Atheists? Have you been feeling a bit "agnostic" lately?

reply to post by windword

Please define what you mean by God.

This is an "Equal Opportunity" discussion. PLEASE, FEEL FREE to build, and worship, your own "God". ALL DEITIES, AND BELIEVERS, WILL BE ACCEPTED! When you're done, please answer the following questions. Please note that they have been custom tailored, to accommodate your "special needs":

1) Do you feel that any deity (If need be, kindly use your own, specifically selected, edition) IS REAL?

2) Do you feel that any deity (If need be, kindly use your own, specifically selected, edition.) IS NOT REAL?

If you're not willing to answer both questions, kindly explain why.

God has many definition and means many things to different people.

Why does that seem to confuse you?

To an "agnostic", none of that would matter.

Thanks for participating in this experiment! I'm looking forward to reading your comments.

See ya buddy,
Milt

reply to post by BenReclused


1. No.

2. Yes, to all.

reply to post by Skyfloating

Imagine what a waste of time it were to be so deeply preoccupied with something that doesn't exist.

It's not a waste of time at all. The actual existence of god holds no relevance to discussing the ramifications of religious belief. Anyways. Whatever you're driving at is obviously not the topic. What do you want to hear? I believe in and love god? You sure seem to have a preoccupation with that idea in this thread.

reply to post by BenReclused

However, as an agnostic, I have neither belief, nor disbelief, in the possible existence of God.

How do you possess neither belief nor disbelief in the possibility. That makes no sense. To me anyways.

You recall when I asked if you believed it was impossible Ma'at existed and you said 'No'. That is expressing a belief in the possibility of a god. How does that reconcile with your quote above?

You also said you didn't believe Ma'at existed. Remember that as well?

Put them together and your position is you don't believe Ma'at exists but you believe it's possible Ma'at exists.

My position is that I don't believe god(s) exist but I acknowledge it's possible since I cannot know with certainty things that exist outside of nature [in the event they do].

An atheist, on the other hand, and at the least, would have a personal disbelief regarding God's existence.

Yeah...

Even as a personal expression, disbelief is, ALWAYS, the rejection of a belief.

Not sure if I understand this correctly but...

You have already demonstrated yourself you can disbelieve in the existence and not reject the possibility.

In truth, atheist's only possess a "half-assed" version of "a lack of belief", that only addresses one possibility, and completely ignores the other one.

What's being ignored?

At best, an "agnostic atheist" can, ONLY, be a "half-assed" agnostic.

What?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

1. No.

2. Yes, to all.

Thank you, very much. Your sincerity didn't go unnoticed, so I gave you a star for it.

Questions for ALL participants:

1) Do you feel that any deity (If need be, kindly use your own, specifically selected, edition) IS REAL?

2) Do you feel that any deity (If need be, kindly use your own, specifically selected, edition.) IS NOT REAL?

The questions above, are the one's that "AfterInfinity's" answers, are in reference to:
Do you feel that answering #2 with, "Yes, to all" should preclude one from calling themselves an "agnostic"?

Do you feel that answering #2 with, "No, to all" should preclude one from calling themselves an "atheist"?

My answer to both questions is "Yes!"

Question for "Lucid Lunacy" (Or, anyone else, for that matter.):
Can you explain why I might be wrong?

See ya buddy,
Milt

reply to post by BenReclused

Question for "Lucid Lunacy" (Or, anyone else, for that matter.):
Can you explain why I might be wrong?

I already have. Multiple times. In this thread and the previous one. By that I mean with explanations and not just saying "you're wrong". What more can I do? Instead of asking me again why don't you address the posts I have already offered in this thread.

This thread is far too based in atheism vs. god 101. There are gray areas to most all of these questions and without a description of what we are calling 'god' then we will get nowhere. Waste.

reply to post by okrian


This thread is a result of the OP claiming one cannot be an agnostic atheist.

You know a person who doesn't believe in deities but at the same time doesn't claim to be such an authority on the subject to claim deities can't exist.


To borrow from LL.


It is the same as me saying I don't believe there are aliens flying around our solar system, but I don't claim to know for sure.


