I can't charge $20 for a Happy Meal

originally posted by: Threadbarer

You're so close and you don't even know it. You act like the wages of the average worker and the executives have kept pace. But that's not true.

I keep repeating this and it seems everyone with your view just doesn't get it.

What makes one man rich is peanuts among the masses. You all are stuck in some hate-the-rich bubble, and you just need to get over it. What the rich do has very little to nothing to impact to your life and how well or poor you end up. I did the math many times. If Boeing execs said, we are going to put 50 million of our money into the paychecks of each worker it would only be an 11c an hour raise. If Bezos said he was going to sell 5 billion per year of his stock and give it to the employees, it would be 1.50 dollars an hour raise. If they taxed that 1%ers 90% it would give the government only an extra 13% of spending capabilities.

My point is that what you and many others think would pay for everyone by gouging the rich for all we could really mean very little in the end.

Wages stagnated under Reagan and nothing has really changed on that front. Meanwhile, the upper class has seen their wages tick up significantly. Nearly 50 years and the middle and lower classes haven't seen a bump in their pay. How do you not think that's insane?

No bump? In 1984 I made 8,000 for the year, in 2004 I was making about 55,000. I finally hit 100,000+ in 2010, so what are you talking about?

If you think trickle down works, point out one year since 1980 where wealth growth in the lower and middle classes has outpaced that of the upper class.

There is no economic process called trickle-down, so you might as well stop using it. Most rich do not make their money by hourly or salary wage. Musk has no salary, so his worth is only stock, so how do you compare things that are totally different?

If you work for someone as an A/C repair person and worked for that company for 5 years, then started their own company and grow it to having 40 workers how do you compare all that person's responsibilities and costs to one of their workers who just goes to work and fixes A/Cs hoping the owner is successful enough that his job is steady.

You also have not explained what a living wage is, so I think it is just some trigger word you all use.

Speaks for itself.

originally posted by: Threadbarer
Since 1978, CEO wages have raised 1200%. In comparison, the average worker wage has raised 15%. But do go on about how the average worker is wrong for asking for a wage that keeps up with inflation.

Going to need your data. And of course only the dates related to fast food franchises.

originally posted by: Dandandat3
The California political class appear to be targeting fast food franchises in order to put them out of business.

So they're trying to put up the minimum wage to $20 an hour, which is still $2 less than Denmark. Plus the Danish get 6 weeks paid vacation.

Price wise you'd pay the same for a Big Mac Meal on average.

McDonalds generate over $25 billion worth of revenue each year.
They can afford to pay their staff MORE.

a reply to: Xtrozero

What the rich do has very little to nothing to impact to your life and how well or poor you end up. I did the math many times. If Boeing execs said, we are going to put 50 million of our money into the paychecks of each worker it would only be an 11c an hour raise. If Bezos said he was going to sell 5 billion per year of his stock and give it to the employees, it would be 1.50 dollars an hour raise. If they taxed that 1%ers 90% it would give the government only an extra 13% of spending capabilities.

I want to see the actual math on that. Pardon me if I don't take your word for it. But beside that, it sounds like a excuse as to why, billionaires should be billionaires, and the people making them billionaires, shouldn't ask for a dime more than what they get.

originally posted by: Djehuty

McDonalds generate over $25 billion worth of revenue each year.
They can afford to pay their staff MORE.

How does that even make sense? Each McD fast food is individually owned. Where HQ McD makes their money is selling their food/supplies to the franchises. HQ McD doesn't give a crap about the minimum wage.

Now if you own one then you will go out of business unless you raise your prices, cut employees, put most on part-time so no benefits need to be paid, and get Kiosks as tellers. Is that what you like as an end game here?

The Dutch also paid huge taxes, but their model wouldn't work here as they live minimalist lifestyles and Americans live a consumer lifestyle.

originally posted by: Djehuty

originally posted by: Dandandat3
The California political class appear to be targeting fast food franchises in order to put them out of business.

