and on. What the hell is wrong with people? some prioritys!
[edit on 26-11-2004 by instar]

Theres a little thing called EARN IT.

If you live in the US there is no reason to not have a job, if you drive down a street you allways see Help Wanted in fast food resturants. No, its not a good paying great job, but you take what you get and work there and live in an apartment until you can get a better job and then down the road a house. People who decide now to work will not get free handouts.

Whats wrong with our Healthcare?

Judging by your responses i'm guessing.....Europe.

Originally posted by Murcielago

Originally posted by instar
I think your gov spends way too much on space and defence and not nearly enough on its own people ! And you folk allow it! Thats gotta be the best example of mass complacency ive ever heard of! Incredible ! spend 400plus bil on housing and you wont have a homeless problem. spend 15 bill on education, health...etc etc the list goes on and on. What the hell is wrong with people? some prioritys!
[edit on 26-11-2004 by instar]

Theres a little thing called EARN IT.

If you live in the US there is no reason to not have a job, if you drive down a street you allways see Help Wanted in fast food resturants. No, its not a good paying great job, but you take what you get and work there and live in an apartment until you can get a better job and then down the road a house. People who decide now to work will not get free handouts.

Whats wrong with our Healthcare?

Judging by your responses i'm guessing.....Europe.

What the hell are you rabbitting on about? did I say give money away to folk in the street? No. You read "homeless", and like other ignorant arragant $#$% you immediatly stereotyped them into bludgers who dont want a job and then assumed I meant give them money!
Your healthcare sux if folk can say they cant afford to see a doctor ,just for start! medical care should be avail to ALL.
You did not address your governments desire to spend 420 billion a year on defence or 15 billion a year on space in preferance to Education, housing, etc etc etc. Nobody said anything about free handouts. Please understand what you are reading before you shoot your mouth.
And No, Im not in Europe!

[edit on 26-11-2004 by instar]

15 Billion is nothing. If the us was spending 150 billion on space that would be better, because whatever people say about it ADDING TO THE COLLECTIVE KNOWLEDGE OF HUMANITY WILL HELP US ALL EVEN THE HOMELESS EVENTUALLY. For example, if we start to mine asteroids there will be less of a need for such a cutthroat capitolist system based on scarce resources. In the future it will be the exact opposit, economics based on abundance, and any sacrifices we need to make to get there is well worth it.

Only in North America will you find a fat bum.....and don't ge tme wrong I empathize with them but most of the ones who can't help themselves are mentally ill, so they belong in a sanitarium or mental hospitol. The homeless by choice crowd is not a myth either, I have met some of them and they are just trying to make the best of a bad situation. Gov't help is always needed but it should't be at the expense of Space Exploration.

Defence spending however is a totally different debate.

Jus a question if it takes light years for us to see something that far when will we know the data?? lol

dumb nasa

I agree the 311 million is a lot, and a good chunk of that could be blamed on the Corp. greed. But I do hope that it will work, and we will be sucessfull in finding what they are supose to find. I will also look forward to the results.

Originally posted by sardion2000
15 Billion is nothing. If the us was spending 150 billion on space that would be better, because whatever people say about it ADDING TO THE COLLECTIVE KNOWLEDGE OF HUMANITY WILL HELP US ALL EVEN THE HOMELESS EVENTUALLY. For example, if we start to mine asteroids there will be less of a need for such a cutthroat capitolist system based on scarce resources. In the future it will be the exact opposit, economics based on abundance, and any sacrifices we need to make to get there is well worth it.

Only in North America will you find a fat bum.....and don't ge tme wrong I empathize with them but most of the ones who can't help themselves are mentally ill, so they belong in a sanitarium or mental hospitol. The homeless by choice crowd is not a myth either, I have met some of them and they are just trying to make the best of a bad situation. Gov't help is always needed but it should't be at the expense of Space Exploration.

Defence spending however is a totally different debate.