This entire thread is some kind of attempt to say that agnostic atheists don't exist, but it seems to be a failed attempt.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

By that I mean with explanations and not just saying "you're wrong".

Yes indeed! You dished out lots, and lots, of explanations. And lots, and lots, of "you're wrongs". Unfortunately, it seems, you lack the integrity to answer any questions. Instead, you prefer to preach...

Way to go "Teach"...

The truth is, you haven't listened enough to know that I'm wrong. If you think that I'm wrong, put your "big boy" pants on, and prove it.

What more can I do?

Answer the following question, without bitching about it:

2) Do you feel that any deity (If need be, kindly use your own, specifically selected, edition.) IS NOT REAL?

The question above, defines the borderline between "atheism", and "agnosticism". If you feel that I'm wrong, explain why. And please, do so in your own words.

Instead of asking me again why don't you address the posts I have already offered in this thread.

Well, your immanency, I'm heading that way. I, only, wanted to address a few of the "REAL" participants first. Please forgive me... both my time, and my vision, fall far short of what I wish they could be...

I'd like to start with one that addresses the OP. Can you provide a link to one that might qualify?

See ya buddy,
Milt

reply to post by BenReclused

Why does that seem to confuse you?

To an "agnostic", none of that would matter.

Well, I'm not agnostic. But I don't believe in "gods" or a "god" by most definitions either.

1) Do you feel that any deity (If need be, kindly use your own, specifically selected, edition) IS REAL?

2) Do you feel that any deity (If need be, kindly use your own, specifically selected, edition.) IS NOT REAL?

What's a deity? It is an entity that's better than me? More advance, more spiritually adept, bigger, stronger of mind, body and soul? Sure, I believe in them. Are deities "GOD" Nope, not in my opinion.

reply to post by Grimpachi

This thread is a result of the OP claiming one cannot be an agnostic atheist.

That comment, is the result of, yet, ANOTHER atheist, who seems to lack the integrity to be honest.

Do you feel that I am threatening your beliefs, or something?

This is the ORIGINAL CLAIM from the OP:

I say that it's impossible for atheists, and theists alike, to be agnostic, at the same time.

See ya buddy,
Milt

There is no god.

I don't know if there is no truth to everything related to spirituality though.

I just know that there is no man behind the wheel driving our existence. Living has made that quite evident to me.

reply to post by BenReclused

I'd like to start with one that addresses the OP. Can you provide a link to one that might qualify?

Really? You don't know which of my posts address the OP? Heh.

I, only, wanted to address a few of the "REAL" participants first.

So I am not a real participant to you.

That explains a lot actually.

So I guess when you said you were ESPECIALLY happy to see me join and meant it with the UTMOST sincerity, you were downright lying.

Are you lying about anything else we should know about?

reply to post by BenReclused


I know that is what you claim but no matter how many times you say it, it does not make it right.

I gave you the definition before in the other thread but I will give it to you again here.

Agnostic atheism

Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact. The agnostic atheist may be contrasted with the agnostic theist, who believes that one or more deities exist but claims that the existence or nonexistence of such is unknown or cannot be known.

Here is Urban dictionary if you are having a hard time understanding.

Agnostic Atheist

A person who holds the view that the existence of a deity cannot be proven nor disproven, but personally leans towards the idea of there not being one. In this case, agnostic is an adjective. "Atheist" has to do with belief, and "agnostic" has to do with knowledge. Two completely different animals, but can be applied to each other. Basically, a person who doesn't know and doesn't believe.

Guy: So what are your religious views?
Agnostic atheist: I'm an agnostic.
Guy: So you're just a pussy atheist?
Agnostic atheist: No, you idiot. I'm an atheist, too. I'm an atheistic agnostic, or an agnostic atheist.
Guy: Huh??

Here is the dictionary definition.

Agnostic Atheist - Dictionary Definition

Definition: An agnostic atheist is defined as one who does not know for sure if any gods exist or not but who also does not believe in any gods. This definition makes it clear that being an agnostic and being an atheist are not mutually exclusive. Knowledge and belief are related but separate issues: not knowing if something is true or not doesn't exclude believing or disbelieving it.
Agnostic atheist can often be treated as synonymous with weak atheist. Whereas weak atheist emphasizes one's lack of belief in gods, agnostic atheist emphasizes that one does not make any knowledge claims — and usually, the lack of knowledge is an important part of the foundation for the lack of belief. Agnostic atheist is arguably a label which applies to most atheists in the West today.

