Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

a reply to: renden

How were they all beaten to death, if out of 150-200 separatist protesters only about 40 died ??

The action of torching the building and the ensuing casualties constitute a criminal act, granted, and those involved should pay.

International Criminal Court?

I am afraid their attention would probably not apply to the young people who set fire to the Trade Unions building yesterday.

The ICC tries typically tries government leaders, military officers, insurgent leaders -- i.e. persons of authority.

If they could prove that somebody in more of a position of authority (e.g. a member of the interim government or SBU) gave such an order, their jurisdiction might apply.

But what I saw yesterday looked like a group of teenage vigilantes caught up in the mob mentality of seeking revenge. Remember, at least two people were shot and killed by pro-Russian militants beforehand.

Some, like those now notorious teenage girls who were photographed with molotov cocktails beforehand, probably had no idea of the gravity of the situation they were getting into.

It is all very sad and will no doubt be exploited to the maximum when it comes to Russia escalating with military force. But an act of genocide or war crime it was not.

Hopefully the Odessa police can do their jobs unlike yesterday and investigate so that suspects are named and a criminal prosecution ensues.

Info released by the SBU on the identities of some of those involved in the events yesterday in Odessa, photos in the article:
24tv.ua...

According to the Security Service of Ukraine , among those who organized provocations in Odessa, there are at least three citizens of the Russian Federation.

This ministry said in a statement , says " Ukrainian Truth".

"It was established that among the detainees who staged a provocation that led to clashes and mass casualties among people May 2 in Odessa, there are at least three citizens of the Russian Federation. Relevant documents are submitted to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine " , - the citizens SBU.sti Russia to events in Odessa

In particular , one of the detainees - a citizen of Mefedov Eugene I. , born in 1983 , born in Yoshkar -Ola . According to him , the father works in the Emergency Ministry . Two other detainees - a citizen of the Russian Federation Andrey Krasilnikov born in 1966 , resident of the city of Nizhny Novgorod and citizen of Zolotashko Alexander, born in 1976 . According to him , the father of fellow BB Code, who are serving in the Tyumen region Harp and lives in Nizhny Novgorod.

@PaulaSlier_RT: According to reports, at least two dead and 12 injured in #Kramatorsk.

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

From the info available before the burning of the Trade Union House, there were around 7 victims, possibly more, from the side of the pro-Ukraine rally

originally posted by: Dutzy
Info released by the SBU on the identities of some of those involved in the events yesterday in Odessa, photos in the article:
24tv.ua...

According to the Security Service of Ukraine , among those who organized provocations in Odessa, there are at least three citizens of the Russian Federation.

This ministry said in a statement , says " Ukrainian Truth".

"It was established that among the detainees who staged a provocation that led to clashes and mass casualties among people May 2 in Odessa, there are at least three citizens of the Russian Federation. Relevant documents are submitted to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine " , - the citizens SBU.sti Russia to events in Odessa

In particular , one of the detainees - a citizen of Mefedov Eugene I. , born in 1983 , born in Yoshkar -Ola . According to him , the father works in the Emergency Ministry . Two other detainees - a citizen of the Russian Federation Andrey Krasilnikov born in 1966 , resident of the city of Nizhny Novgorod and citizen of Zolotashko Alexander, born in 1976 . According to him , the father of fellow BB Code, who are serving in the Tyumen region Harp and lives in Nizhny Novgorod.

If this can be verified, it is a very important part of the story.

(The professionalism of the SBU so far has been less than impressive.)

If Russian nationals in their mid 30s traveling all the way south to Odessa to participate in riots is not the definition of outside agitation, I do not know what is.

originally posted by: Dutzy
a reply to: ALoveSupreme

From the info available before the burning of the Trade Union House, there were around 7 victims, possibly more, from the side of the pro-Ukraine rally

Makes sense in the chaos of the situation, with a fire going on.

What a terrible way for any human to die.

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

If I make a parallel with the Romanian counterintelligence/security service, the SRI, it is possible that their role is more on the side of gathering intelligence, analyzing it and passing the relevant informations to the authorities that can act on those informations, prosecutors office, police, MIA and so on, without actual jurisdiction for taking action on those informations, probably apart from very serious cases.

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

Those people died before the separatists were rounded up, in lack of a better word, in the Trade Union House.
Some of them died hours earlier. I myself saw one of the casualties, a young man shot at around 4-5 pm and the the burning took place around nightfall.

originally posted by: Dutzy
a reply to: ALoveSupreme

If I make a parallel with the Romanian counterintelligence/security service, the SRI, it is possible that their role is more on the side of gathering intelligence, analyzing it and passing the relevant informations to the authorities that can act on those informations, prosecutors office, police, MIA and so on, without actual jurisdiction for taking action on those informations, probably apart from very serious cases.

I understand what you are saying about SBU's mainly investigating and analysis role. But the SBU definitely has spetsnaz units, namely their Alfa units, which were initially formed out of the Soviet Union's Spetsgruppa "A" when Ukraine became independent. These SBU units were reportedly involved with the suppression of the Euromaidan back in January if you'll remember.

Ukrainian Security Service chief says Alfa special unit crushed Kiev protests

Many veterans from the SBU Alfa units work security here for corporate interests in Dubai, including our hotel's former chief of security.

From the Donestk Regional State Admin press release on anti-terro op in Kramatorsk, reported by Ukrinform:
www.ukrinform.ua...