So they're trying to put up the minimum wage to $20 an hour, which is still $2 less than Denmark. Plus the Danish get 6 weeks paid vacation.

Price wise you'd pay the same for a Big Mac Meal on average.

McDonalds generate over $25 billion worth of revenue each year.
They can afford to pay their staff MORE.

The odd implications of this new law aren't about the $20 price point.

The interesting facts are that they aren't raising the minimum wage to $20 across the board for all minimum wage workers; the law only targets the fast food industry. Why?

Further, the politicians who put this law onto place, by targeting fast food only, are exempting themselves so that they don't have to pay their café and restaurant employees a $20 minimum wage. Giving their food related business an advantage. Even if we want to pretend a restaurant is some how different from a fast food restaurant and deserving of paying their employees less ... within the fast food market the politicians carved out an exemption for a particular fast foood restaurant, stating that because this particular fast food restaurant "makes bread" they should be exempt. why? ... because the owner is a big political donor to the Governor. It wasn't until this franchise owner and the Governor were named and shamed did they agree to also pay their current workers $20 an hour, but they are still exempt under the law and can go back to the lower wage once the heat dies down.

As for the billion dollar industry that can "afford" to pay the workers more ... the fast food industry predominantly is structured through small business franchise models. The minimum wage workers do not work directly for the corporatios that make the billions each year. They work for a small business that has to license with the corporation. Because of that disconnect the billion dollar corporation has no direct reason to lower their licensing fees for the small business owner; they just squeeze the small business owner at the same time the government is squeezing from the other side.

The result of these contorted laws isn't a market were everyone will enjoy a $20 "living wage"; instead the small business owners will be left to find creative ways to satisfy both the government and the billions dollar corporation with all the leverage. The only way to do that is to fire some employees and lower benefits and make the remaining employees work even harder to pick up the slack.

It's a shell game; not some utopia lifting people out of poverty.

originally posted by: Unknownparadox
I want to see the actual math on that. Pardon me if I don't take your word for it. But beside that, it sounds like a excuse as to why, billionaires should be billionaires, and the people making them billionaires, shouldn't ask for a dime more than what they get.

It is 3rd-grade math...

$50,000,000 / 200,000 employees = 250/ 52 = $4.80 / 40 = 12c per hour

5,000,000,000 /1,550,000 employees = $3225 / 52 = $62 / 40 = $1.55 per hour

If we increase taxes on the top 1% up to 90% it generates only 600 billion more per year and we spend 4.5 trillion.

600 billion / 4.5 trillion = 13%

a reply to: Xtrozero

If Bezos said he was going to sell 5 billion per year of his stock and give it to the employees, it would be 1.50 dollars an hour raise.

I did a little quick 3rd grade math on this, while on break, digging a storm shelter. Because some billionaire said, there was no global warming. Indeed it is around a 1.50. But not all his employees are full time. And there is a reason for that. So actually it would be more than a buck fifty. I know he needs that 5 billion more than the people working to make him billions. Just look how poor he it.

It looks like he is worth around 200 billion. His company has around half a trillion in assets. I can see where. He need that extra buck fifty.

originally posted by: Unknownparadox
I know he needs that 5 billion more than the people working to make him billions. Just look how poor he it.

It looks like he is worth around 200 billion. His company has around half a trillion in assets. I can see where. He needs that extra buck fifty.

I think my Boeing is a better example of the CEO with many top leaders giving up 50 million a year and it is 13 cents per hour.

I'm not sure why you are sarcastic about Bezos as he doesn't earn a paycheck so the lowest person in the company makes more than him. He has provided a great service, and his wealth is the value of the company, so that is a great example of the question of how does one compares that to an earned wage? He can't just cash out 50 billion, so it is just numbers.

Then we got the two big questions. How much is a job worth and what is a living wage?

No one can answer those and just play the Bezos is too rich, so he needs to give his wealth away game.

