Russian helicopters heading to Sevastopol, Ukraine

sosobad
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Again read what I am saying, I said that the strikes were sure to happen and didn't, not that they are the same. My god

No I got it... In this case you have Russian forces inside Ukraine. So the last minute possibility of this being stopped is no longer a possibility.

reply to post by Xcathdra


So why twist what I said? Can't mention America without your knee jerk reaction?

Edit They are NEAR the boarder.....

sosobad
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

So why twist what I said? Can't mention America without your knee jerk reaction?

Do what?

I stated Obama used the language he did because if he used the direct language he would have to admit he has used the very tactic he is denouncing Russia for.

Or is there another post you have an issue with?

Xcathdra

sosobad
There is every possibility that Russia could turn around and go home, remember when everyone said that the US would strike Syria, it was a certainty that was stopped at the last minute and this could be too. As for others calling it an invasion so far, your own President says that they are near Ukraine not in it.....

www.wptv.com...

There is a difference between airstrikes and sending in ground units. One suggests limited involvement while the other suggests long term occupation.

As for Obama - that position is crap. The only reason he has said that is because going the other way would require Obama to admit he uses the very tactics he is trying to denounce.

That is implying that I am comparing it in a way that I am not, dirty tactic, same as comparing Putin to Hitler, shame on you

Xcathdra
My point though was its not like this is something that happened over night, surprising ethnic Russians living in a foreign country. They did not just wake up this last week and realize they were living in Ukraine. Since 1995 what have Eastern Ukraine / Crimea done to resolve what they feel is a problem?

Crimea has been on the path to independence since. And, for the most part, it has been peaceful and respected by all outside parties.

Developing Democracies are dangerous in the sense that people think they can use the system, and then disregard the system when they did not get their way. They also scream persecution, not because they are being unfairly targeted / restricted, but because they feel their mindset is best, and everyone should be required to accept it and live under it.

Absolutely! Unfortunately, the persons screaming persecution, at this point, are the Ukrainians. I don't think the Ukrainian government realized just how much Crimea had aligned, ideologically, with Russia until the immediate questions of separation arose during this crisis.

How they misinterpreted the past 5-6 years (Ukraine) is beyond me.

Could it be promises from outside sources running their own agendas and making promises that most likely cant be kept if successful?

Very well could be, but that is outside of my scope of personal understanding. I just couldn't even begin to negotiate a deal with the people that kicked me from my home. It does sound plausible, but I think the outside 'force' was the poor treatment most Tartar's received from the nations the fled too.

So we don't really know why it remained the way it did until today?

Personally, no, I don't know. Things were pretty calm until the anti-Ukraine protests in 2009.

here is my next question on the vote - Who is eligible to vote? Is the voting restricted to only the Crimea region or the entire country?

Should all Ukrainian citizens be able to vote since the result of that vote could have significant changes on the country as a whole?

Speaking from experience (Quebec), as long as all Crimean's are eligible (which is the current stance), I am willing to accept their decision.

i know it's thin but the report phone and data line cut in the area are mostly false !.

Fact webcam at Savastopol are still runing !

www.coolwebcams.net...

sosobad

Xcathdra

sosobad
There is every possibility that Russia could turn around and go home, remember when everyone said that the US would strike Syria, it was a certainty that was stopped at the last minute and this could be too. As for others calling it an invasion so far, your own President says that they are near Ukraine not in it.....

www.wptv.com...

There is a difference between airstrikes and sending in ground units. One suggests limited involvement while the other suggests long term occupation.

As for Obama - that position is crap. The only reason he has said that is because going the other way would require Obama to admit he uses the very tactics he is trying to denounce.

That is implying that I am comparing it in a way that I am not, dirty tactic, same as comparing Putin to Hitler, shame on you

edit on 28-2-2014 by sosobad because: (no reason given)

No its a comparison I used towards your logic.

Its not a dirty tactic, its me telling you how your comment / logic came across.

The comparison between Hitler and putin is very much relevant based on the argument some are making in this thread, specifically the use of overwhelming force against any nation that tries to assist Ukraine, in addition to suggesting that we should just appease Russia to deter them from attacking anyone else.

All strategies used / resulted in WWII.

The comparison is valid. Shame on you for trying to dismiss the comparisons.

thesaneone
Agreed, things are going to get tense very fast.
Do we know if U.S is going to restart the missile defense system around that area?