Consumerism cannot continue indefinatly. you cant mine food from an asteroid either! This wonderful new future of abundance you phrophecy is a fallacy based on consumerism unlimited. We already have abundance, we just dont share it. Just imagine how much 15 billion could do, or 420 billion could do for that matter, to improve life for millions of folk, right now, not in some pipedream spaced out wishful thinking idea of future. To hell with space, its dark, cold and theres nothing out there! Spending that much on defence and airy fairy space exploration is just madness, plain and simple. you wonder why they call america a godless capitalist nation etc etc its like burning food infront of a starving child. waste! Ya know what the alien in "independence day" told the guy, that they consume all then move on? Thats how much of the world see America.

instar, your post seems overly emotional, you gotta take the whole picture into perspective. You also seem to know very little about the technological capabilities we have now. The only reason we aren't mining asteroids and comits right now is because its not profitable yet. As for the food comment your right we cant get food from asteroids but we can set up orbital greenhouses MADE FROM ASTEROID MATERIALS. I advise you to check this thread as it has alot of information about the future of "consumerism" as you put it, my belief is that consumerism is dying(at least its current destructive form). As for the abundance we supposedly have...Well greenpeace would disagree with you. They have pretty much said we need at least 3 earths worth of resources to bring the standard of living up to western standard(ie no mass starvation).

One thing you seem to be forgetting is that there is alot of water in some asteroids and who in their right mind would object to getting our water elsewhere? If we get it from space then there is no need to tap aquifers, fresh water lakes or set up expensive desalination plants powered by dangerous nuclear power plants. Anyway its gonna happen whether you object or not, because like it or not most people are apathetic about the subject and most will see it as a good thing. How bout mining the moon to set up huge solar collectors? These things are becoming feasable, don't let the suffering or poverty of the now cloud your vision of the future because WE CAN HAVE OUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO. It's possible. All you gotta do is reasearch the topic and you will see.

Edit:
Here is another link...
The moon may solve the worlds energy problems

[edit on 26-11-2004 by sardion2000]

Personally, I think $15 billion/yr is way too low of a budget for the space program. I agree with one of the other posters: $150 billion/yr would be more like it. Of course, the defense budget may have to be trimmed a little, but that's fine with me.

The space program is one of the few truly noble things our nation has done, and it's one of the things that greatly contributed to our once great stature in the world. It's important that we invest in it for a number of reasons:

1) One day we will depend on this knowledge/technology in order to preserve our species; or something similar to it. There will come a time when we either deplete our planet's resources or overpopulate it to the degree that some of us must leave and look for another residence. Or some other species-ending event may loom over us, requiring us to move. For this reason alone, it's worth whatever we can afford to spend on it.

2) As was demonstrated during the 60's and 70's, this technology pays for itself through commercially applicable offshoots resulting from the research being done. Many technical gizmos and new methods are developed in the process of doing space research and hardware design. So, the money put into the program is pumped back into the economy through it's byproducts.

3) It's the next frontier. Humans have always had a need to explore new frontiers. When humanity loses it's desire and need to see what's over the next mountain, I think we're finished as a species. When we become stagnant and complacent, lose our hunger for knowledge and our thirst for pushing the envelope, and when we forget how to dream, that day will be the beginning of the end for us. It just can't happen; we can't let it; the stakes are too high.

4) IMHO, if we were to shift our priorities a bit, and invest in those things that truly enrich our lives and elevate us as a species, then I'm sure we could afford to eradicate hunger and homelessness while at the same time growing in the areas of the sciences and the arts. Considering our apparent love of war and destruction, though, and our insatiable desire for more and more power, it seems all the noble things are either forgotten or ignored or put off to another day.

So, as far as I'm concerned, let 'em crash probes into comets just to see what happens if all it's costing us is $331 million. It could be worse. They could be spending that $331 million to pay for flattening a city somewhere in Iraq and killing thousands of innocent civilians ...

I am inclined to say that I agree with sardion2000. I dotn think we spend quite enough on space. I think too much money is being spent of projects that only give IMMIEDIATE gain. I have watched so many projects be cancled by the goverment simply because the research was not being productive yet. For instance the Particle Acceleratror. The goverment cut the funding on it because it wasnt doing anything. Had the research continued to and it was actually completed it could have opend many new discoversy about subatomic partices, nuclear fusion, magnitisim, how particels react etc... If it would have continued we may have had a new clean energy source through Fussion but becasue it was cancled we never got to do the work. Instead the goverment most lieky went off and spent money on another project that will give immeidate gain but wont effect the world so much. Like collecting methane form garbage dumps for fuel. They often cut LONG TERM programs that will give great results but are costly for SHORT TERM programs in large abundance that only work for so long.

