Beijing-bound MAS plane carrying 239 people missing as of 20 mins ago.

RP2SticksOfDynamite

option158
reply to post by sy.gunson

 

aarrghhh what?

try reading my post s l o w e r a n d y o u m a y u n d e r s t a n d i t!!...

what i was saying is that the debris field would be massive littering the sea with bits and pieces of stuff ( try think out of the square that you must live in) ( and not picking the easy items like the "tail section" )

I even reckon the drinks trolleys would float (for a while).

Not to mention luggage, escape chutes inflating. The D field would be
pretty enormous spread over 10's km's.
This is all a distraction it would appear.
I refer all back to the many coincidences which for me add up to
too many cookies for the tea cup saucer!!

This is the debris field from Air France AF447 off Brazil, however the conditions there were not as subjected to severe weather as this location off Australia. The Tail fin was the largest item found floating for AF447.

Air France AF447 sea surface debris field

option158
reply to post by sy.gunson

 

Nelson or dunedin ? Just guessing.

Wellington, Cook Strait etc

sy.gunson

qmantoo

WanDash
reply to post by Libertygal

 

We had reports that the Malaysian Military radar clocked this flight (meaning, minimally - an unexpected signal) heading across the Malaysian Peninsula into the Strait of Malacca at/about 2:15 a.m. (local time), which was about 2 hours into the flight.
We likewise, have the Thai Military saying their radar spotted the 'odd' flight heading in said direction...
So - if it was not MH-370...then...maybe...there's another plane we should be looking for...and...MH-370 was really hijacked...as a...DECOY.
...
Guess we'll see what story they tell us is...official...soon enough.

I think we may be the subject of a magicians slight-of-hand trick too. While we are concentrating on one aircraft, there is another out there as well. This would explain the confusion and the misinformation because the authorities do not know which is which at this point.

There are too many fishermen and others who have reported low flying aircraft in possibly totally different areas. There are many aspects to this mystery and they all have to have explanations which fit the facts and radar returns.

In the passenger compartments the O2 lasts 10 minutes for the passengers generated by chemicals not from a pressurised bottle and is delivered in 3 sections, not all from the same chemical source and the cabin crew's O2 bottles last a couple of hours I believe I read.

from pprune forum

Being familiar with the type, at the 230-240 tons that the aircraft weighed one hour into flight the performance limited altitude would have been between 38,000 and 39,000 ft, increasing about 10,000 ft for every 10 tons of fuel burned.

Normal takeoff fuel would have been in the range of 44-47 tons.

To climb significantly above these altitudes is not possible because the engines would not be able to develop the required thrust and the wing would not have been able to generate the required lift, both of which reduce with increased altitude.

To be able to climb to 45,000 ft (which is 2,000 ft above the certified ceiling of this 777) the weight would have to be reduced to approx. 165 tons; in other words the weight of the aircraft, payload and virtually no fuel .

However from one of sy.gunson's post I think

If however the engines are still developing thrust, with enough altitude and provided it had not entered a spin the aircraft would just fly out of the stall and recover to basically stable flight.

Unfortunately I am not the original source of the claim about climbing to 45,000ft. RMAF radar station Butterworth are the original source disclosed by their Government. As mentioned before without a transponder the only way you can tell with primary radar is to spot the aircraft 500nm distant, then the rules of trigonometry virtually confirm it. I myself have serious doubt that a loaded plane could do that. I know a guy who took a Boeing 727-100 to 42,000ft but that was a private jet with extra auxilliary fuel tanks so it was a flying gas can.

It should be possible actually if we know the number of passengers, the fuel loaded at Kuala Lumpur and the weight of cargo (Mangosteens) etc to do a rough calculation of the weight at last radio contact which gives an approximate weight before this supposed climb to 45,000ft.

The very first original search area by the way also included off the mouth of the Mekong Delta which is where the oil rig worker saw an explosion and burning aircraft in the sky. That places it 500nm from Butterworth radar.

Much in this saga has made no sense.