I'm not sure why you are sarcastic about Bezos as he doesn't earn a paycheck so the lowest person in the company makes more than him.

a reply to: Xtrozero
That's incredible you can even say that. So he amassed 200 billion by earning less than a 15$hr employee. You're just playing around right?
You might want to read this.
How to avoid taxes, when you're rich

Or this
Ten Ways Billionaires Avoid Taxes on an Epic Scale

The short and skinny is. Don't pay yourself a pay check, and you don't pay taxes on it. But I'll be laughing about bozo making less than his lowest paid employee for days.

originally posted by: Unknownparadox
That's incredible you can even say that. So he amassed 200 billion by earning less than a 15$hr employee. You're just playing around right?

What is your point on this? He is worth a percentage of his company. This is not employee pay, so my point is he is not being paid 200 billion. You do know Amazon pushed all pay to a minimum of 15 per hour 3 years ago and that has had an effect on other industries to do the same. Look in my area all those warehouse jobs are listed 16 to 35 per hour.

You need to explain why his company's worth should play into employee pay. Maybe it does, maybe the 16 to 35 an hour is because of that.

Again... explain the worth of a job and what is a living wage based on.

I still don't understand why everyone pushing this stuff is so stingy and stops at a living wage. People don't want to just "live", they want to live well. Why not a universal luxury wage. C'mon man, splain why not.

And I don't want to hear about how if you raise the lowest rung person, then you have to raise them all the way up the ladder. That obviously doesn't apply to minimun, so it won't apply to luxury.

a reply to: Xtrozero

I

This is not employee pay, so my point is he is not being paid 200 billion

You keep changing the subject. First you wanted me to believe bozo made less than his lowest paid employee. But yet some how amassed 200 billion in about 30 years. And almost a half a trillion in his company.

Here is what I know, I am sure you know it as well. Whether you will admit it it or not is a different story. Your employees are your most valuable asset. As without them, you're not going to be making any money. At least they are until automation takes over completely. As bozo can not do the all the jobs his employees do. Either you appreciate that or you don't.

Given the amount of billion dollar companies, subsidies by the government. I would say most do not. Of course I have been saying this for at least 30 years. Walmart or some other company, comes to town, the local and state government, gives them tax breaks, land, infrastructure. So they can make welfare jobs. And everyone cheers, at least the did 20 or so years ago. Now days they have caught on a little bit.

I would imagine bozo got part of the other bozo's billion dollar give away to the billionaires. You need to explain to me why we need to be giving to the rich.

originally posted by: Unknownparadox
You keep changing the subject. First you wanted me to believe bozo made less than his lowest paid employee. But yet some how amassed 200 billion in about 30 years. And almost a half a trillion in his company.

The original point someone made was how CEOs got paid so much more than the employees. I showed that even if the CEO and leadership team gave up their earnings it means little to the masses. You seem to want to compare the growth value of his company to employee earnings and it just doesn't make sense.

Here is what I know, I am sure you know it as well. Whether you will admit it it or not is a different story. Your employees are your most valuable asset. As without them, you're not going to be making any money. At least they are until automation takes over completely. As bozo can not do the all the jobs his employees do. Either you appreciate that or you don't.

It's a two-way street. Where would you be without a company giving you a chance and hiring you? Your Bozo created 1.6 million jobs, how many have you created? It comes down to what the value of the position is.

Given the amount of billion dollar companies, subsidies by the government. I would say most do not. Of course I have been saying this for at least 30 years. Walmart or some other company, comes to town, the local and state government, gives them tax breaks, land, infrastructure. So they can make welfare jobs. And everyone cheers, at least the did 20 or so years ago. Now days they have caught on a little bit.

First, no one is forced to work for anyone. I don't like Walmart and I don't shop there. About 46% of workers work in small businesses, so what about them... Like fast food. If there is someplace you do not like how they operate don't work there, period. If no one is willing, then they will change.


So, what is a job worth and what is a living pay based on?

