Beijing-bound MAS plane carrying 239 people missing as of 20 mins ago.

jmaguire1977
Getting back to the Rolls Royce engine data that gets sent on the following stages:

(i) take off
(ii) cruising
(iii) other stages during cruising (event based)
(iv) landing/descending ***WHY DOES THIS DATA NOT EXIST?***

Because they monitor the motors, location data is irrelevant for that, maybe only altitude data.
More interest in thrust, rpm's vibrations/temperatures, valve positions, pressures

reply to post by puntito


The only thing we have now is time will tell.

jmaguire1977
Getting back to the Rolls Royce engine data that gets sent on the following stages:

(i) take off
(ii) cruising
(iii) other stages during cruising (event based)
(iv) landing/descending ***WHY DOES THIS DATA NOT EXIST?***

The option to actually send the data was not enabled. It is an option not purchased. What I read...

WanDash


So - in your opinion, this is not a 'ping' that relies on any kind of 'connectivity'. And, perhaps, it does not rely on an external power supply...(?) So - it may have it's own power supply, built-in... ... I wouldn't think that it's simply a shiny piece of metal that 'reflects' when encountered by the all-seeking satellite 'ping'.

The ping directly relies on connectivity. It's the only way for it to work. The plane directly connected to the satellite but there was no real data(actual bits of info) for engine/parts to relay. The plane worked as a flying loopback interface. The plane registered it was connected and capable of transmitting data but there was none to send.

Now later on when the satellite attempted the plane it was unreachable, just like when you try an address that isn't there. So the ping came back to the satellite unanswered because the host was unreachable.

roadgravel

jmaguire1977
Getting back to the Rolls Royce engine data that gets sent on the following stages:

(i) take off
(ii) cruising
(iii) other stages during cruising (event based)
(iv) landing/descending ***WHY DOES THIS DATA NOT EXIST?***

The option to actually send the data was not enabled. It is an option not purchased. What I read...

I read it somewhere as well. I didn't think that you can choose to have it or not. Thought it was standard.
I hope the guy in his office that said "Nah, we don't need to purchase that option from RR, useless, will never serve anyway " sleeps well.

Here some explanation of the Inmarsat system and pings

the network needs to know if it should continue to assign network resources to a particular terminal in case a communications link needs to be established. Not every aeronautical terminal in the world will be active simultaneously, and indeed there are quite a few that are rarely if ever used, so Inmarsat doesn’t provision resources for all terminals to be used simultaneously. However, once a given terminal are turned on, it needs to be contactable while it is inflight. So the Inmarsat network checks in with the terminal periodically (it appears to be roughly once an hour), to ensure that it should continue to be included in the list of active terminals and gets a message back to confirm that it should remain registered. These are the “satellite pings” that have shown that MH370 was still powered on and active after the ACARS messages and radar transponder were turned off, because the terminal was responding to the requests from the Inmarsat network to confirm it was still connected.

In the Indian Ocean, Inmarsat’s Classic Aero services, which are provided over both Swift64 and Aero-H/H+ terminals, operate on the Inmarsat 3F1 satellite located at 64E (equivalent to AT&T’s 3G network not its latest LTE network), and can use both the regional and global beams, but it appears that Inmarsat’s network only uses the global beam for the “pings” to maintain network registration. Otherwise it would have been possible to rule out a location in the Southern Ocean.

Key point 6: The “satellite pings” were exchanged with the Inmarsat 3F1 satellite at 64E longitude through the global beam.

So how can anyone find the position within this enormous global beam? There are two potential ways to measure the location:
1) Look at the time delay for transmission of the signal to the satellite. This would give you a range from the sub-satellite point if measured accurately enough, which would be a circle on the Earth’s surface.
2) Measure the power level of the signal as received at the satellite. The antennas on the satellite and the plane amplify the signal more at some elevation angles than others. If you know the transmission power accurately enough, and know how much power was received, you can estimate the angle it came from. This again would produce a similar range from the sub-satellite point, expressed as a circle on the Earth’s surface.

We can see that the search locations are based on exactly these curves at a given distance from the sub-satellite point. However, it is unlikely that the measurements are more accurate than within say 100 miles.

We can also see that the arcs are cut off at each end. The cutoff due east of the sub-satellite point is potentially due to the fact that the transmissions would also potentially be received by Inmarsat’s Pacific Ocean Region satellite at that point, and if they weren’t, then that region would be ruled out. Its possible that the boundaries to the north and south have been established similarly by the boundaries of Inmarsat’s Atlantic Ocean Region satellite coverage, but they may instead be based on available fuel, rather than the satellite measurements per se.

Link

reply to post by puntito

I am sure this is a security nightmare.

That's an understatement. This is security hell, no wonder the search doubled from 12 to 24 countries in the last 48 hrs or so.
I think the answer could be staring us in the face but we need to ask the right questions. Like, 'why' would 'you' want to steal a plane knowing the entire world is looking for it? There is a method to the madness, and this plan was surely thought out to the end.