ATO in Kramatorske: Kill 6 people

During the anti-terrorist operation in Kramatorske six people were killed, another 15 were in hospital with gunshot wounds.

This is the website of Donetsk Regional State Administration.

"As of 19:00 Saturday, May 3, during the antiterrorist operation in Kramatorske died from gunshot wounds six people. Yet 15 with gunshot wounds brought to medical facilities in the city", - the press-service.

originally posted by: ALoveSupreme
More inflammatory Russian rhetoric, this time from Putin's press secretary:

Russia will not be able to persuade people in southeast of Ukraine to lay down arms
After the tragic events in Odessa, it will be factually impossible for Russia and any other country to persuade people in the southeast of Ukraine to lay down arms, because there is a direct threat to their lives, Russian president’s press secretary Dmitry Peskov told journalists.

en.itar-tass.com...

How wonderful that this seals the deal for Russia!

No way that pro-Russians could possibly lay down their arms now.

Because everybody in the East is obviously equivalent to masked agitators firing guns into crowds of youths.

I just came across your post just now.


. . . Allow me to interupt your circle argument.


A fellow ATS member Cosmonova pointed out a few pages back, Russia WARNED against this assault operation & it's repercussions.

Ahem:

"The crooks in Kiev do not understand that everything they are doing will boomerang on them personally. A war against one’s own people has never done any good. We think they must be put on trial,"

"They still do not understand that all this will bring about resistance ten times stronger than now. The killing of peaceful people must not be forgiven no matter what goals are pursued. They must come to their senses," Aksyonov said.

Konstantinov echoed him by saying that a resumption of the army operation in the south-eastern regions of Ukraine "will be the last attack of the Kiev authorities. They touch one person and get a response ten times bigger."

Source

This time in between assaults are only allowing what has happened to 'Fester' and to build anti-Kiev sentiment, imo.


Especially the Odessa incident.

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

I know of their Alpha special units, but seeing as how they are involved in the ATO in E Ukraine and I don't have a clear image with regard to jurisdictions, when and how they are to be deployed, against what kind of threat, I refrain at moment from judging the SBU's efficiency...

That was my actual line of thinking when comparing them to the Romanian service, sorry if sometimes I don't adequately express myself and put out a clear and concise opinion/idea...

Live stream: pro-Kremlin forces storming Ukrainian military base in Luhansk

Douglas HerbertVerified account ‏@dougf24

BREAKING : Mob of 5000 Separatists seized control of Security Services HQ in #Donetsk half an hour ago. #Ukraine pic.twitter.com/AmIgOI1utq

originally posted by: SurrenderingAmerica

originally posted by: ALoveSupreme
More inflammatory Russian rhetoric, this time from Putin's press secretary:

Russia will not be able to persuade people in southeast of Ukraine to lay down arms
After the tragic events in Odessa, it will be factually impossible for Russia and any other country to persuade people in the southeast of Ukraine to lay down arms, because there is a direct threat to their lives, Russian president’s press secretary Dmitry Peskov told journalists.

en.itar-tass.com...

How wonderful that this seals the deal for Russia!

No way that pro-Russians could possibly lay down their arms now.

Because everybody in the East is obviously equivalent to masked agitators firing guns into crowds of youths.

I just came across your post just now.


. . . Allow me to interupt your circle argument.


A fellow ATS member Cosmonova pointed out a few pages back, Russia WARNED against this assault operation & it's repercussions.

Ahem:

"The crooks in Kiev do not understand that everything they are doing will boomerang on them personally. A war against one’s own people has never done any good. We think they must be put on trial,"

"They still do not understand that all this will bring about resistance ten times stronger than now. The killing of peaceful people must not be forgiven no matter what goals are pursued. They must come to their senses," Aksyonov said.

Konstantinov echoed him by saying that a resumption of the army operation in the south-eastern regions of Ukraine "will be the last attack of the Kiev authorities. They touch one person and get a response ten times bigger."

Source

This time in between assaults are only allowing what has happened to 'Fester' and to build anti-Kiev sentiment, imo.


Especially the Odessa incident.

Thank you for the absurd quotes.

'The killing of peaceful people' ???

That is such an Orwellian distortion of the truth from what we all witnessed live yesterday that I hardly know where to begin!

If masked men firing guns into crowds of teenagers is the definition of 'peaceful people' then I am mistaken.

I am afraid your claim that my argument is 'circular' is much more than an acute case of the 'kettle calling the pots black'. It is intellectually dishonest.

If you think months of sending in outside agitators, literally foreign citizens of Russia , to take over buildings in regions that do not support secession, beat up and shoot at unarmed protestors, and commandeer local media, is not a good way to finally get a violent response from pro Ukrainian factions, then you are just beyond reason.

It is no use discussing any of these events with you.

Another stream from Luhansk:
www.ustream.tv...

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

You can spin it however you want, don't matter to me one way or another.

The fact is that there were innocent civilians that were killed during this assault.

I'm simply pointing out your biased inaccuracies in your statement..



Don't be upset my friend.

originally posted by: SurrenderingAmerica
a reply to: ALoveSupreme

You can spin it however you want, don't matter to me one way or another.

The fact is that there were innocent civilians that were killed during this assault.

I'm simply pointing out your biased inaccuracies in your statement..



Don't be upset my friend.

I am not your friend, dear.

It seems both streams from Luhansk are off-air now, just as an ambulance had arrived at the scene...