You dump trash in an office building, what should you be paid and why?

originally posted by: Halfswede
I still don't understand why everyone pushing this stuff is so stingy and stops at a living wage. People don't want to just "live", they want to live well. Why not a universal luxury wage. C'mon man, splain why not.

And I don't want to hear about how if you raise the lowest rung person, then you have to raise them all the way up the ladder. That obviously doesn't apply to minimun, so it won't apply to luxury.

I keep asking what a living wage is based on and it seems it is much like your luxury wage scenario. People want a living wage that is based on the lifestyle they wish to have, so it seems it comes down to we can say they are living, but not as good as they want.

The harder path is to earn a higher living wage by building your skills and experience, but no... people want to cook French Fries and live the lifestyle of someone making 100k.

a reply to: Xtrozero

The original point someone made was how CEOs got paid so much more than the employees. I showed that even if the CEO and leadership team gave up their earnings it means little to the masses.

I interpret what you are saying as this. Two people are stranded in a desert island. One person has food and water the other doesn't. The person with the food and water thinks, if I share a little of what I have with the other. It won't make much of a difference to them. So I shouldn't share any.

It's a two-way street. Where would you be without a company giving you a chance and hiring you?

That's where you are wrong. Bozo makes his billions thanks in large part to tax payer dollars, using the mail and infrastructure, those worthless peeon's help pay for. I don't have time to research it, because I have to get back to my storm shelter. Thanks to lying billionaires. But I would be willing to bet he has had other government help as well. No it's more of a one way street, going toward the rich.

Your Bozo created 1.6 million jobs, how many have you created?

I love this particular tactic humans do. I need to have created jobs in order to point out the inequality of the current system. The supposed tree huggers, wouldn't know what do do without it. I don't need a new or better plan to stop global warming, in order to point out their plan is the opposite, of slowing global warming.

But for your information, I have created a few jobs. And they were jobs where the more effort you put in, the more money you make. But humans are stupid, they have a loyalty to people that treat them like garbage. So it's hard to find anyone.

First, no one is forced to work for anyone.

That's not correct, you take what is available, or you starve. You act as if everyone has billions of dollars, and can just cost until they find the perfect job.

So, what is a job worth and what is a living pay based on? You dump trash in an office building, what should you be paid and why?

If a job isn't worth paying a livable wage, Why have it? Just do away with it. Dumping trash is only worth 7 bucks a hour. Just do away with it. Problem solved, then you don't have to complain no one will dump your trash for nothing.

And you didn't explain to me why we need to give to the rich, so they can look down their noses at people the government didn't give millions or billions too.

originally posted by: Unknownparadox

I interpret what you are saying as this. Two people are stranded in a desert island. One person has food and water the other doesn't. The person with the food and water thinks, if I share a little of what I have with the other. It won't make much of a difference to them. So I shouldn't share any.

I'm saying a job is worth X amount per day and it doesn't matter what others make. We are not talking about coalmines getting paid in company funny money where you shop at the company store. I think the working model is all screwed up, and people are now looking at intro work as a career work. If you are 30 and still flipping fries you F'ed up in life, so fix it or go on living that crappy life. You should not say hey I deserve a living wage because I'm alive. One guy on the news said he had been delivering pizza for 14 years and it's about time he got paid more. A crappy job is a crappy job and pays a crappy wage, so I guess people don't get that.

That's where you are wrong. Bozo makes his billions thanks in large part to tax payer dollars, using the mail and infrastructure, those worthless peeon's help pay for. I don't have time to research it, because I have to get back to my storm shelter. Thanks to lying billionaires. But I would be willing to bet he has had other government help as well. No it's more of a one way street, going toward the rich.

Once again you are not putting a value to a service. You just seem to be angry because you do not get a piece of others' pie without thinking hey maybe I should earn my money. Billionaires effect you and me very little in life, so maybe look close to home and take care there.

I love this particular tactic humans do. I need to have created jobs in order to point out the inequality of the current system. The supposed tree huggers, wouldn't know what do do without it. I don't need a new or better plan to stop global warming, in order to point out their plan is the opposite, of slowing global warming.