Im not exactly talking aout THIS mission im talking about research in general. The science industry and the science tech develpoped from good funding and time would benifit the world greatly. Its just we live in a NOW society and people cant see beyond their door steps.

NASA has a small budget compared to otehr goverment orgnizations go complain about that.

dont forget too quickly that We are the Children of the stars We are made of Star Dust and if we want to continue to live among the stars we must take to them.

mizar-

So, as far as I'm concerned, let 'em crash probes into comets just to see what happens if all it's costing us is $331 million. It could be worse. They could be spending that $331 million to pay for flattening a city somewhere in Iraq and killing thousands of innocent civilians ...

didnt they do that already? If they crashed the probe into iraq they could have saved so many American lives! How much did it cost (to date) to bring down sadams regime anyway? I have no problem with long term goals, but you fix your own immediate problems before you go looking for the means to create utopia from space exploration. Tell starving children
that its worth 15 billion a year to play with asteroids! I have no shame about having emotions, but do not mistake common sense for emotions clouding the issue. A fact is a fact. We do NOT need to play interplanetry marbels, while millions starve and otherwise suffer. Its purely a selfish self serving mindset to say otherwise. no matter how elequently you butter toast, its still burnt bread!

[edit on 26-11-2004 by instar]

[edit on 26-11-2004 by instar]

So if a nation/people chooses not to embrace modern science (in what ever form that maybe) and decides to live a plainer simpler life, not use birth control (never mind AIDs and such), eventually out grows the land they live on (starvation), then I should redirect my money to THEM to help in their terrible situation. Perhaps some assistance would be appropriate, but only where they want help and commit to helping them selves. I have traveled the globe many times over and have formed my own opinions based on experience and observation. There is some truth to what is show on TV, but it's hardly ever the whole truth.
I do agree the budgets in the US need some major reform, but don't take it from one extreme to another.
I don't believe I know anyone who is not guilty of self indulgence in one form or another in their lives.

While I think slamming into the asteroid is less productive than drilling it, I'm sure NASA has worked the numbers to their best. They do work from a limited pool of money.

Instar - alright then, where do you live? I guessed Europe because everything you were saying sounded a lot like them, like how we have lower middle & upper class, while Europe is a large majority middle class, and the free healthcare is also a Europe thing, they give a lot of money to their lower class and take a lot of money from their upper class so the majority can be average. Thats why America has the most rich people, because if the once lived in Europe they moved because there is far less tax on the rich here.

As for Nasa's budget, 15 Billion isn't that much, because that price is for everything, and remember that their just space, their also aeronautics, and one of their longer term goals is to put wings on America in the 21st century, the last century was referred to as putting wheels on America.

Why do you always go back to "All the starving children", since that is obviously not talking about America, why should we always have to be the one's who send packages of food and water to other countries, we do enough of that!

As for mining asteroids for water, I think you meant comets. But i think you also forgot that the earth is over 2/3's water, we have more then enough water for a l-o-n-g time to come.

Originally posted by Murcielago
Instar - alright then, where do you live? I guessed Europe because everything you were saying sounded a lot like them, like how we have lower middle & upper class, while Europe is a large majority middle class, and the free healthcare is also a Europe thing, they give a lot of money to their lower class and take a lot of money from their upper class so the majority can be average. Thats why America has the most rich people, because if the once lived in Europe they moved because there is far less tax on the rich here.

As for Nasa's budget, 15 Billion isn't that much, because that price is for everything, and remember that their just space, their also aeronautics, and one of their longer term goals is to put wings on America in the 21st century, the last century was referred to as putting wheels on America.

Why do you always go back to "All the starving children", since that is obviously not talking about America, why should we always have to be the one's who send packages of food and water to other countries, we do enough of that!

As for mining asteroids for water

, I think you meant comets. But i think you also forgot that the earth is over 2/3's water, we have more then enough water for a l-o-n-g time to come.