Examples:
The agnostic atheist maintains that any supernatural realm is inherently unknowable by the human mind, but this agnostic suspends his judgment one step further back. For the agnostic atheist, not only is the nature of any supernatural being unknowable, but the existence of any supernatural being is unknowable as well.

We cannot have knowledge of the unknowable; therefore, concludes this agnostic, we cannot have knowledge of god’s existence. Bvariety of agnostic does not subscribe to theistic belief, he qualifies as a kind of atheist.

If you can explain what it is that you do not understand maybe I can help you comprehend what it is that you are missing but if you are just going to claim it cannot be and hold stubbornly to your beliefs then that is fine as well as far as I am concerned however if you ever claim that out in public and people look at you strange don't be surprised.

reply to post by BenReclused

Here is another Huxley quote:

"That it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can provide evidence which logically justifies that certainty. This is what agnosticism asserts and in my opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism." ~Huxley

All that is essential to agnosticism. That's it. It has to do with the certainty of the proposition.

If someone lacks belief in the existence of god(s) they are atheist by definition. If that person is saying they don't know with objective certainty god doesn't exist then it is agnostic.

So now why would they not be joined together as 'agnostic atheist'?

If they can't be conjoined that would imply one has to know with absolute certainty something is not true before they can disbelieve in it. That's not the case. People disbelieve in things all the time without absolute certainty.

I don't see how anything could exist that is sentient, but doesnt reproduce. Life doesnt present in a singular form.

That said, if the being that is considered "God" exists, then he/she/it is not the only one.

If there is more than one, then are they still gods, or just a race of highly evolved aliens?

BenReclused
This is the ORIGINAL CLAIM from the OP:
I say that it's impossible for atheists, and theists alike, to be agnostic, at the same time.

Not if you use the word as an adjective to modify a persons stance on the matter from one of absolute certainty to one of uncertainty.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

You see them as incompatible because you are misunderstanding agnosticism.

Prove it.

Agnosticism is not a middle ground.

Prove it.

It's not a belief god exists %50. Or that god doesn't exist %50.

You are correct! Agnosticism is 0% of a belief that God exists, AND, 0% of a belief that God does not exist. Without that second "0%", there would only be atheists, and theists.

All agnosticism is functionally saying is that the proposition cannot be claimed as absolutely true one way or another as it is unknowable and unprovable.

Nonsense! Agnosticism doesn't say damn thing!

If it weren't for the bloviating of huxters, such as yourself, and Mr. Huxley, damn near everyone would understand that agnosticism is nothing more than "common sense".

Here's the entire "doctrine of philosophy", of the First Church of Agnostic Followers, in a nutshell:
Don't believe what you can't confirm.

Take that, and suck on it for while.

Here's an optional question for you:
Do you still wear your WWHD (What Would Huxley Do) bracelet?

Well, that's enough for now. I'm tired, and I need to go to bed. I truly am sorry that I was only able to address the first four lines of your post. Unfortunately, I had an awful lot to say, and it took me quite a while to put it in a "nutshell". I sincerely hope that you can appreciate my intended effort to address your each and every concern... and my promise that you are now my primary concern...

I'll make certain that I get back to you ASAP... I enjoyed that...

See ya buddy,
Milt

PS:
I am looking forward to your next response, and, once again, thank you very much for your participation.

reply to post by daskakik

Not if you use the word as an adjective to modify a persons stance on the matter from one of absolute certainty to one of uncertainty.

Agnosticism IS ABSOLUTE UNCERTAINTY: No beliefs for, nor against

It's the zero point from which all belief, and disbelief grow.

Thanks for your comment.

See ya buddy,
Milt

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


I guess my reply on the first page isn't considered to be real participating either to the OP.
IMO he misses a couple of questions like:

If you would believe a deity is real do you believe that deity is top notch in the grand scheme of exsistance?

If a deity makes us aware of him/her/it being our creator I would file a complain by his/hers/its rules duhuh