Lol what is up with your global warming... We talked about how 46% of work is in small businesses where there are no millionaires as everyone including the owner is working. We talked about a huge company like Boeing where the CEO makes a few million and another 10 million in stock, and for him to make nothing is pennies to the working force. The CEO of Walmart makes 4 million and 19 million in stock what do you want him to do take zero income to give everyone on the lower scale a penny raise? I'm starting to think you are looking for a fully socialized system.

But for your information, I have created a few jobs. And they were jobs where the more effort you put in, the more money you make. But humans are stupid, they have a loyalty to people that treat them like garbage. So it's hard to find anyone.

I think many jobs are like that, but you also need to understand that many put in minimal effort in their job and their life. What you seem to focus on is such a small percentage of people like .0000000000001%. Only 23,000 households reported 10 million or more. These are extremely small percentages that you worry about.

That's not correct, you take what is available, or you starve. You act as if everyone has billions of dollars, and can just cost until they find the perfect job.

Finally, we agree on something. I just moved last year 3000 miles to a new job. I would not work for Walmart and that is my point. No one is forcing you to work for a crappy company, one you think sucks like Amazon because Bezos doesn't dump his stock and give to the workers even though he basically created the 15+ per hour minimum.

The better job comes with building skills and experience. Tesla pays 50k to 100s of thousands for their 20k employees is that wrong since Musk flips back and forth with Bezos? I guess I just do not understand your point anymore. Do rich people provide jobs for people, or do they hold people back from getting a good-paying job? I work for an LLC now and the CEO is rich, I really don't care what he has or makes as I get paid well and I hope his vision takes us father as a company for my security.

If a job isn't worth paying a livable wage, Why have it? Just do away with it. Dumping trash is only worth 7 bucks a hour. Just do away with it. Problem solved, then you don't have to complain no one will dump your trash for nothing.

What is a livable wage????????? What goes into that? A job pays what people are willing to work for. I'm not willing to dump trash even if it pays 100k.

And you didn't explain to me why we need to give to the rich, so they can look down their noses at people the government didn't give millions or billions too.

We didn't give the rich anything. Did you cut a check for someone rich? If they start a business and if the business is successful, then they just become rich because they own the business. Working for a wage will get no one rich, BUT it will provide a lifetime of income with low risk. How much of that income is, is on you, not a company.

What company did you work for that has made you so sour? I bet you didn't...

Lastly, explain what a living wage consists of? We talking about a single living one room appt, a car, a phone etc, what does that represent?

Most that can be classified as far left and lukewarm right are full of #$it.

It's supply and demand that changes wages not government edict as left does nor increase labor pool as lukewarm right does.

1982 or thereabouts time frame carpenters my area were at $21+ soon after illegals came into the trade and depressed wages to $12- an hour with blessings of lukewarm right and left who cheered it on.

A personal acquaintance about 15 year ago was paying living wages to five family men in masonry business - a flood of illegals into that trade forced him to lay off well paid workers and shut his business down.

I've example after example of this very thing in the following decades - left gets additional congress critters and voters, lukewarm right gets cheap labor.

End illegal invasion that depressed wages and see how that goes.

In area I'm at fast food had to raise rates WITHOUT government edict when labor was short just staff restaurants.

originally posted by: Phoenix

In area I'm at fast food had to raise rates WITHOUT government edict when labor was short just staff restaurants.

That there is the truth. Supply and demand. Today is a great time to become a pilot. Airlines are hiring just about everyone as the industry has grown old and people are on forced retirement at 65. Go back 20 years and interviews were hard with a few simulator evaluations to get pay that was 1/3 of older pilots in a different pay group.

It was a long, hard, and expensive road to become a pilot and the brass ring at the end was very dull. Today they put a mirror up to your face and if they see fog you are hired. The pay scale is extremely good now as you work up to 300k+ per year.

Years ago in WA, many places started paying 16+ per hour to get people to work at fast food, so it is supply and demand.