Furthermore a climb from 43,000ft to 45,000ft would take 20 minutes so the timeline has to be accounted for too.

I don't think the Malaysian Government has correctly reported the turn back course from last reported contact because Thailand said the aircraft was seen flying south towards Kuala Lumpur from Thailand and then made a right turn (ie west) over Kota Baru area. It sounds almost as if it dropped and flew over Vietnam and southern Cambodia in a large left turn then came south through the Gulf of Thailand.

edit on 20-3-2014 by sy.gunson because: (no reason given)

I decided to pull together the known weight and fuel data about MH370, or at least what I can deduce from press releases etc.

(...yes including the mangosteens)

I gather it took off with 31,000 US Gals (which is 68.5% full tanks) means it had a take off pax payload 30,200kg including catering weight + 4,000kg Mangosteens + Empty weight (est 172,300kg) + fuel (207,700lb/94,296kg) = 266,596kg TOW.

Boeing range charts are based on Empty weight plus payload and give a range at this weight combination of 7,600nm. That translates at 35,000ft and 490 knot cruise speed to 12hrs fuel at normal cruise (ie 22lb fuel per nautical mile)

This aircraft would have burned roughly 5,500kg fuel to reach 35,000ft or about the point of last radio contact so from that point, the Gross weight was 261,096kg before climbing to 45,000ft.

With RR Trent engines it had slightly more power than the Standard GE90 engines so perhaps this accounts for how it got slightly higher than standard service ceiling (43,100ft)

I also calculated a track wandering around the Gulf of Thailand thru the Straits of Malacca across to Sri Lanka west over the Maldives and turning southeast over the Maldives to the current search zone where debris was apparently sighted. That relates to a track of around 5,500nm well within the normal range at that fuel, however this aircraft was climbing and descending and turning all over the place. NTSB has estimated this would deprive the aircraft of 2 hours fuel from its normal range at altitude so the fuel consumption seems to correspond to known sightings and satellite responses.

Last satellite contact was 8.11am Malaysian time.

I want you all to have a look at the australian maritime images on this page please.

Number 3 & Number 4 have a map under the digital clocks showing the search area south and south south west of Perth but also a couple of places marked up near Africa. What do you think this means?

The avioniationist website has a nice map here but it shows the search area quite a lot more west of Perth. Maybe it is due to the wind and drift parameters?

I am really asking about the points near NW Africa as there was speculation the plane went up there at the start of things.

About the debris sighting off Perth. Think about this a moment.

The sequence of events.

March 16, a Colorado satellite imaging company called DigitalGlobe captured photos of the debris in the Southern Indian Ocean off Perth, Australia. This came out after Australian Prime-minister announced in Parliament 'credible' evidence (the photos) gave reason to start a search led by Australia for possible debris from MH 370.

Then the media scramble began, the focus was down under.

Looking a little closer at the source of the photos. Digitalglobe has two directors, both are retired USAF generals (General HME Howell and General MPC Carns). A clear link to the military. So what you ask? The military are the ones with all ability and technology.

But why the delay? Did they really need to take FOUR days to identify debris as a possible fuselage (as has been claimed it possibly is)? I am sure the satellite system and the analysis that goes with it is supposed to work a lot faster than that.

March 20 (Aussie time zone), Australian Prime-minister Abbott makes his announcement the search is on, involving Australian, New Zealand, and US airforce planes and one Aussie frigate, and one Norwegian car carrier in the area.

March 21 (Aussie time zone), announcement a storm has arrived and it will take a bit longer for them to check out the debris. Aussie Prime-minister is on camera again, this time in Parliament in New Guinea to tell us the search will take a little longer.

If you were a little cynical you might wander if the military and TPTB/military also didn't know about the oncoming storm in that area of the world and timed the announcement of debris photos just before the storm hit. That way we would all be looking that-a-way for a lot longer. It might take days before they find out the debris is nothing more than a shipping container or wreaked boat. Mean while everyone is looking down in the Southern Corridor as they call it.

Away from the Northern Corridor.