Pretty much what Xcathdra said, but I am sure NATO has some land based systems that the public is not aware of. ~$heopleNation

From what I've heard from family friends in the past decade or so and from the people I've personally met from Kiev (my parents were both born in Ukraine), it seems many, many present-day Ukrainians in Kiev and probably other regions are pretty much Russian anyway. They act Russian, think Russian, speak Russian, and feel that they would be better off as part of Russia.

Betcha the ousted pres and Putin were thick as thieves in more ways than one. Sure is beginning to seem more and more like it. There's probably so much more to this that we're seeing so far and more than we'll ever really know for sure.

reply to post by Xcathdra


So you are an idiot? That could be the only reason left for you twisting what I said and responding the way you did. Your President says they are near the boarder and you say no, so you must be in the Ukraine, are you? Or are you full of #? And yes bringing Hitler into an argument is a sure fire way of someone grasping I posted this already and you ignored it so I'll post it again for you

Godwin's Law

Guyfriday
I don't believe that the issue would be Bolsheviks, but rather Putin using Cossacks to fight this. Cossacks have an attachment to Kiev, and have been pandering about regaining land from Russia. If the Cossacks win = Russia looks good, if the Cossacks lose = Putin doesn't have to deal with them again.

That's my issue. I worry that Putin might use this as a tool to get the Cossacks off his back, and if he regains some USSR land, then so be it.

Well it has been said that Putin is more of a Czarist. However I would bet he takes some orders from old school Bolsheviks behind the scenes.

I don't see Putin as more intelligent then other world leaders, but he is very KGB in his underhandedness.

That he is. ~$heopleNation

peck420
Crimea has been on the path to independence since. And, for the most part, it has been peaceful and respected by all outside parties.

Then why did Russia send troops in when they are not required or requested? Even the ousted President has stated he is not requesting Russian military intervention, yet there they are.

peck420
Absolutely! Unfortunately, the persons screaming persecution, at this point, are the Ukrainians. I don't think the Ukrainian government realized just how much Crimea had aligned, ideologically, with Russia until the immediate questions of separation arose during this crisis.

How they misinterpreted the past 5-6 years (Ukraine) is beyond me.

At the same time Crimea is a part of Ukraine, and to ignore that fact undermines the position of the people in that area / rest of Ukraine does it not?

peck420
Very well could be, but that is outside of my scope of personal understanding. I just couldn't even begin to negotiate a deal with the people that kicked me from my home. It does sound plausible, but I think the outside 'force' was the poor treatment most Tartar's received from the nations the fled too.

Fair enough - For this comparison we can look at what Ukraine was doing when this issue started at the end of 2013. The EU and Russia offered deals to the Ukrainian government. The president went with Russia, and people got upset in Ukraine. What did Russia offer / promise in order to sway the Ukrainian President to choose Russia?

peck420
Personally, no, I don't know. Things were pretty calm until the anti-Ukraine protests in 2009.

ok

peck420
Speaking from experience (Quebec), as long as all Crimean's are eligible (which is the current stance), I am willing to accept their decision.

What about the rest? Quebec wishes to leave the Dominion of Canada and be their own nation. What of the people living in Quebec who don't agree with it? Also, what about Canada as a whole? Do all Canadians get to participate in a vote that would fundamentally alter Canada as a whole?

Is it "fair" to allow a vote that would break up a nation based solely on a population that knew full well the country they were living in is not Russia? Would it be fair for American Citizens to living in Taiwan to demand a vote in order fotr the area they live in to leave Taiwan and become a part of the US / A separate nation?

They knew full well they were no longer living in the US, and as such are subject to the laws of the country they are in.

Would it be ok if NATO / West invaded Dagestan / Chechnya to "protect" or "liberate" those groups who don't want to be controlled by Russia?

sosobad

So you are an idiot?

Actually no, I am not. and if its all the same could you possibly refrain from the name calling. I get this topic is heated, but there is no need for that type of name calling ok.

sosobad
That could be the only reason left for you twisting what I said and responding the way you did. Your President says they are near the boarder and you say no, so you must be in the Ukraine, are you? Or are you full of #? And yes bringing Hitler into an argument is a sure fire way of someone grasping I posted this already and you ignored it so I'll post it again for you

Godwin's Law

Re-read my posts then come back because apparently you failed to understand what I types.