I never mentioned water !
I live In Australia mate.
I refer to starving children in general, However my original post refered to Americas own people. For the richest nation on the globe you have plenty of genuinely disadvantaged citizens. I just think so much money, YOUR TAXES, could be better spent, on health, education, etc which will benifit you as a nation by creating more jobs and more skilled folk to fill them, hence boosting your national economy. More so than "putting wings on America" . How is smashing things in space creating a better America for all Americans. Why do you have a massive homless problem, a massive drug problem, a lack of education particularly among minority groups? Why do you have folk who say they cant afford to see a doctor or are turned away from a hospital because they dont have insurance? Surely as with any nation there are so many other down to earth issues which demand solution before you go off space exploring? If our government wanted to spend so much money on something other than people issues, the whole nation would be in an uproar, we dont stand for it. The governments money is OUR money, to be spent as WE see fit. Our schools, hospitals, housing, roads etc etc come first. At election time we wont buy so many hundred million to do this or that and sweet F.A for things that matter to us. Why does a nuke capable nation with more weaponry and defence than any other nation on the planet, need to spend 420 billion a year on more defence when its streets are filled with homeless and destitute, its crime rate is phenominal, its mainstream public education is considered to be less than good? People freeze to death in winter because they cant afford heating? Where is the "get real" factor? why are your folk all wanting to mine asteroids and build new planets while your own nation goes belly up? I just cant understand that, no matter how i try.
I have nothing against space exploration, its fantastic stuffthat advances us as a race, BUT, our own backyard is being destroyed while we gaze at the stars? Madness. Sorry.

How about this thread, imo should apply to defence and space spending, this illustrates my point........

'Shhh, don't say 'poverty''

Came across this article which raises some good points,

quote: Originally posted by New York Times
...more than 12 million American families continue to struggle, and not always successfully, to feed themselves.

The 12 million families represent 11.2 percent of all U.S. households. "At some time during the year," the report said, "these households were uncertain of having, or unable to acquire, enough food for all their members because they had insufficient money or other resources."

Of the 12 million families that worried about putting food on the table, 3.9 million had members who actually went hungry at some point last year. "The other two-thirds ... obtained enough food to avoid hunger using a variety of coping strategies," the report said, "such as eating less varied diets, participating in federal food assistance programs, or getting emergency food from community food pantries or emergency kitchens."

Franklin Roosevelt, in his second Inaugural Address, told a rain-soaked crowd, "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little."

I can hear the politicians in today's Washington having a hearty laugh at that sentiment.

Source


After looking at the figures presented in the article, do you feel that the current administration is justified in sending the millions upon millions of dollars in foriegn aid abroad when so many of the American citizens are struggling to feed themselves. Shouldn't charity start at home? Discuss.

I really dont think america has more problems than any othe nation. i think there are many people and orginizations tryign to help fix the problems and they make them apparent to the average day persons in an attemmpt to get everyone to help.

we just make a biger deal out of our problems in order to fix them.

thats my 2 cents

The water part of my last post was refering to what sardion2000 said.
-------------
Every nation has there problems, but you dont throw all your money at a single or a few problems in order to solve them. America isn't pefect and no one said it was, but if I could choose to live anywhere in the world, I would still choose the US.

You only hear bad news in the media, you wont hear a report saying "Everyone at Washington High School all got A's & B's, but what they do report is when everyone in the school gets D's & C's. Dont forget there's two sides to every coin, dont forget to flip it over.

Edit: BTW, I just wanted to point out that we have landed a spacecraft on an asteroid, NEAR Shoemaker's job was to orbit Eros, it did it's job well, so well in fact that they had the whole asteroid mapped and so then the probe was useless, so they diceded to try and land, and this probe was not designed to land, but it did land and they recieved a signal conformation that it landed in one piece, and this was back in 2001, just so ya know.

[edit on 27-11-2004 by Murcielago]

.
If it keeps us people from going the way of the dinosaurs it will be worth it and more, even to 3rd world countries.

I think they would rather be in a 3rd world country in poverty rather than trying to swim in molten rock or battleing supersonic winds or having to live with rocks falling from the sky or a couple of years of virtually no sunlight.

I don't like to see government agencies wasting money, but if it is going towards stretching and extending current technologies and knowlege it is not a waste in my opinon.

Invading Iraq WAS/IS a waste of money. [and lives and material and political capital]

[edit on 27-11-2004 by slank]