Ask your self this. When did you last see the media focus on the Northern Corridor the one that crosses the Indian subcontinent and beyond?

My point? I wonder the media is so dutifully looking away from the Northern Corridor.

qmantoo

Number 3 & Number 4 have a map under the digital clocks showing the search area south and south south west of Perth but also a couple of places marked up near Africa. What do you think this means?

I am really asking about the points near NW Africa as there was speculation the plane went up there at the start of things.

Well spotted!!! I'm going to do some digging and see if there's any info out there about who is searching up in the arabian sea or in somali waters... although uh, not sure if any military/navy/air force is keen on that because of all the somali pirates. Darn pirates.

Sheesh, once again, that was a really good spot! I wonder if AMSA are aware that that has been shown... or was it on purpose? No no,too many thoughts there. I'll just go dig.

reply to post by Tallone


INMARSAT notified Rolls Royce on 9th March (ie day after crash) that the target had flown south.

qmantoo
I want you all to have a look at the australian maritime images on this page please.

Number 3 & Number 4 have a map under the digital clocks showing the search area south and south south west of Perth but also a couple of places marked up near Africa. What do you think this means?

The avioniationist website has a nice map here but it shows the search area quite a lot more west of Perth. Maybe it is due to the wind and drift parameters?

I am really asking about the points near NW Africa as there was speculation the plane went up there at the start of things.

Those are projections of satellite coverage areas. If you look in Number 3 the circles are distended at their bases which is because at the polar regions their coverage covers a greater range of longitudes.

Those over Somalia are not geostationary orbits since such satellites are generally parked Longitudinally with only minor variation below and above the Equator. All civilian Geostationary orbits are known and their locations can be established. I doubt there are any civilian sat's in geostationary orbit over Somalia however they could be military geostationary spy satellites.

Those over the sub Antarctic would not be geostationary either, since they are so highly inclined to the equator that they could not be geostationary.

sy.gunson
reply to post by Tallone

 

INMARSAT notified Rolls Royce on 9th March (ie day after crash) that the target had flown south.

Source?

What on earth would make you think Inmarsat had the final word on this? If there was a cover-up, which is what I am talking about. It is obviously at a government level. It is involving the USA, Australia, New Zealand. Just for starters. This would be TPTB, INMARSAT is part of that.

March 9th you say. On MARCH 17th a full week after your date of notification from INMARSAT to some other major corporation - from some unknown source - the Malaysian government announced they had evidence the plane headed North. Now they are saying nothing. Bigger hands than their's are pulling the strings now.

Read:

Investigators poring over MH370’s flight data had said the plane had flown low and used “terrain masking” as it flew over the Bay of Bengal and headed north towards land, the NST reported.
...
On Saturday, Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Razak said the search for MH370 would now expand to areas beyond Thailand to Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan in the north and beyond Indonesia in the south.

This was after satellite data placed the aircraft in one of two corridors: at the north stretching from northern Thailand to Kazakhstan, or at the south, from Indonesia to the southern Indian Ocean.

The NST quoting sources said the probe would now focus on regions with disused airports equipped with long runways capable of handling a plane like the Boeing 777.

Putrajaya has briefed envoys from nearly two

SOURCE

Not all US military are onside about this. Here is Lieutenant General Tom McInerney.

MCINERNEY: It's about 3,500 miles, seven hours, 500 miles through, let's say. So -- and they went north for a part, say 3,000 miles, 3,200 miles, something like that. Of course there now appears to be evidence that there was a direct course through India flying in the shadow of a Singapore flight 68. That hasn't been verified. The only thing that I have seen that is starting to become verified is the report from Boeing saying they believe the airplane was in Pakistan, which I talked about on Friday.

What I do know is the most sensors that we have in the world are in that region. They're not in the south of the Indian Ocean. We have a lot of sensors up there so we have a lot of capabilities. And I believe with Rolls-Royce and with Boeing as well as the U.S. government, we know a lot more than is coming out. I suspect we may in the next 24 to 48 hours start hearing from either the Malaysian government or the Pakistani government. If the Pakistani government doesn't talk soon, they're going to be complicit in this.