And yes, drawing a comparison between Hitler and Putin is very much appropriate since people in this thread are advocating the vary positions that resulted in WWII in the first place. Namely appeasement coupled with Hitler making public promises he wont be invading any other countries.

yet Hitler did...
he went into the Studentland because of the German background in the area.

Putin stated he would not send military units into Ukraine, yet he did.
Putin stated the issues in Ukraine are internal, yet he intervened.
The argument people are using to justify Russian actions is the large ethnic Russian population in Crimea. Granted, they aren't Germans however I don't see why you are ignoring the blatantly obvious correlation?

History is your friend, and ignoring it because you don't care for the parallel doesn't make the argument invalid.

Putin is a scumbag. Invading and taking the airports with unmarked troops is violating the Geneva convention, especially when they can only be Russian as they are coming from 30 Russian choppers, especially ones that flew in from the east. He is playing the same Georgia card so Obama has the ace if he chooses to do something about it other that talk cheap and then leave to go play golf again.

reply to post by SheopleNation


Putin is nostalgic when it comes to the former Soviet Union. This is no more apparent than reactivating cold war bases, returning back to probing airspace of foreign nations, ports of calls in the western hemisphere for the Russian Navy.

Hell Putin was the one who got rid of the Russian National Anthem and reinstated the old Soviet Anthem with changes to the lyrics. Everything Putin has done screams days of the cold war.

I think Putin is one of those people who is so set in his ways that he is not able to function in a modern world. instead he prefers to recreate the past regardless of the cost.

Xcathdra
Then why did Russia send troops in when they are not required or requested? Even the ousted President has stated he is not requesting Russian military intervention, yet there they are.

I don't know. I do know that the Tartars are not impressed by it at all, but, they have remained peaceful about it.

At the same time Crimea is a part of Ukraine, and to ignore that fact undermines the position of the people in that area / rest of Ukraine does it not?

See below (about Quebec).

Fair enough - For this comparison we can look at what Ukraine was doing when this issue started at the end of 2013. The EU and Russia offered deals to the Ukrainian government. The president went with Russia, and people got upset in Ukraine. What did Russia offer / promise in order to sway the Ukrainian President to choose Russia?

It's not really what the Russians offered so much as the strings attached to the EU offer that decided it. I don't know if the average Ukrainian fully understands what is going to happen to them with the EU offer.

What about the rest? Quebec wishes to leave the Dominion of Canada and be their own nation. What of the people living in Quebec who don't agree with it? Also, what about Canada as a whole? Do all Canadians get to participate in a vote that would fundamentally alter Canada as a whole?

Is it "fair" to allow a vote that would break up a nation based solely on a population that knew full well the country they were living in is not Russia? Would it be fair for American Citizens to living in Taiwan to demand a vote in order fotr the area they live in to leave Taiwan and become a part of the US / A separate nation?

They knew full well they were no longer living in the US, and as such are subject to the laws of the country they are in.

It is extremely hard to describe. As an Albertan, I was extremely dismayed to see Quebec hold the referendum, but I did understand that it was their choice to make. Would have been fair to the rest of Canada (or Ukraine in regards to Crimea)? Not really. It's just one of those things that you accept and move with? Maybe it is because these issues didn't really 'arise' so much as have 'always been there' sort of deal.

To be honest, I don't even know if I understand enough about how I felt during Quebec's referendum to competently explain it.

Would it be ok if NATO / West invaded Dagestan / Chechnya to "protect" or "liberate" those groups who don't want to be controlled by Russia?

I don't think so, much like I don't think Russia entering Crimea is going to produce the result that Russia thinks it will. I do sincerely hope that Russia will back down if the Crimeans ask them too.

I got this off twitter a few minutes ago .. Are these Main Battle tanks?

They look a bit small for that.. but i don't know

Send a U.S. Naval battle group into the Black Sea as Regan did. That will pucker Putin and send the right message. Will Obama do that? I highly doubt it. I would expect Germany and Poland to flex some muscle first. Maybe Turkey will feel threatened.

reply to post by rigel4


Worse. Mobile Howitzers. He is going to challenge Ukraine.

I've been trying to follow things in Ukraine closely for about a week now and this thread has been my up to date spot today. Is there any new news? Last I heard choppers were heading in and a column of troops had pushed out of the naval base. Any new developments or word from Russia or the opposition and its backers?