Riddle me this: why would you want the world to be searching
List all the possible reasons. Distraction? Frame job? Max out resources? To induce paranoia?

reply to post by roadgravel


Well how come we have some data from the engines then?
If I recall correctly, the data is stored by a third party anyway whether purchased or not and Rolls Royce can access it and not the customer unless they pay for it.
So again my question is why do we only have data for the first half of the flight?
Surely rpms etc come into play during descent and landing?

puntito
...then they drop from the sky if they don't refuel and probably had taken another 777 departing from another site.
i see professionals at work.

Thanks puntito... I've read the entire thread to this point, and know you have some pretty potent ideas on all matters related.
When you say - "I see professionals at work" ...that surely causes one to consider another question... - "why this plane?"
Too many 'professional' antics evident for me to give much consideration to the possibility that this could have been a rash or hasty decision... (imo - not someone's desperate attempt to get away from or to...something/somewhere)
Now - 'how professional', and 'how planned'...we certainly don't know.
Was this planned months in advance - years - weeks...or, something put together under a highly-critical - "The quarry is going to be on that plane, tomorrow night...and it's our only chance to get (whatever the quarry was) it"...type operation?

I don't know these answers - can merely speculate.
And - I've seen no "authoritative facts" that keep me from looking...where they're telling us not to look.

Give it a month...

reply to post by WanDash


The sat pings are every hour and don't give a precise location, just that the status is 'live and powered' / altitude etc, so potentially refueling somewhere en route is feasible. The standard time on the ground for refueling etc is around half an hour.

There were at least 5 pings indicating 7.5 hours of travel, the exact locations and timings of pings aren't yet released.

reply to post by jmaguire1977


Reports are that RR gave the data to SITA who have the data to the Malaysian airline.

Inmarsat also gave data for the pings.

theabsolutetruth
reply to post by jmaguire1977

 

Reports are that RR gave the data to SITA who have the data to the Malaysian airline.

Inmarsat also gave data for the pings.

Thanks for that.

We are definitely only being given half of the information available if even that

reply to post by theabsolutetruth


Just throwing this out there: I read that the pings came from the plane's in-flight entertainment system. If this is true, could this system be disabled inside the plane?

I think (we know how the reports changed) the RR got engine data from the ACARS system which was later shutdown. I don't know if there is another option of what I mentioned is confused because of reporting (maybe it is nstalled).

The write up about the Inmarsat system explains that the system was checking to see if the plane was near and might use the sat system but the plane didn't because the systems that would use the connection were done. That what I get from this. Basically "are you still around so should I stay prepared for use".

FlySolo
reply to post by puntito

 

I am sure this is a security nightmare.

That's an understatement. This is security hell, no wonder the search doubled from 12 to 24 countries in the last 48 hrs or so.
I think the answer could be staring us in the face but we need to ask the right questions. Like, 'why' would 'you' want to steal a plane knowing the entire world is looking for it?

I think some people don't know how big the world actually is.
A 777 somewhere hidden is like finding one bacteria in your soup if the plane landed on an undisclosed unknown airstrip that some very rich master plotter constructed in secret. If it landed somewhere on a known airstrip, the area where it can be is suddenly not so big and they will find it quickly if it has landed.
This operation if possible can only be done in complete secrecy if you have much money and constructed this strip some years ago and hidden it somehow, so there are many odds, who has the motive to do this?
Well I told this before, if this is done by islamic terrorists, then only if some elite group thinks that Mahdi has returned, they will pay anything to help him.

reply to post by jmaguire1977


At the moment only a small amount of information is being released it appears, though perhaps this is wise given the sensitivity of the investigation and the fact the passengers and plane could have landed somewhere and it's location being investigated.

Also they probably don't want to put things out there until verified, a lot has depended on third part data etc which takes a bit of skill and time for proper assessment and there isn't much indication as to how on the ball the investigators are or how forthcoming the data from third parties is, given there are some political sensitivities behind the scenes for some countries that might not be all that cooperative about their airspace data.

theabsolutetruth
reply to post by jmaguire1977

 

At the moment only a small amount of information is being released it appears, though perhaps this is wise given the sensitivity of the investigation and the fact the passengers and plane could have landed somewhere and it's location being investigated.

Also they probably don't want to put things out there until verified, a lot has depended on third part data etc which takes a bit of skill and time for proper assessment and there isn't much indication as to how on the ball the investigators are or how forthcoming the data from third parties is, given there are some political sensitivities behind the scenes for some countries that might not be all that cooperative about their airspace data.

edit on 16-3-2014 by theabsolutetruth because: (no reason given)

The logic behind it.
Look they have one radio source emitting.
If captured by one satellite it gives you no data, unless you can measure repsonse times in terms of lightspeed measurements differences which is called radar. This is not possible with this data.
Then if you have two satellites you can find two lines, that is what happened.
If you have three satellites you have the location.
This data will get you nowhere then where they are and for more information it is a dead track, unless as I say, they can separate signal timing markers in the received data. I am a specialist here.
They got out of it what they could.

reply to post by drwill


Where did you hear that? It would need verified, presumably an entertainment system on board could have been switched off.

reply to post by puntito

So if they indeed got a third sat, then they will not tell you anything because they are on it now and looking in a confined area.
And they don't want the perpetrators to know that they are closing in.