SOURCE

The debris search in the Southern Indian Ocean appears to be nothing less than a diversion. We are not supposed to be asking questions about the Northern Corridor.

reply to post by option158


Oh trust me, I know. We're never going to know the full story, I'm my opinion they will find a wreckage it won't be the 777 though, but we will be lead to believe it. And how convinent that the wreckage will be over a deep abyss, so the black box most likely wont be recovered.

Something shady is going on for sure.

reply to post by Tallone


And who fed Tony abortt the sat images?? Hint: (Us military)

reply to post by option158

Exact.
But there is more at play than just the US military I think. That is why you have dissent within the ranks and a general on Fox news leaking info (or disinfo depending on your take on it). Something is going on we are definitely not privy to. The media circus are leading us in--yeah-- circles naturally.

MH 370 threatens to expose something, reveal something to the people of the world the TPTB definitely do not want us to know. What's going down now is a desperate attempt to correct that situation before whatever there is to reveal gets revealed. It's a theory and that is all it is at this point. But to me it makes a hell of a lot more sense than what we are being led to believe.

The debris will in all likelihood turn out to be unrelated to MH 370. Then some other bone thrown to us, and it won't be in the direction of the Northern Corridor. Or maybe when they announce the debris is not from MH 370 they will also tell us the search is using up too many resources and will henceforth be scaled down... At least it is taking the minds of the world off the ever worsening GFC ha ha. TPTB must be appreciating that part of it.

Smells fishy and far more than a fishermans basket!
Too many coincidences associated with this plane. Be that
pilot, passengers, cargo, signals etc etc.

Tallone
reply to post by option158

 

Exact.
But there is more at play than just the US military I think. That is why you have dissent within the ranks and a general on Fox news leaking info (or disinfo depending on your take on it). Something is going on we are definitely not privy to. The media circus are leading us in--yeah-- circles naturally.

MH 370 threatens to expose something, reveal something to the people of the world the TPTB definitely do not want us to know. What's going down now is a desperate attempt to correct that situation before whatever there is to reveal gets revealed. It's a theory and that is all it is at this point. But to me it makes a hell of a lot more sense than what we are being led to believe.

The debris will in all likelihood turn out to be unrelated to MH 370. Then some other bone thrown to us, and it won't be in the direction of the Northern Corridor. Or maybe when they announce the debris is not from MH 370 they will also tell us the search is using up too many resources and will henceforth be scaled down... At least it is taking the minds of the world off the ever worsening GFC ha ha. TPTB must be appreciating that part of it.

edit on 21-3-2014 by Tallone because: (no reason given)

I think the general on Fox is trying to strong arm the countries not automatically predisposed to kow-towing to the US/Australia to get on board the US-led bandwagon. He said if Pakistan doesn't say something soon they'll be complicit - eg: automatically an accessory? That's "you're with us or against us" language.

I think there are distinct geopolitical problems here. Some Asian countries are not willing to roll over and play this out the US/Australia's way.

reply to post by onehuman


This is what I think....snip
Maybe, this is as good as anything else we can come up with, the Malaysian blew up their own plane. That is why they are not giving up info and just searched the pilots home yesterday.......Captian Shah was an ‘obsessive’ supporter of Ibrahim. And hours before the doomed flight left Kuala Lumpur it is understood 53-year-old Shah attended a controversial trial in which Ibrahim was jailed for five years.

Campaigners say the politician, the key challenger to Malaysia’s ruling party, was the victim of a long-running smear campaign and had faced trumped-up charges.


Police sources have confirmed that Shah was a vocal political activist – and fear that the court decision left him profoundly upset. It was against this background that, seven hours later, he took control of a Boeing 777-200 bound for Beijing and carrying 238 passengers and crew.

snip
The revelations about Zaharie’s political affiliations are highly sensitive in a country where political dirty tricks are widespread.


One of the investigation sources said: ‘We are looking into the theory that Zaharie’s political beliefs may be a factor. There are huge sensitivities surrounding this but we cannot afford not to pursue any angle brought to our attention.’


Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk... tion-leader-sodomite.html#ixzz2wDgmL1Mh
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk... tion-leader-sodomite.html#ixzz2wDdTmQ49
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Tallone

sy.gunson
reply to post by Tallone

 

INMARSAT notified Rolls Royce on 9th March (ie day after crash) that the target had flown south.

Source?

What on earth would make you think Inmarsat had the final word on this? If there was a cover-up, which is what I am talking about. It is obviously at a government level. It is involving the USA, Australia, New Zealand. Just for starters. This would be TPTB, INMARSAT is part of that.

March 9th you say. On MARCH 17th a full week after your date of notification from INMARSAT to some other major corporation - from some unknown source - the Malaysian government announced they had evidence the plane headed North. Now they are saying nothing. Bigger hands than their's are pulling the strings now.

Read:

Investigators poring over MH370’s flight data had said the plane had flown low and used “terrain masking” as it flew over the Bay of Bengal and headed north towards land, the NST reported.
...
On Saturday, Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Razak said the search for MH370 would now expand to areas beyond Thailand to Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan in the north and beyond Indonesia in the south.

This was after satellite data placed the aircraft in one of two corridors: at the north stretching from northern Thailand to Kazakhstan, or at the south, from Indonesia to the southern Indian Ocean.

The NST quoting sources said the probe would now focus on regions with disused airports equipped with long runways capable of handling a plane like the Boeing 777.

Putrajaya has briefed envoys from nearly two

SOURCE

Not all US military are onside about this. Here is Lieutenant General Tom McInerney.

MCINERNEY: It's about 3,500 miles, seven hours, 500 miles through, let's say. So -- and they went north for a part, say 3,000 miles, 3,200 miles, something like that. Of course there now appears to be evidence that there was a direct course through India flying in the shadow of a Singapore flight 68. That hasn't been verified. The only thing that I have seen that is starting to become verified is the report from Boeing saying they believe the airplane was in Pakistan, which I talked about on Friday.

What I do know is the most sensors that we have in the world are in that region. They're not in the south of the Indian Ocean. We have a lot of sensors up there so we have a lot of capabilities. And I believe with Rolls-Royce and with Boeing as well as the U.S. government, we know a lot more than is coming out. I suspect we may in the next 24 to 48 hours start hearing from either the Malaysian government or the Pakistani government. If the Pakistani government doesn't talk soon, they're going to be complicit in this.

SOURCE

You should look at the news conferences and read the PM's speeches. He never said they were just searching the Northern corridor, any news report is an interpretation of the official press conferences and will leaves things out, they also quote 'sources and 'experts'. The pakistan theory came from an unnamed source....and how is it being verified apart from people's interest in discussing it on the web?
Why is it so hard to accept that a plane may have crashed and sunk into a vast ocean? I believe some countries are with holding satellite data but probably because they don't want to reveal their capabilities. There is currently evidence that something is in the Southern search area, but we'll have to wait as the sea is rough.

reply to post by judydawg


Former Opposition Leader Anwar Ibrahim is a moderate. The current government are fairly autocratic. It's widely known that the government charges of sodomy were a beat up and that the government used them to discredit him and get him out of their way. He was causing their administration problems. I doubt that his supporters were likely to fly a plane into the sea because of his sentencing, he doesn't incite that kind of fanaticism but i guess anything's possible.

China is searching the northern corridor and have been since at least 18th of March. Guess that's why we haven't heard anything.

www.theguardian.com...

This morning i woke up and put on Sky News (UK) to catch the last little snippet of the bulletin from Kay Burley in Kuala Lumpur. I just caught her mentioning the cargo being 'Lithium-ion' batteries ! Being still half asleep/awake i did not catch the whole 'gist'? No mention has been made to this in any bulletin since ?
Now I don't know what the 'cargo' was/is but I do believe it to belong to the Freescale Co.
In my view someone, some entity, some nation somewhere did not want this plane to reach its destination !